DominicCobb

I’m leaving town that day… I honestly have never been this upset in my life.

NeverarGreat said:

The second change seems anodyne enough, but the first significantly changes Luke’s motivation IMO since he now decides to become a Jedi without any information about his father’s wishes. Because of this, the revelation in ESB could have less of an impact because Luke is becoming a Jedi more of his own volition and less because he believed that his father wanted him to follow in his footsteps.

I agree it would change the characterization, but not by much. Either way he’s deciding to follow in his father’s footsteps. One it’s due to his father’s wishes, the other it’s him actively wanting to be like his father (in absence of knowing his father’s thoughts on the matter). Depending on how you look at it, the latter could actually be more devastating in regards to the ESB reveal. I don’t think it’s a problematic change at all (the alternative, if you’re considering the prequels canon, is a far more severe character change for Obi-wan).

Yeah part of me wonders why they couldn’t have left the “other” sister as a hanging thread even if ROTJ was supposed to wrap things up. Much like the “pass on what you have learned” line, it’s setting up Luke’s future adventures without necessarily requiring those adventures to be on screen.

I will say Luke getting angry about the sister certainly holds more weight when it’s someone he’s close with. As cheap and silly as making Leia Luke’s sister was, ultimately I don’t think it was a decision that lacked potential for compelling drama. It’s only a shame that that potential was mostly unfulfilled in ROTJ itself.

OutboundFlight said:

It’s most obvious in ANH with Luke and Leia’s reactions. In fact I think within the context of that film, Luke and Leia are meant to get together. Han acts more like a mature big brother who plays “cool” with Leia.

Best evidence here is that scene after escaping the Death Star where Luke asked Han about Leia, and Han says no chance, this is clearly aimed at a bit of love triangle. A naive, caring guy vs your typical detached, cool guy. Clearly setting up.

But something must of happened between ANH and ESB, because Empire doesn’t really seem interested in playing up a love triangle. Leia kisses Luke in that instance to make Han jealous. The entire B plot of that movie is dedicated to their relationship, so it’d be weird for Luke to just show up again. But in the same token they’ve already set up a love triangle.

Had ROTJ stuck to its guns with the original script, either Han’s death or Luke walking away to focus on the Jedi would have made a far stronger conclusion to the triangle.

I don’t think Han asking about his chances with Leia was necessarily setting up a triangle. He noticed Luke was interested and decided to mess with him. Otherwise, I’ll defer to my last post in this thread.

DominicCobb said:

When SW was written, the intention was that Luke and Leia would ultimately end up together (simply because that’s how these kinds of stories usually work). She’s immediately dismissive of both of Luke and Han, but quickly comes to respect Luke while the same cannot be said for Han. Except, Leia happened to have more chemistry with Han.

When they wrote ESB, they clearly noticed this, so they decided to add the Han/Leia romance with a strong love triangle in mind. This was prominent in early drafts and deleted scenes. When it finally came down to it, and the film was trimmed to what it is with extraneous bits removed, we ultimately have a movie where Luke expresses no romantic interest in Leia and vice versa, only one scene where Leia kisses Luke to make Han jealous (with any other romantic context for their kiss completely left out on the cutting room floor).

So in the end, yes, the love triangle never manifested. SW very lightly suggests that Luke and Leia might be a thing, but in the context of the next two films, it is much easier to ignore this and focus on Leia and Han’s bickering, which while not romantic in the original became such in ESB (which retroactively make them seem so in the first film).

DominicCobb said:

Hal 9000 said:

L8wrtr trims Padme a bit more than I have, but something about it feels a little quick to me. I’ll revisit this scene again soon and just give it a shot. And I don’t see it being possible to reinstate Anakin’s saber being destroyed without throwing R2 back in, too.
Sounds like going this route will be a compromise for sure, but at least it’s “hmm well that scene wasn’t very good” rather than that as well as “that fundamentally violates stuff that came before.”

I remember I found a way to have Anakin’s lightsaber destroyed without the droids. Wish I could be more specific but I haven’t worked on it in months. Maybe I’ll see if I can dig up what I have at some point.

