DominicCobb

I’m very much down for this. Little surprised that it seems to be honed in on a single character rather than an ensemble, which I assumed would be the case. I feel like that makes me more interested, but who knows, we’ll see.

NeverarGreat said:

I will follow Kylo’s career with great interest. But it’s notable in how he has changed (or rather, not changed) so far. We haven’t seen him as anything other than a tormented soul in either of these movies. Compared to Vader, who went from a ‘Leave it to Beaver’ kid to a Republic hero to a genocidal monster to a repentant soul, and Kylo hasn’t really moved from his angst at all. Granted much of Vader’s other aspects arrived with ROTJ, but Kylo’s biggest change has been going from wanting to destroy the Republic to wanting to destroy the First Order too.

Well, besides the fact that I disagree with the assessment that he hasn’t changed that much, you have to admit you’re comparing 2 apples with 6 oranges here.

Jeebus said:

DominicCobb said:

Jeebus said:

I think he was a good villain in TFA, and a great villain in TLJ right up until Rey runs away from him and he takes over the First Order. Frankly, once it was clear that he wasn’t going to team up with Rey, I lost a lot of interest in the character. There was a real opportunity to develop Kylo’s character into something we’ve never seen before in having him team up with Rey and become something beyond just a Jedi or a Sith, but it just… didn’t happen. I don’t know if Johnson wasn’t confident enough to bring the story in that direction or what happened, but I definitely feel like it was a missed opportunity. And it’s certainly possible that Johnson never intended to do that with Kylo’s character at all, but I’d argue that if that’s the case, then maybe the idea just shouldn’t have been brought up in the first place. It seems like a really good way to set the audience up for disappointment and not much else.

Well I think the set up is quite necessary for what Johnson is going for. They have a chance to team up and both want to, but the reasons why they can’t is very telling for their characters and the direction they’re going in (not to mention the thematic thrust of the story).

I think you got a lot more out of the scene than I did. I’ll have to keep this in mind for the next time I watch TLJ, see how my perspective changes.

I remember the first time I saw it I was very much hopeful of the team up too, and somewhat disappointed with Kylo’s reluctance. But then when he started talking it became obvious to me that this was the right way to go. I definitely think that anticipatory build up is intentional on Johnson’s part. He wants you to identify with Rey here, he wants you to be just as devastated as Rey is when she realizes he isn’t going to help her save the rebel fleet. This is her moment of failure, where she realizes she’s going to have to do it herself.

With Kylo, he’s trying to take control over his life. Which is what he thought he was doing when he turned to Snoke, but I think, with the help of his father he realized he was just being used. For Rey and Kylo, both of their stories are about self actualizing and making their own destiny beyond what was seemingly set forth in front of them. So when they meet up, it’s the crux of both of their stories converging. They have the power in that moment to finally move away from the past (which has trapped both of them for so long) and forge their own paths. Kylo chooses to “kill the past,” and he makes his case for Rey to do the same. She comes from “nothing,” she has “no place in the story,” but he offers her one on a silver platter. So for Rey, it’s a very important moment for Kylo as an antagonist. He stands in direct opposition to her external goal of saving the fleet but is offering her what she’s wanted all along. For her to reject Kylo’s team up, which is the whole reason she went the Supremacy in the first place, is a big deal for her story - not only is she going to finally move ahead by herself while believing in her own power to do so, she’s going to bring some of the past along with her, and not just blindly destroy it all like he will.

I don’t know, it works for me.

I’d say I’m apprehensive about the future of Kylo’s character. I’m sure he’ll still be an interesting enough character in the next movie, and there’s no doubt in my mind that he’ll be well-acted, but I fear he’ll never reach that height of “depth” again.

I don’t think the depth went anywhere. If anything there’s moreso than before. Kylo has a “resolve” at the end of TLJ and has become the Vader figure he alternately wanted to or didn’t want to be, but it’s all a sham. He still doesn’t know what he wants, he’s still just a tormented soul. At the end he’s essentially got a whole galaxy that’s his, but he’s clearly just as alone as ever and not any happier than before. In my mind, the fact that even after he’s yelled and screamed that he’ll “destroy” Rey he still looks at her hopefully in their final Force time shows that the “depth” in him is very much alive.

