He’s not a Sith, but Kylo did have a calligraphy set in his hut at Luke’s training school… of course he might have given this hobby up in his turn to the dark side.
Otherwise, in terms of what the films actually show us, we know Palpatine is an opera man, and Darth Vader likes to take his clothes off.
The thing that makes it plausible in my mind is they already kinda did the slow trickle of TFA deleted scenes (the physical release had a handful, the digital release had all of those plus one, and then the 3D rerelease had a couple extra ones). Plus the trilogy finally being over may make them less protective of revealing the might have beens (and, in retrospect with TROS, they were probably smart to do so).
I’m crossing my fingers they put that moment out for real at some point, maybe on the trilogy box set or something.
Alright, I’ll bite.
650m domestic, 875m international. 1.525 billion worldwide.
I’d up the domestic but lower the international. Keep worldwide about the same, maybe lower.
In regards to why she changed out of the tactical wardrobe, I believe Carrie Fisher requested it.
The poster that leaked a couple months ago is official. Some pictures of it can be found on new TROS merchandise yet the only change I’ve noticed is one that was pointed out to me and it’s Rose Tico in place of the weird alien Klaud
Which basically confirms everyone’s suspicions that it’s not the theatrical poster, but merchandizing art.
Looking back at this thread, three and some years on, I think we can probably safely put to rest that the new Williams themes aren’t hummable/memorable? I think Rey’s theme, Kylo’s themes, and the Resistance march have all joined the pantheon of all-time great Star Wars music. Maybe there’s a nit to pick with the mix, but in terms of things TFA nailed, I think the music in general is near the top.
Not necessarily on Fox’s dime but Broom Kid is essentially right anyway - the 97 SE were theatrical rereleases that made a ton of money so a bigger budget was justified. But I wouldn’t call them “edits” or “fixes” though. The edit of the films are virtually the same (only a couple very minor additions). And “fix” might not be the right word, more like “upgrade.” They were just the same movies with new effects (and, yes, a few edits and fixes).
Yeah, I just looked at the clip and I’m pretty sure this is Burnell Tucker in both instances. But the “It’s metal!” guy ISN’T the same Rebel as “Enemy Fighters” guy?
Star Wars
https://youtu.be/2WBG2rJZGW8?t=246Empire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmi5sreXVMAIf they’re not the same rebel, seems like a missed opportunity.
FYI his “second” character in Empire is at the end of that clip, on the right of Rieekan. But yeah for sure, according to Wookiepedia I think the characters names come from the novelizations so probably at the time whoever came up with the names just had no idea all three were the same actor.
Only just recently noticed this in Empire, but I don’t know if I really noticed it or if I think I noticed it.
The guy in Star Wars who says “enemy fighters coming your way” is, I think, in Empire too? As the same rebel?
I looked it up and apparently that guy’s name is Del Goren, played by Burnell Tucker. IMDB is showing that Burnell Tucker is also in The Empire Strikes Back, and I think he’s the guy who is monitoring the Imperial Probe Droid transmission before Han and Chewie go out after it.
Okay this is interesting, I never knew there was any carryover in terms of Rebel extras. According to Wookiepedia, however, bafflingingly in Empire he is not only not playing the same character from the first film, he’s actually playing two different characters, both who aren’t his character from the first film.
Nice to see you again ender. I’m aware of how the EU portrayed things, but in regards to this topic, ady has stated he’s not taking that material into his account for his edit.
*If you are adding female rebel pilots, consider re-voicing a stormtrooper, or better yet a biker scout, with a
woman’s voice. I wanted to suggest that for ESB:R but it was too late.I don’t think the Empire is an “equal opportunity” kinda regime…
I don’t see why not.
Yeah. They’re probably a wonderful group who’s had their name unjustly slandered by those Rebel terrorists. All the Emperor wants is equality and happiness for everyone.