Alright, keep in mind this is the rough, pre-rescored version, but it should give you a sense of how this could play out:

https://vimeo.com/342364204

nl0428 said:

I have a suggestion to make. I think Anakin’s line to Padmé, “If Master Obi-Wan caught me doing this, he’d be very grumpy.” should be removed. It’s quite a childish thing for Anakin to say.

I think that’s actually one of the few lines that’s goofy in an intentional, almost charming way. Coupled with cuts that make Obi-wan less actually, persistently grumpy, it’s just a cute, funny little line.

Fang Zei said:

Jesta’ said:

I would buy the set of if didn’t include the ST. It’s inclusion actually lower the value I perceive it to have.

Lucasfilm making us buy stuff we don’t want just so we can get stuff we do wouldn’t be anything new. See: the 2011 blu-rays that only included the coveted OT deleted scenes in the more expensive I-VI set and not in the IV-VI set.

Not to mention IV-VI were the SE. I bought that set first day it was released but have actually watched the movies in it so few times.

NeverarGreat said:

I don’t think the were meant to be heavy or light per se, just difficult to handle due to the energies involved. I imagine that it would be like swinging a gyroscope.

Yeah, that’s the Lucas quote, basically it’s not technically heavy but seems as if it is due to the energy. I suppose his justification for making them twirly weightless lightsticks in the PT is the same reason they’re constantly doing backflips - they’re extra superpowered Jedi or something.

Jesta’ said:

I don’t like the “heavy lightsaber” presentation they are deciding to copy from the Sequels.
Lightsabers are supposed to be “an elegant weapon, for a more civilized age”, as shown in the Originals and Prequels, not weighted sticks that are swung like clubs.

Wasn’t the original idea that they were very heavy? I could swear there’s a quote from Lucas or someone on that on something like the Empire of Dreams doc. I think the PT is the outlier in terms of how they are handled.

JEDIT: Okay so it’s Hamill quoting Lucas in the “Birth of the Lightsaber” featurette on the DVD (https://youtu.be/RIefj6dOhnM?t=213):

George was adamant these things were really, really heavy. That we couldn’t take a hand off, we always had to have two. It was like Excalibur - forty, fifty pounds of weight.

And then Lucas saying:

They were very powerful. They had a lot of energy in them. And so you worked with them as if they were heavy.

Hal 9000 said:

Interesting. What music do you have in mind for the factory? Or are you patching up what’s there?

The idea is to use John Williams’s partially unused cue for that sequence to patch up the bits that are tracked in from elsewhere (Yoda’s theme, the Coruscant chase):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAwXk_WcJKA

Hal 9000 said:

L8wrtr trims Padme a bit more than I have, but something about it feels a little quick to me. I’ll revisit this scene again soon and just give it a shot. And I don’t see it being possible to reinstate Anakin’s saber being destroyed without throwing R2 back in, too.
Sounds like going this route will be a compromise for sure, but at least it’s “hmm well that scene wasn’t very good” rather than that as well as “that fundamentally violates stuff that came before.”

I remember I found a way to have Anakin’s lightsaber destroyed without the droids. Wish I could be more specific but I haven’t worked on it in months. Maybe I’ll see if I can dig up what I have at some point.

Same goes for the battle of Geonosis plans actually (though my rescore won’t be as extensive, because I don’t hate myself that much).

One of the reasons I haven’t showed anyone my AOTC edit is because I’m not done yet, which is almost entirely because I’m trying to rescore the droid factory scene to make it musically coherent. Needless to say, it’s a pain in the ass.

BB-Rey said:

I thought Rose’s saving what we love quote was based on this bit from Irvin Kershner during the making of Empire?

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2381412/one-key-last-jedi-moment-seems-to-have-been-inspired-by-empire-strikes-back

I think Rian has said something to the effect of he wrote it before he read that book, but took Kersh’s words as some sort of validation he was on the right track. But I can’t find that tweet right now so maybe I’m making it up.

ChainsawAsh said:

There’s the Legends Expanded Universe, and now there’s the canon Expanded Universe.

If it’s not in the movies, it’s still EU, canon or not.