Good point, and you’re right, there’s definitely plenty of room for the character to grow. I hadn’t considered the possibility of the next movie exploring Kylo’s dissatisfaction with his newfound power, I kind of assumed he’d turn into just another bad guy. I guess I should have more faith in JJ.

I have faith in JJ, and would personally be surprised if he didn’t go this route in IX, but even still I try not to hold specific expectations for what should or shouldn’t happen. If there’s a way to make an actually good Kylo story where he’s legitimately satisfied with his newfound power, I’m all for it, even if it’s not what I’m expecting. But… if I were a betting man I’d say that’s unlikely (both that that’s the direction they’d go in and that if they do that it would turn out well).

All that said; in a vacuum where there’s no third movie, I still think the idea of Rey and Kylo teaming up could’ve been really interesting to explore.

I agree, if TLJ were the conclusion to the Skywalker saga, it would have made a pretty cool finale. Even still, though, there’s something about that last moment with Kylo and the dice that feels right to me. Reminds me of the last scene of the Godfather Part II. Hopefully, Episode IX will justify its existence more than Godfather Part III.

ChainsawAsh said:

Finally saw it myself.

It was decent.

Might have more on it later, but eh. Dunno what more I’d have to say.

Maybe reading up on all the spoilers when it came out and seeing some of the deleted scenes on YouTube before watching the movie took some of the wind out of its sails, I dunno.

It’s a movie that improves on repeat viewings I think. I’s story is fairly uneventful so it doesn’t really have much in the way of surprises or the highs that the other films are known for. But it’s just a pleasant and enjoyable ride to go back to when you feel in the mood. I watched it when I bought the Blu-ray, and if I hadn’t started it late at night, I probably would’ve just hit play again once it was done.

It’s not much special, but I think it’s a reliable good time nonetheless.

snooker said:

DominicCobb said:

snooker said:

DominicCobb said:

snooker said:

IT’S BACK!

https://vimeo.com/292649488

Remember to turn on subtitles, and watch in 1080p 😃

Beyond the color correction, have you applied any sort of sharpening effect? Or is that just the grain I’m noticing? Looks good.

There is some sharpening, yes.

Interesting, what program do you use?

I use Hitfilm 4 Express.

Right, I feel like you’ve told me this before.

pleasehello said:

snooker said:

DominicCobb said:

pleasehello said:

screams in the void said:

I wonder if some were in this very thread that seemed to come out of the woodwork , think I may have come across a few on Facebook as well …https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-last-jedi-was-targeted-by-russian-trolls-study-says-1148475

“Star Wars has always been politically left-leaning.”

If you consider anything to the left of Nazism as “politically left-leaning” then I guess this statement is true.

Well Lucas is openly left leaning, so if his biases slipped in that’s the way it’s go. And he’s on record as saying the original films were a comment on Nixon and Vietnam, amongst other things. Whether the politics actually make it through in the film is up for debate, but I think the argument that the ST is significantly more politically biased than the OT is not accurate, mostly because I don’t actually think the ST is all that political (the most commonly cited factor, a diverse cast, should not be considered a political statement in my mind).

+10000

That’s a bit excessive, don’t you think 😉

Yes, of course George Lucas is openly left-leaning, but to state so matter-of-factly that Star Wars has obviously always been that way I think is a reach. You have to look really hard to find political commentary or real-world parallels in the OT. Of course there are little things here and there in the prequels. And while I agree that casting a female lead and ethnic minorities does not really make the TFA politically progressive (which the study in question suggests), TLJ does make some very obvious (painfully so at times) social and political commentary.

All this to say that sometimes Star Wars gets political, but to say it has been from the start seems like a bit of a retcon.

Well if it’s a retcon, it’s one made by Lucas first and foremost (which admittedly is in character for him). However, based on my readings on the films’ development and construction, I seem to recall it being something very much on his mind while making the films, but I’d have to check to make sure when the comments saying such were made.

And while I’d agree that TLJ makes some social and political commentary, I’d call it very much the kind of inoffensive and non-controversial sort of commentary that you couldn’t exclusively specify as “left leaning” - there aren’t many who disagree with the standpoints that profiting off war and abusing animals is bad (especially seemingly semi-sentient ones at that), and I don’t think the idea that the film has a “man-hating” streak is in any way accurate (as has been argued ad nauseam here).