And these awful movies dare to paint the Rebel as heroes while the Empire is constantly compared to the Nazis. Shame. Coulda’ been a great series.Anything that makes the Empire seem nicer would be a welcome change.
I don’t see how Imperials drafting women as well as men makes them seem nicer.
But doesn’t the exclusion of women make them seem more sinister?
Is it really just me?I mean, if it was in contrast to a Rebellion filled with a healthy parity of men and women, maybe, but considering how few women are actually shown the Alliance, the Imperial gender makeup kinda just feels like an extension of the OT’s general, inadvertent sausage-fest nature (rather than an intentional, story-driven decision).
We see women in the Rebellion in many different roles. Spies, gunners, and even Top Brass. Ady’s returning female voices to female pilots. Sure, there could be more, but female representation is clearly there.
Let’s say we see about a hundred people in the rebellion total across the three movies. How many of them are women? 4?
We see MANY more people working for the Empire. How many are women? None. How many are alien? None. How many aren’t white males? none. The comparisons to Nazism aren’t coincidental.
We see women featured in important roles in the Rebellion, even if we don’t see many. RotJ in particular seems to hammer this point.
The vast majority of Imperials we see are stormtroopers so we can’t tell for sure either way.
As for ROTJ, I don’t think adding one more female to the Alliance leadership is “hammering home” anything.
*If you are adding female rebel pilots, consider re-voicing a stormtrooper, or better yet a biker scout, with a
woman’s voice. I wanted to suggest that for ESB:R but it was too late.I don’t think the Empire is an “equal opportunity” kinda regime…
I don’t see why not.
Yeah. They’re probably a wonderful group who’s had their name unjustly slandered by those Rebel terrorists. All the Emperor wants is equality and happiness for everyone.
And these awful movies dare to paint the Rebel as heroes while the Empire is constantly compared to the Nazis. Shame. Coulda’ been a great series.Anything that makes the Empire seem nicer would be a welcome change.
I don’t see how Imperials drafting women as well as men makes them seem nicer.
But doesn’t the exclusion of women make them seem more sinister?
Is it really just me?I mean, if it was in contrast to a Rebellion filled with a healthy parity of men and women, maybe, but considering how few women are actually shown the Alliance, the Imperial gender makeup kinda just feels like an extension of the OT’s general, inadvertent sausage-fest nature (rather than an intentional, story-driven decision).
We see women in the Rebellion in many different roles. Spies, gunners, and even Top Brass. Ady’s returning female voices to female pilots. Sure, there could be more, but female representation is clearly there.
Let’s say we see about a hundred people in the rebellion total across the three movies. How many of them are women? 4?
I think it makes more sense for stormtroopers to be drafted gender-neuttally, since they’re just faceless grunts that are nothing more than cannon fodder and sheer numbers would be more important than sexism.
It does make sense to me that no women would be in officer/command positions, though.
Certainly agree on the first point… but on the second, I think it could be a matter of debate if sexism even exists in the Star Wars universe? It’s definitely not something that’s ever explored. The EU made Imperial racial prejudice a thing but truthfully SW as a series has never really been about prejudice in that sort of way. There’s an argument of course that the villains are a mirror to the villains in our own world which is fair but, Devil’s advocate… the Empire being sexist isn’t a given.
*If you are adding female rebel pilots, consider re-voicing a stormtrooper, or better yet a biker scout, with a
woman’s voice. I wanted to suggest that for ESB:R but it was too late.I don’t think the Empire is an “equal opportunity” kinda regime…
I don’t see why not.
Yeah. They’re probably a wonderful group who’s had their name unjustly slandered by those Rebel terrorists. All the Emperor wants is equality and happiness for everyone.
And these awful movies dare to paint the Rebel as heroes while the Empire is constantly compared to the Nazis. Shame. Coulda’ been a great series.Anything that makes the Empire seem nicer would be a welcome change.
I don’t see how Imperials drafting women as well as men makes them seem nicer.
But doesn’t the exclusion of women make them seem more sinister?
