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DominicCobb

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16-Aug-2011
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20-Jun-2025
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Post
#1162177
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

I guess it depends on your definition of fallen? I personally think the “Anakin died and became Vader” strict dichotomy is pretty silly.

It also depends whether we’re talking about before Luke entered the hut or after Luke searched Ben’s feelings.

So how do you define “fallen”? I don’t think having bad thoughts counts as fallen. But maybe that’s just me 😉

Luke doesn’t know Ben’s thoughts, he knows his feelings and his future, which I think are more telling.

Whether feelings or thoughts (the distinction isn’t terribly important as far as I’m concerned), perceiving the future is another matter. As Yoda said, “Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.”

And if Luke perceives that Ben might in the future fall, that is still different from perceiving that he is fallen.

But that’s not what Luke perceives. What he sees is a future where Ben does terrible things which leads his to a momentary lapse of judgement.

There’s no question of “Ben might fall” Luke makes it explicit that Ben had either already fallen or was deep in the process.

What Luke sensed in Ben’s feelings:

“I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart.”

What Luke saw in Ben’s future:

“He would bring destruction, pain, death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become.”

Saying Luke merely sensed Ben’s “bad thoughts” is dramatically underselling the situation.

When you say “that’s not what Luke perceives,” that’s not true unless you’re saying the future is certain. And we know it isn’t.

I’m saying Luke doesn’t see a future where Ben might fall because he’s already at that point. What he sees in the future is something far more horrifying than just the simple “Ben might fall.”

Your argument is that the vision Luke beheld was horrifying. My rhetoric was more tame (antihyperbole!) but I didn’t deny that it was a terrible thing to behold.

No, saying what Luke felt was simply bad thoughts is hyperbole. An exaggerated statement doesn’t have to be making something out to be bigger than it is, it can go the inverse too.

What a lot of us have trouble accepting is that Luke accepted what he saw, especially after the fact. “Snoke had already turned his heart,” means what? In large part, our appreciation for Luke is perhaps supposed to make it really meaningful. But there’s so much work being done in that line that many don’t buy.

“Snoke had already turned his heart” means exactly what it sounds like. That’s not a vision of the future in motion, that’s Luke’s perception of Ben’s current situation in that moment. I don’t know how you can disregard that. As for accepting the vision of the future? Did he really accept it as gospel or was it just something that briefly sparked a horribly misguided idea in his mind? The film would suggest the latter.

If Snoke turned Ben’s heart, that calls out for answers to why and how. I recall discussions in this forum (before TLJ) on how lacking in credibility it was that Luke could realistically have been convinced to turn to the dark side in the OT. That seems an entirely reasonable argument and I’m fairly convinced by it. There just wasn’t enough established in the movie to explain why Luke would turn.

I’ve made a similar argument, but it’s not that I don’t believe it’s possible that Luke could turn (I think they set it up quite well in ESB), I just think they dropped the ball when it came to exploring the temptation Luke should be facing throughout ROTJ.

In TLJ, we’re not given anything except Luke’s assurance that Ben was lost. We don’t know what Snoke could have possibly done to take Ben beyond the point of no return. I’m not ignoring Luke’s statement, I’m saying it doesn’t really explain anything.

Why should we have anymore than that? We don’t need to know anything more about that for the purposes of this story.

It does matter for the the credibility of this story and the characterizations. It’s strange to me that you would advocate for a movie showing as little as possible. Efficient storytelling has its virtues but if one is to accept that Snoke had an iron grip on Ben (and that Luke, of all people believed it) it calls out for more. If you can see how ROTJ dropped the ball, I don’t know how that isn’t apparent here.

I can accept that Luke saw something so horrible that raw defensive instincts kicked in. Others here have a harder time with that, but it makes sense to me. Note that is different than Luke concluding that Ben was already fallen.

So you refuse to accept a fact that the film presents then?

When it comes to a story, saying that one “refuses to accept a fact” is a strange statement. Stories are not facts that must be believed. A good story makes itself credible. If there are holes or poorly established elements, that’s the story’s problem. I’m not trying to challenge anyone’s enjoyment of the film, but there are gaps that don’t work for many of us.

This is not the story of how Ben was tempted to the dark side. He’s already Kylo Ren at the start of the film. I don’t know why you don’t see the distinction there. Yeah, we’re asked to take Snoke turning Ben to the dark side as a given. Why is that so hard to accept? I really don’t get why you won’t.