Well, if you want to get technical, “Expanded Universe” is a term that was created to describe specific Star Wars content. It’s a term that has now been retired, with LFL referring to all content now as canon (or universe) content. Obviously anyone is free to decide what is or isn’t canon in their own minds. And obviously people are allowed to use the term EU if they want. But it isn’t a phrase that is used anymore, and while one could argue that term or not, nothing’s changed, that’s not exactly true, as there is at least an effort being made to keeping an internally consistent universe (whereas when Lucas was in charge he didn’t care even a little). More importantly, in part because of this, the lines are being blurred. You can say anything that’s not the movies is EU, but what about Rogue One and Solo? There’s a lot more interconectivity now too between all mediums.

That being said, there’s definitely some wisdom to your kind of mindset. When it comes to the telling of a story that is explicitly a sequel to another story (rather than just another story in the same universe), what should be considered important to that story is what was important in the preceding story. In this case, just because one can point towards Ackbar’s expanded role in other content doesn’t mean he was an important character in the episodic saga that TLJ is a part of. On the flip side, non episodes could probably stand to learn that lesson (I’m thinking about stuff like Vader in Rogue One). If all of Star Wars content is supposed to stand on its own as content in and of itself rather than expanded material, they should try to use the films and their characters as a crutch a bit less.

sade1212 said:

Hal 9000 said:

More as a curiosity than something I’d actually want to see/hear, I wonder what sort of things could be done to the OT’s dialogue to better mesh with the prequels.

Being something of a prequel apologist, I’ve experimented with changing “Only a master of evil, Darth.” to “Only a master of evil, Vader.” (or even “Only a master of evil, Anakin.” - but I decided that didn’t work since it goes against Obi Wan’s certain point of view) and cutting “A young Jedi named…” from “A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights.” in order to remove entirely the implication that Obi Wan trained a man whose literal name was Darth Vader. I haven’t got the clips to hand, however.

At the very least cutting the first one is unnecessary.

I always figured cutting Obi-wan saying “I don’t remember ever owning a droid” would be helpful - even though he’s not contradicting anything it’s weird that that would be his response to Luke saying R2 was his property, whereas him simply saying “very interesting” would be rather fitting. By the same token, you could potentially change him saying “come here my little friend” to “come here my old friend.”

SilverWook said:

DominicCobb said:

SilverWook said:

Wedge was the first one to take down an Imperial Walker on Hoth, and he helped blow up the DSII, that’s not important?
Oh yeah, he also saved Luke’s butt in the battle of Yavin. 😉

No, those aren’t important. Cut him out and the movies are almost exactly the same.

I get why SW fandom overemphasizes background characters and bit players - these are movies we’ve seen hundreds of times so we know who says every line, plus EU/action figure/imagination potential - but when it gets down to the actual content I think fans need to remember to put things in perspective.

Blame Kenner. 😛

No I mean I definitely get it. Growing up with the PT was fun because it meant you became attached various Jedi through their action figures only to see them all be unceremoniously killed in ROTS.

SilverWook said:

Wedge was the first one to take down an Imperial Walker on Hoth, and he helped blow up the DSII, that’s not important?
Oh yeah, he also saved Luke’s butt in the battle of Yavin. 😉

No, those aren’t important. Cut him out and the movies are almost exactly the same.

I get why SW fandom overemphasizes background characters and bit players - these are movies we’ve seen hundreds of times so we know who says every line, plus EU/action figure/imagination potential - but when it gets down to the actual content I think fans need to remember to put things in perspective.

I mean obviously I feel for the actor, who wouldn’t in that situation. But at the end of the day, just because he’s become a meme doesn’t make him a character who’s important to the story. I mean, where’s Dodonna and Reikkan and Madine and Mothma If rank is so important? If fan favorites are so important, whether there’s a justification or not, where’s Bossk? Why isn’t he in the movie? At the end of the day, whether you got attached to the character because he’s got a memorable face and line in a movie you liked as a kid, or whether you were the actor who portrayed him, the simple truth of the matter is that he was always a bit role that was inconsequential to the story of the film (his scenes were literally shot in parallel with a completely different, interchangeable character saying the same lines). Anyone expecting more from his story in future installments is living in crazy land. Same goes for anyone disappointed that Wedge hasn’t had an important role in these movies - he didn’t have an important role in the last ones either.

