DominicCobb

idir_hh said:

I disagree, a story is like looking at a finished picture puzzle, the specifics are the pieces that make the puzzle, if you have two puzzles with different pieces but end up with the same picture it’s really irrelevant that the pieces were different.

But what you’re describing is that the whole picture is just the plot. That’s silly. The picture would be the story. The plot would just be what the shapes are that put the pieces together. But it’s a bad analogy.

Think of it more like a building. The plot is just the foundation. It’s what you build on top of that that really matters.

idir_hh said:

DominicCobb said:
I get what you’re saying and I don’t disagree, but for all intents and purposes the movie treats him like a good guy from that point on (“Kylo Ren is dead. My son is alive.”). His part in the climax is completely different than Vader’s, besides the mere fact that he sacrifices himself (which is done completely differently).

I get that the specifics are done differently but it’s ultimately the same story.

Plot =/= story.

Specifics are far more important than broad beats.

idir_hh said:

DominicCobb said:
And in some cases you’re even changing what happened to fit your argument. Ben’s ‘redemption’ comes way before he saves Rey from death.

Conversing with a memory of his father (in his mind) then throwing his lightsaber away is Not redemption, even if he felt guilty and regretful.

Redemption is earned through penance and sacrifice which I would argue he achieved at the end my giving his life for Rey, ala Vader.

I get what you’re saying and I don’t disagree, but for all intents and purposes the movie treats him like a good guy from that point on (“Kylo Ren is dead. My son is alive.”). His part in the climax is completely different than Vader’s, besides the mere fact that he sacrifices himself (which is done completely differently).

idir_hh said:

DominicCobb said:

idir_hh said:

I would argue that the climax of TROS is carbon copy of ROTJ with a different paint job.

I mean, first of all that’s basically the only similarity, so I don’t know how you can reasonably say the whole thing is a remake, you know that’s not true. Second, yeah it’s pretty similar, but “carbon copy”? Come on. There are some significant variations.

Regardless, it’s a lazy critique. Just because it’s similar doesn’t make it bad. It all comes down to execution.

I concede that the first half of TROS was mostly its own thing but when the climax is the same as the supposed ending we got 30 years ago I can’t see how it can’t be considered a soft remake if you remove all the austhetic fluff and focus on the plot.

• Palpatine (Big Bad) is about to unleash his planet killing weapons while he threatens the heroe with destroying her friends as she watches helplessly at the battle raging in the sky.
• Planet destroying weapons destroyed after the head star destroyer crashes down and explodes.
• Villain is redeamed by saving the heroe from death , then dies himself shortly after.
• Heroes regroup to celebrate and hug
• Montage of planets around the galaxy.

We’re on a Star Wars message board. I think it’s safe to say that we all noticed the similarities upon first watch. Running them down isn’t furthering your argument. And I think you need to look up the word “remake.” Just because 20 minutes of a movie follow the same beats doesn’t make the whole 2hr 20m movie a “remake.”

More importantly “remove all the aesthetic fluff and focus on the plot” is a terrible way to look at it. Plot is not story. And even then some of the points you’ve made are so broad it’s ridiculous. And in some cases you’re even changing what happened to fit your argument. Ben’s ‘redemption’ comes way before he saves Rey from death.

RogueLeader said:

Apparently AV Club is corroborating it as well.

Slashfilm too I believe. What is it with this movie and leaks?

Okay having read both breakdowns (I hope the script leaks so I can just read that), here’s how I feel…

Pros:

• Rey Nobody.
• Apparently a major role for Rose.
• Luke haunts Kylo.
• Palpatine isn’t back.
• Return to Coruscant Jedi temple.
• Rey trying to move beyond the Jedi teachings.
• Weird Force stuff.

Neutral:

• Rey becomes a grey Jedi. Would come down to execution.
• Rey getting blinded. Same.
• Kylo finds a holocron with Palpatine contingency mission for Vader to find his master.
• Most of the other things described. Basic SW stuff, hard to say.

Cons:

• Kylo Ren in general. Basically goes full evil. Apparently at the last minute he saves Rey which actually kind of makes it worse. Trash.
• Rey and Poe romance. Lame.
• Minimal Leia presence, and this is before Carrie’s death.
• Kylo killed Rey’s parents. Awful.

It’s a tough decision, but I’ll go with TROS. Kylo gets shafted in this one. Granted, Rey gets shafted in TROS, but it’s hard to know for sure if this script actually treats her significantly better.

That said, it’s important to remember this is just one draft of an ever-changing script. There would likely have been drafts before this one, and definitely after as well.

idir_hh said:

I would argue that the climax of TROS is carbon copy of ROTJ with a different paint job.

I mean, first of all that’s basically the only similarity, so I don’t know how you can reasonably say the whole thing is a remake, you know that’s not true. Second, yeah it’s pretty similar, but “carbon copy”? Come on. There are some significant variations.