What doesn’t make sense is that Luke would give up afterward. And this goes again to the idea that Ben is lost and yet having no idea why that is. It begs for an explanation of exactly what Snoke did and of what Ben did to become beyond hope.

No and no. Luke didn’t quite give up, from his perspective going to the island to die and let the Jedi Order die with him was his solution to the problem (however misguided, of course). And I don’t quite think that Luke thinks Ben is “beyond hope,” he just doesn’t think he can help him.

And I like “antihyperbole,” AKA understatement which is not a synonym of “hyperbole” although a similar concept.

The question is why Luke thinks he can’t help Ben.

Because of the way he failed him. I don’t think Ben is quite open to the kind of strategy Luke took with his father.

And since I forget to respond to this…

And I like “antihyperbole,” AKA understatement which is not a synonym of “hyperbole” although a similar concept.

It’s still an exaggeration, so in my opinion it fits the definition.

Post
#1162164
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

I guess it depends on your definition of fallen? I personally think the “Anakin died and became Vader” strict dichotomy is pretty silly.

It also depends whether we’re talking about before Luke entered the hut or after Luke searched Ben’s feelings.

So how do you define “fallen”? I don’t think having bad thoughts counts as fallen. But maybe that’s just me 😉

Luke doesn’t know Ben’s thoughts, he knows his feelings and his future, which I think are more telling.

Whether feelings or thoughts (the distinction isn’t terribly important as far as I’m concerned), perceiving the future is another matter. As Yoda said, “Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.”

And if Luke perceives that Ben might in the future fall, that is still different from perceiving that he is fallen.

But that’s not what Luke perceives. What he sees is a future where Ben does terrible things which leads his to a momentary lapse of judgement.

There’s no question of “Ben might fall” Luke makes it explicit that Ben had either already fallen or was deep in the process.

What Luke sensed in Ben’s feelings:

“I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart.”

What Luke saw in Ben’s future:

“He would bring destruction, pain, death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become.”

Saying Luke merely sensed Ben’s “bad thoughts” is dramatically underselling the situation.

When you say “that’s not what Luke perceives,” that’s not true unless you’re saying the future is certain. And we know it isn’t.

I’m saying Luke doesn’t see a future where Ben might fall because he’s already at that point. What he sees in the future is something far more horrifying than just the simple “Ben might fall.”

Your argument is that the vision Luke beheld was horrifying. My rhetoric was more tame (antihyperbole!) but I didn’t deny that it was a terrible thing to behold.

No, saying what Luke felt was simply bad thoughts is hyperbole. An exaggerated statement doesn’t have to be making something out to be bigger than it is, it can go the inverse too.

What a lot of us have trouble accepting is that Luke accepted what he saw, especially after the fact. “Snoke had already turned his heart,” means what? In large part, our appreciation for Luke is perhaps supposed to make it really meaningful. But there’s so much work being done in that line that many don’t buy.

“Snoke had already turned his heart” means exactly what it sounds like. That’s not a vision of the future in motion, that’s Luke’s perception of Ben’s current situation in that moment. I don’t know how you can disregard that. As for accepting the vision of the future? Did he really accept it as gospel or was it just something that briefly sparked a horribly misguided idea in his mind? The film would suggest the latter.

If Snoke turned Ben’s heart, that calls out for answers to why and how. I recall discussions in this forum (before TLJ) on how lacking in credibility it was that Luke could realistically have been convinced to turn to the dark side in the OT. That seems an entirely reasonable argument and I’m fairly convinced by it. There just wasn’t enough established in the movie to explain why Luke would turn.

I’ve made a similar argument, but it’s not that I don’t believe it’s possible that Luke could turn (I think they set it up quite well in ESB), I just think they dropped the ball when it came to exploring the temptation Luke should be facing throughout ROTJ.

In TLJ, we’re not given anything except Luke’s assurance that Ben was lost. We don’t know what Snoke could have possibly done to take Ben beyond the point of no return. I’m not ignoring Luke’s statement, I’m saying it doesn’t really explain anything.

Why should we have anymore than that? We don’t need to know anything more about that for the purposes of this story.

I can accept that Luke saw something so horrible that raw defensive instincts kicked in. Others here have a harder time with that, but it makes sense to me. Note that is different than Luke concluding that Ben was already fallen.