I like the positivity of this. Will do what snooker did:

TPM: Anakin leaving Shmi - “Don’t look back” and that amazing Williams music is good stuff

AOTC: Anakin finding Shmi - pretty much the only real emotion in the whole movie, easily one of the best PT scenes

ROTS: Obi-wan and Padme’s scene together - minus the younglings bit it’s some of the best acting in the PT, and Williams goes into overdrive here (leading as well into the scene immediately following, with Anakin ruminating on Mustafar)

Solo: The one two punch of the Kessel escape and the Kessel Run is up there with the best SW action/adventure sequences

RO: I’m not sure but probably the scene where Jyn sees her father’s hologram - Jones’s acting and the intercutting with the Death Star sell what could have been a painfully dull expositional monologue

ANH: Kind of a lame answer but it’ll always be the binary sunset for me, followed closely by “Use the Force, Luke” - the two best moments in any SW film

TESB: Hard to pick but either when Yoda lifts the X-Wing or when Luke’s parentage is revealed

ROTJ: “I’m a Jedi, like my father before me” “So be it. Jedi.” - no explanation needed

TFA: Rey finding Luke, but also maybe Finn and Poe escaping the Finalizer - both provide an absolutely infectious level of excitement (for different reasons)

TLJ: Hard choice but I’d have to go with Luke and Ben’s confrontation - there’s a lot that it’s accomplishing, but deep down the kid in me most loves that it’s the ultimate fulfillment of Luke as incredible Jedi Master, and the adult in me is so glad that that’s done tactfully and cleverly

Since apparently Tatooine needs to be in every movie, let’s make Hoth Tatooine (wintertime, duh). Also I guess Naboo should just be Endor, and Geonosis might as well be Tatooine too.

LordPlagueis said:

moviefreakedmind said:

I personally would say that the droid assembly line sequence in AOTC is the worst sequence ever to appear on screen in a Star Wars film. It’s long, bland, inconsequential, and ultimately completely forgettable. Do you agree? What would you say is the worst? The Ewok movies don’t count, the Clone Wars animated movie or TV shows don’t count, the Holiday Special doesn’t count, and Rebels doesn’t count. We’re only counting the live action films: episodes I-VIII and R1.

The worst moment was Rose preventing Finn from sacrificing himself to save the Resistance so she could kiss him and say the most cliched line ever written: “That’s how we’re gonna win: Not by fighting what we hate but by saving what we love.”

The droid assembly line scene was no worse than the trash compactor scene in A New Hope. Both signify the “Belly of the Beast” stage in Joseph Campbell’s Hero’s Journey.

Yeah he definitely wanted others to do the PT initially (approached people like Kasdan and Ron Howard), which was kinda in line with how he wanted the SW franchise to be from the beginning. The problem was that the people he met with would just tell him that he should do it, which is a totally understandable response considering he would essentially still be the mastermind behind the films and at that point his writer/director track record was pretty fantastic.

Big picture wise it’s hard to argue that he’s basically some sort of genius. So yeah on some levels he’s a great writer, because he has amazing ideas for worlds, characters, story, themes, etc., it’s something he understands really well. And on some level he’s a great director too, because he knows what he wants and he’s great at communicating and working with the various departments to create this incredible world and build fantastic sequences. But his talent definitely breaks down on some level, and the human element is the best I can do to pinpoint it.

Omni said:

I’m sorry it’s taken so long for me to answer.

Skip ahead five years, and he’s moved on and has a new family. But the specter of that past failure is still haunting him. He still remembers that child he lost. What stops him from taking things too far this time, now that he not only has half the world to bring back but also a biological daughter to protect? This is something that has become his greatest flaw, and it should manifest most strongly in the character’s final chapter. Instead, that demon is dropped after that initial scene.