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

Warbler said:

If I have made false claims of harassment, please tell me names and times that I did it and links if possible.

It might be wise to continue the conversation in this thread:

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Give-Warbler-Feedback/id/59418/page/2

Oh it works just fine in here.

If you wish, I just feared we may have gone too far in the direction of derailing this thread.

I assure you any derailment like this is entirely on topic for this thread.

Warbler said:

Warbler said:

If I have made false claims of harassment, please tell me names and times that I did it and links if possible.

It might be wise to continue the conversation in this thread:

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Give-Warbler-Feedback/id/59418/page/2

Oh it works just fine in here.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t really see the issue with the study. It’s says ten percent of the negative tweets are troll/bots/bigots, which is only half of critical audience. So if anything the critics should be happy that’s it’s validating them… but no, of course this study is just saying “everybody” is racist/sexist. Sure. I don’t see the problem with Rian Johnson retweeting it either, I think he literally stated that it supports what he’s been saying that it’s only a small percentage that sends him stuff like that (this study is after all focused entirely on tweets directed at him).

Also, Collipso, potentially buying bots and actually buying off professional real life movie critics are such incredibly different things in so many ways that I can’t imagine why anyone would think one proves the other.

I also don’t have a problem with the study. I take issue with the conclusions that are drawn based on the select few who sent tweets to RJ, and the use this group as some accurate representation of the fandom in general. I take issue with his “political” category, which equates political affiliations (oddly restricted to right wing politics) with active political messaging and subversion, which is presented as some sort of proof, that the backlash isn’t real, mostly Trump supporters, bigots, and Russian bots.

Well I don’t think the study is perfect either, obviously it’s an incredibly small and specific sample set, plus there’s a response bias that tends towards the extremes. But I still think it’s an interesting curiosity, insofar as a comprehensive study would be impossible this provides a decent snapshot.

I still don’t understand why you say it “proves the backlash isn’t real, mostly bots and trolls and such,” because that isn’t what it proves at all.

pleasehello said:

screams in the void said:

I wonder if some were in this very thread that seemed to come out of the woodwork , think I may have come across a few on Facebook as well …https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-last-jedi-was-targeted-by-russian-trolls-study-says-1148475

“Star Wars has always been politically left-leaning.”

If you consider anything to the left of Nazism as “politically left-leaning” then I guess this statement is true.

Well Lucas is openly left leaning, so if his biases slipped in that’s the way it’d go. And he’s on record as saying the original films were a comment on Nixon and Vietnam, amongst other things. Whether the politics actually make it through in the film is up for debate, but I think the argument that the ST is significantly more politically biased than the OT is not accurate, mostly because I don’t actually think the ST is all that political (the most commonly cited factor, a diverse cast, should not be considered a political statement in my mind).

I don’t really see the issue with the study. It’s says ten percent of the negative tweets are troll/bots/bigots, which is only half of critical audience. So if anything the critics should be happy that’s it’s validating them… but no, of course this study is just saying “everybody” is racist/sexist. Sure. I don’t see the problem with Rian Johnson retweeting it either, I think he literally stated that it supports what he’s been saying that it’s only a small percentage that sends him stuff like that (this study is after all focused entirely on tweets directed at him).

Also, Collipso, potentially buying bots and actually buying off professional real life movie critics are such incredibly different things in so many ways that I can’t imagine why anyone would think one proves the other.

Jeebus said:

I think he was a good villain in TFA, and a great villain in TLJ right up until Rey runs away from him and he takes over the First Order. Frankly, once it was clear that he wasn’t going to team up with Rey, I lost a lot of interest in the character. There was a real opportunity to develop Kylo’s character into something we’ve never seen before in having him team up with Rey and become something beyond just a Jedi or a Sith, but it just… didn’t happen. I don’t know if Johnson wasn’t confident enough to bring the story in that direction or what happened, but I definitely feel like it was a missed opportunity. And it’s certainly possible that Johnson never intended to do that with Kylo’s character at all, but I’d argue that if that’s the case, then maybe the idea just shouldn’t have been brought up in the first place. It seems like a really good way to set the audience up for disappointment and not much else.

