I have yet to hear a compelling argument against preserving Rey Nobody. Least of all from the film’s writers!
Well he didn’t want her dead. Finn confirms this, with the info from D-O that Ochi was supposed to bring Rey to Exegol. I guess you could say that he wanted to raise her as his predecessor but when he lost her he switched to Ben.
At some point though you have to ask if he just supremely lucked out that Rey came back into the picture by herself?
Honestly TCW was better when it came to fitting within the world of SW. You had the Y-Wings, the Star Destroyer bridges, officer uniforms, etc. Many of the designs that were new to that show fit a lot more within the OT aesthetic.
Even just generally the art style of the show had that tactile, dirty OT look to it.
You’re missing the point I think, taking things a bit too literally. The goal of the original Star Wars film was for you to feel the unique thrill of being dropped into a serial halfway through, but obviously it’s not exactly the same.
My point is mostly that in old serials, be it Flash Gordon, Gene Autry, Batman, Zorro, whoever, there was always the presumption, even at the end of the serial, that there would be some other threat, some other adventure on the horizon that they’d be there to stop. Lucas has compared Star Wars to James Bond a lot and it’s the same idea. Again, obviously rendered very differently.
My point is, that just because it’s inspired by Flash Gordon doesn’t mean you have to have it be just like Flash Gordon, or Batman. I think it should aspire to be better than those serials. And again, I feel like Star Wars was an amalgamation of many different inspirations, to the point that it became its own thing.
Like I said they’re obviously very different. I just mean in the very basic sense it’s exploring that idea that “there will always be bad guys out there,” as opposed to the ROTJ ending (especially within PT framing) which suggests the dark side has been destroyed for good. In my mind the first two ST films were telling a pretty quality story along those lines.
I’m fine with him coming back, but just having it explained that he survived ROTJ? That’s it? Luke and Yoda didn’t feel a disturbance in the Force during this time?
If the bar is serials from 80 years ago okay fine. But that’s a low bar to me.
I wasn’t talking about Palpatine coming back. You’re confusing my posts with yotsuya.
I don’t agree with everything your saying but it is important to remember Flash Gordon. Star Wars, like old space opera serials, is supposed to be a never ending saga, where we know no matter what the heroes will always be there to save the dar. If the evil can be defeated for forever, that’s it’s not really never ending is it?
This gets back to the fact that I fully believe that many people just fundamentally did not want to see movies made set after ROTJ, whether they say so or not. Simply put, to make a story set after ROTJ, you needed to undo that ‘happily ever after’ victory. What made TFA and TLJ so great is that they didn’t just wantonly undo it, they gave a thematic reason for doing so that justified their addition to the story. TROS… not so much.
But Flash Gordon didn’t go on forever. There were three Flash Gordon serials, with each episode within each serial only being 12-15 minutes long. Even the OT is split up into “episodes,” each film is equal in story to one full Flash Gordon serial. Not to mention, there was a two year wait in between the film serials, not unlike the OT. However, in the ST’s case, there’s been a 30+ year wait. So having the same villain as all the others feels much different from 30 years ago is different than just bringing back the same one two years later.
You’re missing the point I think, taking things a bit too literally. The goal of the original Star Wars film was for you to feel the unique thrill of being dropped into a serial halfway through, but obviously it’s not exactly the same.
My point is mostly that in old serials, be it Flash Gordon, Gene Autry, Batman, Zorro, whoever, there was always the presumption, even at the end of the serial, that there would be some other threat, some other adventure on the horizon that they’d be there to stop. Lucas has compared Star Wars to James Bond a lot and it’s the same idea. Again, obviously rendered very differently.
I think the purest, most classic narrative of the story is Rey’s descent to the dark side. She tries to take more and more responsibility on herself, and I got more and more frustrated (in a good way) with her failures the more she tried to take on herself. Her force lightning was such a powerful moment (despite the cheap reveal after). Then her darkest moment comes at the death star, where she throws Finn away and gets more and more angry at Ren, and as she goes in a downward spiral to the dark side she gets weaker. Ren is in total control besides a miraculous intervention with Leia, and Rey kills Ren at her darkest.
The best thing about is how those moments are all felt, not heard, and earned, not stolen, unlike most of the movie. That kind of characterization is what Star Wars is built on.
I agree. Arguably, of the three films where we see our protagonists unwittingly slip towards the dark (the third film in each trilogy), TROS handles it best.