Regardless, it’s a lazy critique. Just because it’s similar doesn’t make it bad. It all comes down to execution.

idir_hh said:

I like it very much, something character driven, fresh and new that respects what came before and builds upon it, not the lazy remake we got.

I could critique TROS all day, but I definitely wouldn’t call it a remake. The similarities are actually pretty minimal (though noticeable).

It’s worth still taking these details with a grain of salt, but The Playlist is confirming it’s real, based on multiple sources: https://theplaylist.net/duel-of-the-fates-leak-colin-trevorrow-star-wars-20200114/

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

What does everyone think about the idea of removing Palpatine completely? I posted some suggestions for it a few comments ago. Is it feasible or not?

Honestly I can’t imagine how that would work. Not that it couldn’t, but I can’t see it myself. So much of the film revolves around him it’d be very hard to do.

I posted a planned plot outline for a Palpatine-free version on the previous page. You might want to look at that.

I saw it. The problem is basically two fold. First of all, to shift the story like you want, you need dialogue that doesn’t exist. Secondly, without Palpatine, there’s no real climax. You didn’t explain how you’d handle Rey and Ben on Exegol, I think what you’re implying is they aren’t there at all. But you can’t rest everything on the ground and space battle, there’s really no meat to either, and they’re basically just a backdrop for what really matters, Rey and Ben vs. Palpatine.

I don’t know how you could erase Rey from the climax of the film and not have it feel like there was a lot missing. Maybe if you wanted to do a really short epilogue movie it could work, I don’t know. It’s an interesting idea but there isn’t a lot to work with.

StarkillerAG said:

What does everyone think about the idea of removing Palpatine completely? I posted some suggestions for it a few comments ago. Is it feasible or not?

Honestly I can’t imagine how that would work. Not that it couldn’t, but I can’t see it myself. So much of the film revolves around him it’d be very hard to do.

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

FYI for anyone looking to change things about the Rey Palpatine reveal, the two scenes with Kylo - the Force duel and the hangar reveal - are basically just him exclusively talking under a mask and Rey reacting (“No!” “Stop talking” “Why?” stuff like that). I’m pretty confident this was done on purpose because they knew these were crucial expositional scenes and wanted the latitude to change after the fact. But it also means editors should be able to mess with them pretty easily.

Yeah, that’s why I’m planning on cutting all of Kylo’s masked dialogue during the hangar scene. It should be relatively easy to do by using the “Join Me” track on the official soundtrack.

More than that, you can have him say something else if you want.

StarkillerAG said:

Hal 9000 said:

If someone does end up pursuing a fan edit that removed the whole ‘Rey Palpatine’ thing, they’d have a good opportunity to make the final scene free of dialogue, ala the other 8 films.

I don’t think removing Rey Palpatine requires removing Rey Skywalker. I actually think Rey Skywalker would feel better without Rey Palpatine, since it would show that Rey has finally found the family she searched for all these years.

Yeah, same. Honestly you might have to keep it, as it’s sort of the only scene that explicitly shows her coming to terms with her parentage one way or another.

Also, if you lost it, you’d probably have to change the title as well.

Broom Kid said:

I don’t think it’s unthinkable at all. And honestly, it’s a good thing for a movie to deal with, in these times specifically.

Also, honestly, “Star Wars’ bones” could do with some breaking and re-setting. The idea that the only path to hope and optimism in a Star Wars story lies in redeeming its villain seems really reductive and narrow, to me. That closes down so many storytelling possibilities that can still be hopeful and optimistic. The trick is not automatically deciding to center so much of your story’s weight and emotional drive on the bad guy at the expense of literally everyone else in the story.

It’s certainly not in Star Wars’ bones to do that. It didn’t happen in the first two films of the series, for example. The two that most people still tend to consider its best entries.

Telling a story about what you do when someone in your family doesn’t want to be saved and won’t let you help is just as powerful, meaningful, and useful to kids as teaching them to have the hope and optimism to try in the first place.

Not every attempt is going to be rewarded. And the lack of reward doesn’t mean everything that came before was in vain.

I still think that was a valid storytelling avenue. They could have gone down that path. If the only reason to close that path is basic dogma, I disagree with it. Star Wars is what it needs to be at the time it’s being made and coming out. It’s a reinterpretation of classic myths. It isn’t one in and of itself. It needs the freedom to riff and vary on different mythological aspects.

Kylo’s redemption shouldn’t have been a fait accompli in the writer’s room, and that it was is probably a big part of why the film is so unsatisfying.

I’m sorry, I will just never agree with this. On a fundamental I believe it would be antithetical to the core heart of the series. I could say more but that is really what it comes down to. Even if the writers didn’t understand much of what made the films in this series good, I’m glad they understood the necessity of this, at the very least.

FYI for anyone looking to change things about the Rey Palpatine reveal, the two scenes with Kylo - the Force duel and the hangar reveal - are basically just him exclusively talking under a mask and Rey reacting (“No!” “Stop talking” “Why?” stuff like that). I’m pretty confident this was done on purpose because they knew these were crucial expositional scenes and wanted the latitude to change after the fact. But it also means editors should be able to mess with them pretty easily.