Is it really just me?
I mean, if it was in contrast to a Rebellion filled with a healthy parity of men and women, maybe, but considering how few women are actually shown the Alliance, the Imperial gender makeup kinda just feels like an extension of the OT’s general, inadvertent sausage-fest nature (rather than an intentional, story-driven decision).
I’ve felt having even one or two female voice lines could help make it clearer that stormtroopers aren’t clones, because if you just watch the movies you might not know. Or even if the male voices could sound more varied and different than they currently do. But this is a nitpicky thing.
+1
exitzero said:
*Alter Vader’s line to say “Your Mother once thought as you do.”Alright, I don’t agree everything you said, but this one is something I wholeheartedly agree.
As far as I can recall, other than the damned prequels, there isn’t a single mention of Luke and Leia’s mother in OT. Which is kind of weird in a way and it would be really nice have a little mention like this.
I wouldn’t want Vader to say “Padme”, but a line like “Your Mother once thought as you do.” would fit perfectly.
I agree completely. Even if it’s not for ady, it’s a change I’d love to see someone figure out some day.
*If you are adding female rebel pilots, consider re-voicing a stormtrooper, or better yet a biker scout, with a
woman’s voice. I wanted to suggest that for ESB:R but it was too late.I don’t think the Empire is an “equal opportunity” kinda regime…
I don’t see why not.
Yeah. They’re probably a wonderful group who’s had their name unjustly slandered by those Rebel terrorists. All the Emperor wants is equality and happiness for everyone.
And these awful movies dare to paint the Rebel as heroes while the Empire is constantly compared to the Nazis. Shame. Coulda’ been a great series.Anything that makes the Empire seem nicer would be a welcome change.
I don’t see how Imperials drafting women as well as men makes them seem nicer. “Equal opportunity” does not necessarily make someone good. You can be an equal opportunity asshole, after all.
Well considering I’m nearing the finish line on ROTS, figured I’d finally share a cutlist.
(Keep in mind many - if not most - of these edits have been stolen from Hal9000, L8wrtr, aalenfae, and many others here.)
This post is subject to editing (for typos and if I forgot something). But that should be it.
Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.
And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all.
To me this presents a very narrow point of view, and just like much of Luke’s character development seems to be ignored, reducing him down to his mistakes at some moment in the past, so too the Jedi are reduced to their mistakes at the darkest time in their history. Like Luke there is much more to the Jedi than their mistakes at a specific moment in time. The Jedi guarded the peace in the galaxy for over a thousand generations. That to me is clear proof, that the Jedi code works, and that Luke in TLJ was turned into a fool, not being able to look beyond the flaws of a couple of individual Jedi, who by no means seem to be representative of the Jedi over their millenia long history.
I mean, yeah, Luke is looking at it the wrong way, and he’s ultimately proven to be wrong. But Luke is no fool. All we know about the Jedi is that they were the guardians of peace for a thousands generations, but even that doesn’t mean there were a thousand generations of peace. They were exerting their will of the Force over the galaxy. Luke only cites the rise of Darth Sidious and the creation of Vader (because these are things we can connect to as we’ve seen those films), but the whole point of him being on the island is to study the long history of the Jedi, and this is the conclusion he came to, that the Jedi must end. You can nitpick that they didn’t give you sufficient explanation, but in my opinion the implication is clear, that there are more flaws to the order than just the ones we’ve seen in the films.
Yet, Luke then changes his mind.
He doesn’t change his mind about the Jedi, he changes his mind about helping the Resistance.
Well, they kinda go together. He doesn’t change his mind and say “I was wrong, the Jedi aren’t flawed,” but he does change his mind about them needing to end.
This is shown very well in the Yoda scene. Yoda tells Luke that the teachings of the Jedi were flawed, and tells Luke to pass on everything he learned, both success and failure. Luke still believes that the old Jedi were flawed, but he decides to create a new order of Jedi, learning from the failures of the old.