In my mind Palpatine should not have returned and I doubt that’s something Rian would have envisioned as the conclusion to the story he set up in TLJ. I should be clear, just because I wouldn’t have done it doesn’t make it a bad decision. But again, when you’re at the conclusion of a story, you have to necessarily follow what’s been set up. I think JJ would argue Palpatine was there because it was a conclusion to the whole saga, and that’s totally fair. Maybe there was a way to do it that would have worked. But I don’t think you can look at what they did and say it seems like a natural follow up to the previous two episodes, or the previous eight.
Personally it seemed to me like Rian’s eye was very much on the ball for what the trilogy needed at large, in particular, he saw the trajectory the Snoke/Kylo storyline was on and decided to expedite that so that the trilogy would be forced into a position in the third film where it wasn’t just aping ROTJ (whoops). I think you can draw a line from that decision to not finding room for the Knights in TLJ. Rian made a choice to have Kylo forge a different path than what we got with Vader. Whether it’s what you or I or JJ would have done or not (and to be clear, it’s probably not what I would have done - that’s not the reason I like it), in the second film he very much had the freedom to make such a choice. The failure then ultimately I feel lies with JJ for refusing to “play ball” with that decision.
Ultimately I should clarify too that I don’t think JJ was under obligation to use certain “elements.” Like, honestly I probably wouldn’t have even cared that much if the Knights weren’t in the film? Just would have been a missed opportunity (so, no different than what we got). I think being bothered by that sort of thing is kind of the wrong way of looking at it. People complain about Phasma and say she was a waste, but I say who cares? She served a purpose in TLJ. Ultimately the problem is that the Knights in TROS didn’t serve a purpose. And JJ’s real failure is not that he didn’t follow through with enough screen time for them or Maz or whoever, but that he didn’t follow through in general with the character arcs and thematic trajectories from the end of the last movie.
Honestly that still would have sucked shit. I’m not sure in what way it would have been better.
No confusion as to when Palpatine procreated and with whom?
That’s hardly the worst part about her being his granddaughter.
The previous two movies setting up that Rey is “nobody”.
Part of the point of her being “nobody” is her being “random.” If she was created as a clone of Palpatine, then thematically you’re left in essentially the same spot as her being his granddaughter.
Her “cave vision” seeing a bunch if duplicates of herself would actually make sense instead of being imagery for imagery sake?
It’s not imagery for imagery’s sake, it’s playing on the idea of identity (a nod to Citizen Kane), her looking herself in the mirror, etc. If she was a clone that’d be a terribly literal outcome, no? Like if Luke was a clone of Vader and that’s why he saw himself under the mask.
I admit it’s not the most spectacular idea, but it at least makes more sense than what we got.
Truthfully it’d probably raise more questions (if she’s a clone of Palpatine why is she a she? Why is she in particular important if there are others? Why does she have parents?) and I have no idea how you’d accomplish it.
I really liked the fact that Leia became the master (though it’d have been more interesting if Rey didn’t have someone to guide her learnings), though it makes the fact that TFA never clarified Leia’s relationship with the force that much more frustrating. The fact that she was trained as a Jedi shouldn’t be a twist three movies after it happened. But then I do give some leeway because the execution comes down to circumstances.
I’m not sure I understand that reasoning besides the “upset at not getting what you want.” TFA introduced a lot of hanging threads that could go one way or another (JJ has admitted to wanting to keep things as open as possible for the next person). Rian was very free and open to do a lot, because of how open it was and because there would be a film after his. It would be unreasonable to suspect for the second film to cover everything, nor would that be interesting if all stones had been overturned. So it was 100% his prerogative to say “it doesn’t look like the Knights of Ren fit into this story in a satisfying way” (the irony of course being that his version of “unsatisfying” would have used them in a way that would ultimately have been more satisfying than what we got, sadly). But TROS is the conclusion, and so necessarily has to follow the dotted line of what’s been set up in the last two films without punting any elements for later as those two films had the liberty to do.
Using the Knights of Ren as the big bad instead of Palpatine seems so obvious it’s truly baffling it’s not what we got. The idea that they would have been too much to set up in one film rings false when TROS as is takes devotes nearly all of its runtime to the reestablishment of Palpatine. Not to mention the big bad in ROTJ doesn’t have a lot of screen time prior to that film either (not a perfect comparison but you get what I mean).