Well I think the set up is quite necessary for what Johnson is going for. They have a chance to team up and both want to, but the reasons why they can’t is very telling for their characters and the direction they’re going in (not to mention the thematic thrust of the story). He easily could have had the two team up, but I feel like that would’ve pretty much zapped both’s main conflicts right then and there.

I’d say I’m apprehensive about the future of Kylo’s character. I’m sure he’ll still be an interesting enough character in the next movie, and there’s no doubt in my mind that he’ll be well-acted, but I fear he’ll never reach that height of “depth” again.

I don’t think the depth went anywhere. If anything there’s moreso than before. Kylo has a “resolve” at the end of TLJ and has become the Vader figure he alternately wanted to or didn’t want to be, but it’s all a sham. He still doesn’t know what he wants, he’s still just a tormented soul. At the end he’s essentially got a whole galaxy that’s his, but he’s clearly just as alone as ever and not any happier than before. In my mind, the fact that even after he’s yelled and screamed that he’ll “destroy” Rey he still looks at her hopefully in their final Force time shows that the “depth” in him is very much alive.

The question of whether he is a good “villain” doesn’t interest me as much as whether a good antogonist, which I’d say he is absolutely. His weak villainy or potential entire lack thereof is exactly what makes him interesting as a character. He’s just as unsure about his place in the universe as Rey, which makes him a good foil for her when he makes the wrong choices.

Besides that, whether “weak” or not he’s obviously very dangerous, and unpredictably so. His emotions allow him to make mistakes sure, some of which benefit the heroes, but many of which don’t. In some ways a Vader or a Maul is quite a bit less scary, because you know exactly what they want.

snooker said:

DominicCobb said:

snooker said:

IT’S BACK!

https://vimeo.com/292649488

Remember to turn on subtitles, and watch in 1080p 😃

Beyond the color correction, have you applied any sort of sharpening effect? Or is that just the grain I’m noticing? Looks good.

There is some sharpening, yes.

Interesting, what program do you use?

snooker said:

IT’S BACK!

https://vimeo.com/292649488

Remember to turn on subtitles, and watch in 1080p 😃

Beyond the color correction, have you applied any sort of sharpening effect? Or is that just the grain I’m noticing? Looks good.

Bump

37. Everyone needs to post only in off-topic
38. But the only thing we can talk about is how much the other forum sections suck

paja said:

This is the most off topic thread I’ve seen so far.

That’s what it’s all about here buddy

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

You have a thread seemingly open to arguments about the best time in Star Wars. (To be fair I know your question there was essentially rhetorical.)

I’m not sure what about the question was rhetorical, and my thread didn’t really have anything to do with the “fandom” or this forum. I don’t care about the concept of “fandom” and don’t personally identify with it. There’s a difference between the content and how the fans respond to it.

It was a thread about the best time in Star Wars, as I said. Or as you titled it, “Is Star Wars ‘Better Than It’s Ever Been’?” I took that in the same sense I’ve been using “Star Wars” to refer to the content and the fan response, the latter referenced several times in your initial post of that thread.

When I think of Star Wars I don’t really think of the fandom at all. The title wasn’t the best “time” in Star Wars, which would potentially imply that, but whether Star Wars is “better than ever,” which in my mind narrows it down to the content. I only talked about fans in my first post insofar as the general popularity of the series and hype pertained to my own excitement. I didn’t say anything about the community, if anything I was talking about how it’s not just an insular “community.”

From my second post in the thread

DominicCobb said:

suspiciouscoffee said:

I’d say it might be if every nerd wasn’t at another’s throat 110% of the time because of it.

That’s a very good point, though I guess I was mainly thinking content-wise. Certainly the internet discourse is probably worse than it’s ever been, though I’ll say my in-person discussions have grown and they’re usually pretty pleasant, even if we’re not always entirely on the same page.

I mean if you want to talk about the “fandom” in that thread that’s fine, but I was definitely coming at it from the perspective of the content, mostly because my own experience with the “fandom” is entirely nonexistent (I have had interactions with other people who like the series of course, but have no involvement whatsoever in the fan “community,” beyond I suppose being a member here, which I wouldn’t count*), and I myself have only been alive for roughly half the saga’s life. It’s hard for me to judge what I didn’t experience, but all the content overtime can be looked at easily.