Yes, but he doesn’t decide to build a new order, he leaves that up to Rey.
Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.
And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all.
To me this presents a very narrow point of view, and just like much of Luke’s character development seems to be ignored, reducing him down to his mistakes at some moment in the past, so too the Jedi are reduced to their mistakes at the darkest time in their history. Like Luke there is much more to the Jedi than their mistakes at a specific moment in time. The Jedi guarded the peace in the galaxy for over a thousand generations. That to me is clear proof, that the Jedi code works, and that Luke in TLJ was turned into a fool, not being able to look beyond the flaws of a couple of individual Jedi, who by no means seem to be representative of the Jedi over their millenia long history.
I mean, yeah, Luke is looking at it the wrong way, and he’s ultimately proven to be wrong. But Luke is no fool. All we know about the Jedi is that they were the guardians of peace for a thousands generations, but even that doesn’t mean there were a thousand generations of peace. They were exerting their will of the Force over the galaxy. Luke only cites the rise of Darth Sidious and the creation of Vader (because these are things we can connect to as we’ve seen those films), but the whole point of him being on the island is to study the long history of the Jedi, and this is the conclusion he came to, that the Jedi must end. You can nitpick that they didn’t give you sufficient explanation, but in my opinion the implication is clear, that there are more flaws to the order than just the ones we’ve seen in the films.
But why allude to some unknown flaws, deflating the Jedi as a whole, only to then go back to business as usual? That seems pretty pointless, to just use it as a plot device to keep Luke in one place up till, and for the duration of the story, have him repeating how he has good reasons for wanting the Jedi to end, only to have him recant, when it’s convenient for the writer of the story. That’s my issue with this kind of storytelling. There appears to be more to the story, but we are never shown. I just read a comic about Kylo Ren and Snoke, and there’s more development of both characters in those 20 pages then there ever was in the movies. Such character development would go a long way in providing some much needed emotional resonance to Kylo’s betrayal in TLJ.
What do you mean, “unknown flaws?” The flaws of the Jedi order were clearly shown in both the prequels and the OT. They considered emotion to be a weakness, they focused more on “maintaining balance” than actually helping the galaxy, and their blindness to the world around them allowed Palpatine to take over. And Luke didn’t just magically change his mind because the writer felt like it, the advice of his old master convinced him to put the flaws of the old order behind him and focus on creating a new order. I don’t know where you’re coming from with the “no character development” thing.
Not just Yoda’s advice (though of course that was the final thing that solidified his return), but there are many moments that bring him closer to his final change of heart. It is a gradual development that takes place over the course of the film.
Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.
And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all.
To me this presents a very narrow point of view, and just like much of Luke’s character development seems to be ignored, reducing him down to his mistakes at some moment in the past, so too the Jedi are reduced to their mistakes at the darkest time in their history. Like Luke there is much more to the Jedi than their mistakes at a specific moment in time. The Jedi guarded the peace in the galaxy for over a thousand generations. That to me is clear proof, that the Jedi code works, and that Luke in TLJ was turned into a fool, not being able to look beyond the flaws of a couple of individual Jedi, who by no means seem to be representative of the Jedi over their millenia long history.
I mean, yeah, Luke is looking at it the wrong way, and he’s ultimately proven to be wrong. But Luke is no fool. All we know about the Jedi is that they were the guardians of peace for a thousands generations, but even that doesn’t mean there were a thousand generations of peace. They were exerting their will of the Force over the galaxy. Luke only cites the rise of Darth Sidious and the creation of Vader (because these are things we can connect to as we’ve seen those films), but the whole point of him being on the island is to study the long history of the Jedi, and this is the conclusion he came to, that the Jedi must end. You can nitpick that they didn’t give you sufficient explanation, but in my opinion the implication is clear, that there are more flaws to the order than just the ones we’ve seen in the films.
Yet, Luke then changes his mind.