Ultimately intellectually I still don’t have a problem with a different creative mind taking on each film in a trilogy, but in the end it definitely didn’t work. Part of we thinks now there maybe should be some sort of continuity between part 2 and 3. If you don’t fully understand what the second act sets up, you can’t properly finish it off.
Can we get a much lower budget episodes 10 to 12 set 100 years in the future directed by Rian Johnson, with story ideas about the Force being front and center? The goal would be to explore the meat of the concepts we’ve been shown and about building the Jedi back up without there being a ‘holy crap bad guy uberthreat.’ Small scale, spiritual stakes on a personal level. Could be made soonish, with the ST characters all having died by that point, but could be referenced or perhaps shown in flashbacks. Luke and other Jedi could always pop in as ghosts, but this would have to be done soonish for much of that.
100% agree.
I’m hoping the right people can be like “well god damn, at least we can put it on the BR” rather than the wrong people being like “ don’t you dare” for political reasons.
This is my question. Do they think “oh the fans will be satiated if we put this or that scene on home video,” or do they go in the opposite direction “we can’t make the film look bad by putting out scenes that make the fans question our editing choices.”
I did a break down awhile ago, but JJ has gone so far as to include alternate (aka prereshoot) versions of scenes (including for the similarly maligned STID). But the TFA release is not exactly a comforting picture, as it’s obvious there was still a lot missing that wasn’t put out. Though I guess we should be grateful for anything.
Sure, but why not have it that her parents never came back? This genuinely feels like a mistake on Rian’s part, whereas almost all of his other departures from expectation were motivated by an important thematic reason. But regardless, we’re kinda getting off topic.
I mean, the line is basically just a way of saying “no one noticed when they died and they’re buried in the middle of nowhere.” Which is a way of selling home the point that not only did they not come back, they never can, and no one cares (except Kylo). It feels important to me, maybe removing “Jakku desert” would align it better with the ship leaving, but again it’s not hard to think of a way to reconcile the two.
We are getting off topic but I think for Hal’s sake it’s important to think of what lines should or should not be said in that scene with how the reveals in this edit will play out.
Kylo’s line ‘They’re dead in a pauper’s grave on Jakku’ makes me think that nobody making TLJ or TROS bothered to rewatch Rey’s vision from TFA.
At least with that one it’s vague enough you can come up with any number of explanations.
When RJ subverted TFA, he did so after having given it a very close reading. There is a great deal of detail carried over throughout. I do not get the same sense about this one.
Pretty much. TROS has a similar basic mentality (surprises!) but without any of the same kind of care to make them work and not have them undermine what came before.
One thing that’s really funny about this movie in retrospect is Rian said he didn’t want to make the throne room fight be with the Knights of Ren because there was the implication the Knights might be Luke’s other students which would make killing them off sort of morally questionable. That plus it would be anticlimactic. Glad he saved them for their big role in TROS.
Almost anything in that direction would be preferable to what was there, but yeah… pie in the sky it would seem.
Since Kylo was considerate enough to be wearing his mask, I wonder if his line “I never lied to you” could be replaced with something like “You were right.” It would be more consistent with the idea that he had previously only looked into Rey’s mind, and got her to admit what she already knew deep down. (And Rey saw his intentions about her and Snoke.) Stating he never lied would seem to imply he knew before.
It’s a line that definitely needs to be cut, regardless of parentage. Clearly it was a line made only for the audience’s benefit, based around a misconception of how TLJ played out. It was Rey who said her parents we’re no one, Kylo provided information that was a “lie” (sold for drinking money). Clearly just the writers being like “oh you think he might be lying? We’ll do you one better, he’s not lying and there’s more to the story” without actually paying attention to what happened. It’s one of the many things that make me wonder if they even saw TLJ. I long for the days of Rian Johnson, who I think outright stated he “forensically analyzed” certain scenes to make sure he wasn’t contradicting anything with his parentage reveal.
Honestly that still would have sucked shit. I’m not sure in what way it would have been better.
So is that the editor admitting that Kylo Ren’s was the primary character arc for not just this movie but the trilogy?
Where is she saying that? I kind of took it to mean not just Kylo but the Rey Palpatine thing.
I started to type out “or that Rey is ‘bad’ but because she had hope and kept an open mind she was ‘good’” but decided against it and deleted that, because that’s such a myopic/misguided read of her character I didn’t think that’s what they were referencing. Rey being descended of Palpatine doesn’t make her “bad” at her core/nature, especially since her parents were also not evil.