*this conversation started about the quality of discussion on this forum as whole over time, which I think is only tangentially related to the state of the “fandom” in general at best

This is somewhat tangential at this point as I was responding to one particular statement of yours. You’re straining to say you weren’t speaking about the best “time” in Star Wars. You ask in your thread, “With that out of the way, has there ever been a better time for the series?”

You say you were thinking “mainly” about content. Fair enough, but you also had a full paragraph about popularity and excitement, which goes beyond quality of content. It can be related but isn’t necessarily.

And you wrap up with, “Whatever you think of some of the movies, this is inarguably an exciting time. Is it the most exciting time?”

So even setting aside “some of the movies” you ask about excitement.

Back to your statement: “Saying ‘Star Wars fandom was in a better place before Disney’ just seems outright silly though.”

As I said, you have a thread (at least partially) related to that question.

I guess I’d be curious to know why you think Star Wars fandom is better (or the same?) since Disney.

I only mean in regards to “best time,” that my phrasing for the headline was more specific. Obviously they are related concepts, I just feel like the way I worded it in my title seemed to pretty clearly (in my mind at least) imply that I was speaking mainly to the content. You seem to be anxious to prove me wrong, and I don’t know maybe what I’m saying doesn’t make sense and there’s no difference, I’m just telling you what went through my mind when I made the thread.

As I’ve said multiple times now, the thread as I conceived it has nothing to do with the “fandom.” I think that’s a different concern than “popularity and excitement,” those concepts pertaining to the general audience opinion (as well excitement having to do a lot with the steady stream of content and hype for the series), not that of the insular fan community. I feel like that’s the distinction that you keep missing here. I don’t care about the community because I don’t consider myself a part of it.

Making declarations about it being worse now seems silly to me because a) it’s nebulous and hard to measure, and b) based on what I can tell from fan conventions it seems like they’re having a good time, it’s really only the internet discourse that seems to have deteriorated (but as I said I don’t think that is exclusive to Star Wars and because of Disney).

I’m not sure what about this topic has so moved you to persist in arguing with me about the purpose of my own thread. If you felt so adamant that this conversation fit there, you easily could have posted it there (as I’ve now mentioned multiple times, it wasn’t what I had in mind for the thread but isn’t necessarily outside the scope of what I established).

Mrebo said:

You have a thread seemingly open to arguments about the best time in Star Wars. (To be fair I know your question there was essentially rhetorical.)

I’m not sure what about the question was rhetorical, and my thread didn’t really have anything to do with the “fandom” or this forum. I don’t care about the concept of “fandom” and don’t personally identify with it. There’s a difference between the content and how the fans respond to it.

It was a thread about the best time in Star Wars, as I said. Or as you titled it, “Is Star Wars ‘Better Than It’s Ever Been’?” I took that in the same sense I’ve been using “Star Wars” to refer to the content and the fan response, the latter referenced several times in your initial post of that thread.

When I think of Star Wars I don’t really think of the fandom at all. The title wasn’t the best “time” in Star Wars, which would potentially imply that, but whether Star Wars is “better than ever,” which in my mind narrows it down to the content. I only talked about fans in my first post insofar as the general popularity of the series and hype pertained to my own excitement. I didn’t say anything about the community, if anything I was talking about how it’s not just an insular “community.”

From my second post in the thread

DominicCobb said:

suspiciouscoffee said:

I’d say it might be if every nerd wasn’t at another’s throat 110% of the time because of it.

That’s a very good point, though I guess I was mainly thinking content-wise. Certainly the internet discourse is probably worse than it’s ever been, though I’ll say my in-person discussions have grown and they’re usually pretty pleasant, even if we’re not always entirely on the same page.

I mean if you want to talk about the “fandom” in that thread that’s fine, but I was definitely coming at it from the perspective of the content, mostly because my own experience with the “fandom” is entirely nonexistent (I have had interactions with other people who like the series of course, but have no involvement whatsoever in the fan “community,” beyond I suppose being a member here, which I wouldn’t count*), and I myself have only been alive for roughly half the saga’s life. It’s hard for me to judge what I didn’t experience, but all the content overtime can be looked at easily.