Yes, but that’s another bit of growth in Tony’s character. He realizes he isn’t always right - exactly because he failed. So the way I see it, his ultimate loss what overcomes the whole “suit of armor” aspect of his character, because it finishes the Age of Ultron arc for him where he made mistakes and started to have self doubts. But it’s only because he was still deeply affected by the battle and the weeks in space and in an incredibly fragile state emotionally that he brings it up in the Avengers HQ scene.

I mean, I wish I could agree. Infinity War sets up that the “suit of armor” aspect of his character is very much alive in his introductory scene with Pepper where they talk about the arc reactor-looking nano suit chest piece. Now, you can look at what happens in IW and rationalize it, saying “he’s got the best Iron Man suit ever, and it matters fuck all when it comes to facing Thanos,” and you can in your mind explain why Tony would realize that his obsessiveness was all for naught. The problem is, if we are to believe that was the conclusion Tony reached and that his character grew in this way, we needed to see it on screen someway, somehow (we can’t just be forced to assume it). Instead, the primary reaction we see from Tony in response to his IW failure is shifting the blame to Cap breaking up the team, and still believing that his goal to protect the earth was right. We jump ahead five years and he’s settled down and moved on, but within two scenes he’s already back to seeing if he can save the world. The film suggests that this demon that has haunted Tony has returned with that initial scene at Avengers HQ, but never really does anything specific to suggest that Tony has changed from then, so it’s sending mixed messages at best - why have such a memorable scene at the start of the film if it isn’t going to factor into the film’s characterization of Tony? The beginning of the film should be setting up the primary character conflicts/arcs that will take shape over the rest of runtime. Instead we jump ahead five years and potential growth for many of the characters are explained to have happened offscreen (e.g. Hulk) or, worse, you are simply forced to assume happened off screen (like Tony).

Granted two of the six avengers manage to get the happy ending they deserved and one gets to have a glorious moment out. But the other three and our purple friend are intentionally broken and rebuilt for the movie. But the fans still enjoyed the movie- suggesting “subverting expectations” can be done in a way that both surprises and pleases the fans. As I am sure many who enjoyed TLJ already knew.

I’ll save my problems with how the other three are handled for another day. I’ll just end with this: I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with fan service, and I think there’s certainly some entertainment value to be had from it, which is not nothing. My problem is only when the fan service gets in the way of the story; in Endgame, I’d say specifically where I take issue is the extended time travel shenanigans, which puts a few (not all) of the character arcs on the back burner for the purpose of a good time, and especially the final battle, which is basically pure spectacle that overshadows any potential for inner character conflict or deeper philosophical/thematic conflict and comes down to a very base level all of us vs. all of them, with the stakes being merely ‘win or lose.’

While I agree with you here, I think the way the Russos executed it was good enough to make me buy that all the inner and philosophical/thematic conflict had been resolved by then.

Personally, while on some level I enjoyed the sheer size of it all, ultimately I found the battle hard to engage with on an emotional level without any deeper stakes for the characters.

My favorite little moment is when Star-Lord finds Gamora. Or maybe when Cap yells to Spider-Man “Hey Queens!”

There’s a lot of fun little moments for sure, like I said I just can’t get behind the sequence ultimately because it lacks the necessary weight that it should have.

A script is more than just dialogue. Even if the dialogue is 30% Lucas it’s still mostly Lucas’s script.

One thing I that was crucial to the success of Star Wars’s screenplay was the multiple drafts of rewrites that were done not just to improve dialogue, but to streamline, simplify, and strengthen the story. It’s unclear to me how many drafts the PT went through but I strongly suspect there weren’t enough, considering how expansive Lucas’s vision tends to be (McCallum mentions on the commentary for AOTC starting shooting without a finished script, and Lucas talks a lot about various reshoots). This fact hurt the films and made them a little scattershot; but also in general Lucas is, as stated, not great with the human element and his writing struggles when it comes to dialogue but also the specifics beats of what make up character dynamics and character arcs.

ChainsawAsh said:

Wasn’t nearly all of ANH’s dialogue rewritten by Willard Huyck and Gloria Katz?

I don’t know for sure if it’s known exactly how much they wrote, but at the very least a decent amount of it was yes (not to mention actors rewriting lines on set).