If the main point of the movie is 1-to-1 describing Kylo Ren’s character and arc it’s hard not to think that was the primary concern going into the project. What was said was :
Basically, the message of the film is, ‘Hey you know what? You can be bad and good can come into your life. And maybe if you’re open-minded to it, extraordinary things can change your mind. And you have to believe there’s always hope.’”
The message of the film is Kylo Ren’s arc. There’s not really any other way to parse that statement, because it doesn’t really track with anyone else. Certainly not Rey, because she was never “bad” and good didn’t come into her life, she was the good that came into everyone else’s.
I guess that makes sense, but I’m not really sure what conclusion you’re coming to from that fact. I doubt she even means that that’s the only message they were aiming for - in the full quote she says “In a time when the whole world is polarized, it should not be a film that is polarizing” before that bit. So I think she’s just highlighting that notion because she’s saying the film is promoting coming together rather than polarization. And that is an idea the film is trying to get at (poorly), working together.
So is that the editor admitting that Kylo Ren’s was the primary character arc for not just this movie but the trilogy?
Where is she saying that? I kind of took it to mean not just Kylo but the Rey Palpatine thing.
Because that’s…
Seriously, the inability to look at the story through any other eyes but those is a big problem.
I don’t really see how Kylo Ren being the primary character arc for the trilogy manifests in any of the films, and certainly not in this one.
Paxis had multiple sources (as did Making Star Wars) - the fact that leaks happened (leaks always happen, they’ve been happening on big movies for about 20 years now) regarding the plot of TROS doesn’t somehow lend veracity to this “leak” which has one single source and is very, very specific about a lot of details, and as such is very specific on how it contradicts itself.
This work of fan-fiction even makes sure to answer why those leaks were happening, and the answer it gave (it was studio-approved sabotage) is also ridiculous.
The Rise of Skywalker leaked because Bad Robot productions apparently are pretty leaky (you can look back and see this to be the case) and it leaked through at least 5 or 6 people, if not more. This is all coming from one person, unverified, who is telling a story so wild and contradictory and specific that it’s almost impossible to take seriously. It has an answer for everything, and those answers only make sense in a vacuum, because once you start looking at them as a whole nothing holds together. The story’s coherence depends on its reader being propelled by the feeling they get from “seeing through the lies of the Jedi” if you will.
Ironically - the story is constructed like a JJ Abrams movie. You’re so distracted by the latest example of “WTF now THIS is happening” that you don’t stop to look at the greater whole and realize that none of these stories really connect with each other at all.
Maybe JJ wrote it.
Wonderful trailer, Snooker! I love your grounded approach and attention to detail, so I’m definitely looking forward to seeing more of this!
Also I didn’t realize you could hyperlink images so A+ for presentation.
Definitely agree with all this.
Most interested in your visual changes. I think a couple shots in the teaser might be a bit too blue but otherwise looking rather filmic.
I plan on editing The Rise of Skywalker. I’m not so sure yet about the other two. If I did, the edits would be very minor.
This is where I’m at too. I’m curious to see what ideas you have for TROS.
After how the Paxis scenario played out I wouldn’t be too quick to dismiss this considering how much of an open book the TROS production has been.
I mean, I’m late to the Praxis stuff but it seems like all of those leaks were related to what happens in the film itself. This “source” claims to have a bird’s eye view of everything going on, including privileged meetings and the personal opinions of Disney execs, JJ, and the cast and crew.
The whole post sounds fake as hell. That isn’t to say that the stuff within it can’t be true, but it just plainly reads as pure speculation being passed as fact.
And honestly I skimmed over the WB/DC stuff the first time I read it. But that just doesn’t make any sense, right? Why would Disney sabotage the final film in one of their biggest franchises just so that it’s director wouldn’t look as hot when he took on his next project? Fake.
I mean, come on. Poe is clearly a cocky hero type in TFA. You’ll argue about anything, I swear.
And you’ll argue back, please be respectful.
I know, I’m as stupid as anyone. It’s all just fucking ridiculous.
That’s a running theme with you. Rather than just disagreeing with someone, and arguing your point of view, people allways have to have some kind of agenda, and their arguments are fucking ridiculous, or some other derogatory qualification.
No. No. The constant arguing is “fucking ridiculous.” I’m as guilty as anyone.