Nah. Whether redemption was added as a layer in 1983 or not, it’s in Star Wars’s bones now. Moreover, Star Wars is, at its very core, a story about hope and optimism. For the final film in the saga to give up hope in redemption for the last Skywalker is unthinkable. For Han’s death to be in vain, for his and Leia’s child to be killed as a monster when he’s been conflicted for two full movies - it’s an absolute no go for me.

I haven’t looked to closely at the summary of this “script,” but I will say it looks like Kylo Ren dies a villain. If that’s true they were right to trash it, even considering the shitshow we ended up with.

Broom Kid said:

Did they? If so, then yeah, Mr. Burnett got hornswaggled here.

Yes, I believe it might have been Jason Ward that tweeted that, if I remember correctly.

Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if Trevorrow leaks it eventually.

I’d be very surprised. Evicting Trevorrow was probably a delicate situation to begin with. He’s the creative head of the Jurassic films where Kennedy’s husband serves a similar role to her on SW. I doubt Colin would want to get on her or Disney’s bad side.

Didn’t someone come out and say recently that Mortis was never in Trevorrow’s script? That would debunk this, wouldn’t it?

That said, considering the final product I’m fully prepared for Trevorrow’s vision (if it ever does get out) to be better than JJ’s.

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

I have a problem with people who like the movie getting defensive when someone criticizes it.

I mean, if someone like the movie obviously they’re going to get defensive in regards to criticism. If you like a movie and aren’t willing to defend it, do you even like it?

If you can just accept that some people have a different opinion than you, you’ll be a lot happier in life.

Couldn’t the same be said in reverse? Why get upset about people liking and defending the movie?

I don’t have a problem with people liking the movie, I have a problem with people dismissing legitimate criticism. Every movie has problems, even some of the best movies ever made. People should learn to acknowledge criticism, not deny it.

I mean, nitpicks and plot holes are some of the most lazy and pointless forms of criticism there is, I wouldn’t stress too much about calling them “legitimate.”

More importantly, it’s all subjective. Just because you think you’ve spotted a legitimate flaw with a work does not mean everyone is forced to agree with you that it is a flaw.

StarkillerAG said:

I have a problem with people who like the movie getting defensive when someone criticizes it.

I mean, if someone like the movie obviously they’re going to get defensive in regards to criticism. If you like a movie and aren’t willing to defend it, do you even like it?

If you can just accept that some people have a different opinion than you, you’ll be a lot happier in life.

Couldn’t the same be said in reverse? Why get upset about people liking and defending the movie?

krausfadr said:

It immediately stops the devastating impact of Rey’s loss and separation from Ben. Emotional reversals. Sometimes things are bittersweet.

I mean, he’s still dead. Considering the film doesn’t take any time to reflect on said loss, I’d say having him as a ghost is the only way to reconcile with the relatively chipper attitude towards his death.

I mean, him being a force ghost wouldn’t be a reversal. We know that’s what happen to Jedi, and he disappeared just like Ben, Yoda, Luke, and Leia, all of whom became ghosts. His omission at the end feels somewhat glaring.

I will say it’s nowhere near as bad as AOTC or ROTS especially in that regard.

I will say, for those worrying the titular Mando would just be a Boba Fest clone, they have done well to individualize him, in particular his attachment to Mandalorian culture. If Boba Felt does indeed show up next season, as many are speculating, I think there differences will become all the more apparent. Could actually work well as an interesting storyline.

Broom Kid said:

I can hard disagree with the idea this score is mediocre while simultaneously agreeing that the Solo score was good, too. I think the theme Powell wrote for Chewbacca is some of the best Star Wars music ever. Same with Goransson’s theme for The Mandalorian. Powell’s work on Solo is pretty damned amazing, and he was also the MVP of that film. So many moments in that movie only really worked because of his music.

Completely agree. Powell’s work on Solo especially blew me away and I’d probably rank that alongside some of the Williams SW scores.

Hoping that Williams gets one last win for Star Wars when the Oscars come around. It’d be a nice gesture, at the very least. And since the Oscars are more about gestures than any real appraisal of talent, even if you DO think it’s a “mediocre” score I’d love to see the nod.

Highly doubt it for a lot of reasons. Mostly, though, I don’t think the film treats the score very well in the mix, and there aren’t a lot of moments where the score gets to carry the film.

The hummable thing is bullshit. Everyone said the same thing about TFA and now you’d be pressed to find a fan who denies the power of Rey’s theme, March of the Resistance, or Kylo’s theme.

That said, the quality of a score is not just the quality of its new themes. In the final film of a nine part saga, it’d be strange if what we mostly heard was new themes. It is only natural that the majority of the score is reworkings of preexisting themes from the previous episodes (if it wasn’t, people would complain). In that case, the score should be judged not just by the “hummability” of the new themes, but of the variations and implementations of old themes as well.