*this conversation started about the quality of discussion on this forum as whole over time, which I think is only tangentially related to the state of the “fandom” in general at best

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Yeah because with the prequels it was more unified that they were disappointing whereas with the Disney movies some of us actually like them? Yeah much more fun

With the prequels, I could dislike them without being considered sexist. I could be angry at Lucas and hate various characters without being considered toxic.

Forgive me if I’m misremembering, but I don’t recall anyone ever calling you such over your opinions on the ST.

Well, it seems like some think the only reason people hate TLJ is because they are sexist. No one may have told me that I specifically am sexist but it seems implied about all who hate TLJ.

No one here thinks that. Almost no one in general thinks that. It’s made up outrage.

Handman said:

And don’t forget Slow West, Bone Tomahawk, and I’d say Hell and High Water qualifies too. The genre isn’t dead, and hasn’t been for quite some time now. Maybe it felt that way in the 80s, can’t think of any that were all that great then, but the 90s were kind to the genre before it took a nap for another decade.

Looking at ones that fit the new sort of style of western that I’m noticing, I feel that Slow West and Bone Tomahawk seem a bit more traditional to me than the others, though I think Hell or High Water possibly qualifies though I feel like it fits the “revisionist” label pretty well too. If I was still in film school this would’ve make an interesting topic to write about.

Beyond that there’s actually a lot of recent westerns that I didn’t list - can’t forget recent sci-fi ones like Logan and Mad Max: Fury Road. I think the myth that they’re dead is a box office thing, but even then you still get stuff like Django Unchained every once in awhile (though for every one of those there’s a Lone Ranger).

Glad someone finally made this thread.

Random movie thought: I’ve been thinking a bit about westerns recently, and how this genre is supposedly “dead.” I feel like part of the reason is because many have too narrow a view of it (in that it needs to be set in the Old West). The truth is I feel like there’s still plenty of westerns being made, they just aren’t the blockbusters they once were, nor do they necessarily fit that setting to a t. I also feel like in general we’ve evolved beyond the revisionist western and entered a new style of what seems to me like I guess you could call the atmospheric western or something along those lines, where the ‘Wild West’ sort of setting is very much a landscape for an overwhelming mood of existential dread - I’m thinking about Hold the Dark, which I just watched, and Wind River, The Revenant, Sicario, The Hateful Eight, No Country For Old Men, There Will Be Blood - probably not a surprise that many of these are set in the snow.

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Yeah because with the prequels it was more unified that they were disappointing whereas with the Disney movies some of us actually like them? Yeah much more fun

With the prequels, I could dislike them without being considered sexist. I could be angry at Lucas and hate various characters without being considered toxic.

Forgive me if I’m misremembering, but I don’t recall anyone ever calling you such over your opinions on the ST.

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

Star Wars used to be more fun.

Considering this site was made in 2003, I don’t see how that’s relevant to the discussion.

I think the griping about this forum is silly, but Star Wars fandom was in a better place before Disney. It is also silly to pretend - pretending is all the rage, especially pretend rage - that the recent movies haven’t had a deleterious impact here that the prequels didn’t really have.

When there were no new movies out, no one gave a shit. I’ll give you that, the site was much more laid back because of it. Now fans are losing their minds every year because their childhoods are ruined. So there’s a bit more tension, as there’s much less consensus on the films themselves than with the prequels (where most everyone agreed they were bad).

Saying “Star Wars fandom was in a better place before Disney” just seems outright silly though. I’d argue online discourse in general has gotten more hyperbolic and polarizing over the years, which is a much bigger factor.

We agree on your first paragraph and on increased polarization in general. Both points I made in my fashion.

You didn’t really though? At least not in the post I quoted.

You have a thread seemingly open to arguments about the best time in Star Wars. (To be fair I know your question there was essentially rhetorical.)

I’m not sure what about the question was rhetorical, and my thread didn’t really have anything to do with the “fandom” or this forum. I don’t care about the concept of “fandom” and don’t personally identify with it. There’s a difference between the content and how the fans respond to it.