Because he is wrong about the Jedi and about himself. Changing his mind means allowing himself to be himself. Luke sees the legacy of the Jedi as failure, and his own legacy as perpetuating that failure. So he tries to move beyond his instincts. But though the Jedi often failed, it was that they kept trying to do the right thing that was important. Their failures are not what define them. Luke sees his solution as a long term play - if the Force were allowed to just be left alone, not controlled but any one order, then it might find balance and these disastrous failures wouldn’t happen. But the short term is important. People are in danger, and he has the power to stop it, so he should and he does.
But why allude to some unknown flaws, deflating the Jedi as a whole, only to then go back to business as usual? That seems pretty pointless, to just use it as a plot device to keep Luke in one place up till, and for the duration of the story, have him repeating how he has good reasons for wanting the Jedi to end, only to have him recant, when it’s convenient for the writer of the story. That’s my issue with this kind of storytelling. There appears to be more to the story, but we are never shown.
Because the story is not, nor has it ever been, about “the Jedi as a whole.” The story, in this case, is about a man overcoming his failures. The history of the Jedi is just a mirror to Luke’s own journey, to have him swear off the Jedi is for him to swear off who he is, because he believes who he is is a failure. But the lesson, like I said, that failures do not define you. When he “changes his mind,” it’s not him “recanting when it’s convenient.” It’s him finally overcoming his perception of himself as a failure enough to try once again (or do, as it were). To the extent that Luke’s journey has always been about “use the Force/let go/believe in yourself,” this is his ultimate challenge to overcome.
Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.
And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all.
To me this presents a very narrow point of view, and just like much of Luke’s character development seems to be ignored, reducing him down to his mistakes at some moment in the past, so too the Jedi are reduced to their mistakes at the darkest time in their history. Like Luke there is much more to the Jedi than their mistakes at a specific moment in time. The Jedi guarded the peace in the galaxy for over a thousand generations. That to me is clear proof, that the Jedi code works, and that Luke in TLJ was turned into a fool, not being able to look beyond the flaws of a couple of individual Jedi, who by no means seem to be representative of the Jedi over their millenia long history.
I mean, yeah, Luke is looking at it the wrong way, and he’s ultimately proven to be wrong. But Luke is no fool. All we know about the Jedi is that they were the guardians of peace for a thousands generations, but even that doesn’t mean there were a thousand generations of peace. They were exerting their will of the Force over the galaxy. Luke only cites the rise of Darth Sidious and the creation of Vader (because these are things we can connect to as we’ve seen those films), but the whole point of him being on the island is to study the long history of the Jedi, and this is the conclusion he came to, that the Jedi must end. You can nitpick that they didn’t give you sufficient explanation, but in my opinion the implication is clear, that there are more flaws to the order than just the ones we’ve seen in the films.
Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.
And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all, nor would I call any of his actions “stupid.”
In terms of regression for Han Solo - that’s the point of his story. Yes he’s gone back to do the only thing he was good at, but it’s a sham, and he knows he can only stay away for so long. Who he is underneath is a man who’s irrevocably changed from the smuggler we see in the OT. And as for Leia, did we ever see her become anything beyond a Rebel leader? You certainly can’t argue regression, maybe stasis in terms of status, but certainly I’d say her motherhood (and her explicit leadership of the Resistance) is a progression (for a character who never really had much of an arc anyway, unfortunately).
Broom Kid said:
The idea that Luke Skywalker became a depressive old hermit who checked out for a decade because he was so ashamed of himself and angry at losing touch with what made him “a legend” in the first place? That’s not blasphemy to me. That’s interesting. And the way it was done was not just sad, but charming, too. To a lesser extent, a similar thing was done with Thor in Endgame. And to a lesser extent, some of his fans reacted much the same as Luke’s fans have reacted: The decision to do it was, in and of itself, unforgiveable, and so anything built upon that (to them) broken foundation isn’t worth giving over to. All they see is the humiliation and the “disrespect” to such a strong character. They see that as a punitive act against their hero, and they basically just… stop there.I don’t entirely agree this is the case. To some sure, but to many others the disrespect is not in the humiliation, or punitive act against the hero, it is in the fact that they feel, it has not been properly motivated or set up. To them it’s like the story telling them, Luke’s different now, deal with it, and if you can’t, that’s your problem.
Well it’s a different way of telling the story. From go “what happened to Luke” is the primary mystery of the trilogy. It’s not like we catch up with Luke right away and he’s different, instead we’re gradually given more and more information about where he’s at (literally and metaphorically). The fact of the matter is the trilogy took a very specific approach with the characters - the new characters are the center and POV, and while the old characters pop in and get their moments, it is not a direct continuation of their stories from ROTJ. The difference in Luke is designed to be jarring and hard to accept, and in fact they give us an audience surrogate (Rey) to express this exact thing. You’re not supposed to just “deal with it,” you’re supposed to wonder why it’s happened.
Whether you accept the explanations or not is another thing. But I think Broom Kid has a point that many probably just tuned out entirely because they couldn’t get past something like the “disrespect” of him throwing the lightsaber. While others were a bit more open to the idea and curious.
For me it is similar to having the PT end with Anakin the hero, and then introduce him as Darth Vader in the next movie, and then show a tiny ambiguous flashback to explain how Anakin is suddenly an evil mass murderer.
Believe it or not, many wish this was the case (to preserve the surprises of the OT). Personally I think, being that the films were prequels, the point of their existence was to give backstory to the mysteries of the OT - but because of that, they should only be watched after. Ultimately the ST, whether one agrees with the approach or not, is designed to replicate the feeling of dropping into a story where we don’t know everything that happened beforehand - much like the OT did. I’ve said it often before, but I think the real title of TFA should have been Episode X.
@Dom, we should bump your thread back up and discuss what you’ve done and more on what the original scene order might’ve been. I’m still wondering if Anakin was late for the briefing because he met with Padmé, does that mean the entire nightmare scene was reshoots?
I probably should bump my thread. At this point I’m one quick pass away from putting a pin in ROTS and finally releasing it for real (not just sharing workprint cuts).
As for the nightmare - no, that was definitely done during principal photography. The Making of ROTS book is decently comprehensive in terms of what was shot when (though I couldn’t locate the balcony scene when I was just skimming through it). One of the things though with the reshoots is in many cases it’s unclear if the scenes were written after shooting finished or were written before but just always scheduled to be shot after principal photography (because there’s definitely some of both).
I will say I may be wrong about the briefing, considering looking back in the book the general structure of that act of the film seems to have been in place since an early draft of the script - reunites with Padme > Grievous arrives on Utapau > nightmare > Palpatine appoints Anakin to the council (the briefing is not mentioned but still) - plus Obi-wan does say “you deserve your glorious day with the politicians,” so maybe the briefing is supposed to be the next day after all.
That makes a lot of sense. Grievous receiving orders about moving to Mustafar always felt like it was moved up earlier in the film, since it’s a good while before he actually does.
Yeah, I was trying to follow the thread there to figure out what the original sequence might have been like but it’s muddied by what is or is not reshoots (if I remember correctly the balcony scene is one, for instance).
I feel like LOE reverts the movie to an earlier version, largely, and I’d love to see an older rough cut.
Same. At the very least I’m going to sit in my corner and hope and pray that at some point they finally release the Obi-wan/Padme deleted scene.
Re: Bail’s apartment, just literally last week I changed where that scene is in my edit to before Palpatine appoints Anakin, and I fixed that error by cutting the line and just having him say “Now the Chancellor has appointed governors…”
One thing that just occurred to me, not that it should have any impact on your edit necessarily, is that Anakin being late to the briefing must have originally been placed after he reunites with Padme (“I’ll meet you at the briefing” being what Obi-wan says when they part, plus this is the only thing that’d actually explain why they had him be late).