So you refuse to accept a fact that the film presents then?

What doesn’t make sense is that Luke would give up afterward. And this goes again to the idea that Ben is lost and yet having no idea why that is. It begs for an explanation of exactly what Snoke did and of what Ben did to become beyond hope.

No and no. Luke didn’t quite give up, from his perspective going to the island to die and let the Jedi Order die with him was his solution to the problem (however misguided, of course). And I don’t quite think that Luke thinks Ben is “beyond hope,” he just doesn’t think he can help him.

And I like “antihyperbole,” AKA understatement which is not a synonym of “hyperbole” although a similar concept.

Post
#1162101
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

I guess it depends on your definition of fallen? I personally think the “Anakin died and became Vader” strict dichotomy is pretty silly.

It also depends whether we’re talking about before Luke entered the hut or after Luke searched Ben’s feelings.

So how do you define “fallen”? I don’t think having bad thoughts counts as fallen. But maybe that’s just me 😉

Luke doesn’t know Ben’s thoughts, he knows his feelings and his future, which I think are more telling.

Whether feelings or thoughts (the distinction isn’t terribly important as far as I’m concerned), perceiving the future is another matter. As Yoda said, “Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.”

And if Luke perceives that Ben might in the future fall, that is still different from perceiving that he is fallen.

But that’s not what Luke perceives. What he sees is a future where Ben does terrible things which leads his to a momentary lapse of judgement.

There’s no question of “Ben might fall” Luke makes it explicit that Ben had either already fallen or was deep in the process.

What Luke sensed in Ben’s feelings:

“I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart.”

What Luke saw in Ben’s future:

“He would bring destruction, pain, death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become.”

Saying Luke merely sensed Ben’s “bad thoughts” is dramatically underselling the situation.

When you say “that’s not what Luke perceives,” that’s not true unless you’re saying the future is certain. And we know it isn’t.

I’m saying Luke doesn’t see a future where Ben might fall because he’s already at that point. What he sees in the future is something far more horrifying than just the simple “Ben might fall.”

Your argument is that the vision Luke beheld was horrifying. My rhetoric was more tame (antihyperbole!) but I didn’t deny that it was a terrible thing to behold.

No, saying what Luke felt was simply bad thoughts is hyperbole. An exaggerated statement doesn’t have to be making something out to be bigger than it is, it can go the inverse too.

What a lot of us have trouble accepting is that Luke accepted what he saw, especially after the fact. “Snoke had already turned his heart,” means what? In large part, our appreciation for Luke is perhaps supposed to make it really meaningful. But there’s so much work being done in that line that many don’t buy.

“Snoke had already turned his heart” means exactly what it sounds like. That’s not a vision of the future in motion, that’s Luke’s perception of Ben’s current situation in that moment. I don’t know how you can disregard that. As for accepting the vision of the future? Did he really accept it as gospel or was it just something that briefly sparked a horribly misguided idea in his mind? The film would suggest the latter.

Post
#1162092
Topic
oscars 2018
Time

darthrush said:

DominicCobb said:

Starting back in around 2009 or 2010 I had the goal to one day see all the Best Picture nominees before the awards ceremony. I finally managed this for the 2013 awards in 2014. From there my goal became to see all the Best Picture nominees before the nominations were even announced. I came really close (one off) a couple years ago, and last year I managed it easily.

This year, not only have I easily managed that, but I’ve almost managed to see every single major awards contender before the nominations (missed out on Roman J. Israel and Molly’s Game, wanted to see the former but it past me by, been trying to see the latter the past couple weeks and came very close to last night). I guess this will be my new goal next year.

However what’s pretty funny that I’m just realizing is that I’ve almost already seen every movie in every category. Not counting original song, which is a bullshit category, the only other film I haven’t seen is Victoria and Abdul (and even if you count song there are only two more).

Less impressive is animated, where I’ve only seen one, and my showing in foreign and documentary is pathetic as I’ve seen none (as for shorts it’s essentially impossible to see most beforehand).

Anyway, what’s the verdict, should I watch more movies, or less movies?

I tried to pull off this as well and came relatively close. What were some of your favorites? For me I thought that A Ghost Story went really under the radar.

A Ghost Story was very good, very small film that came and went from theaters in flash but it’s on Amazon Prime now so hopefully more people will see it.

My top ten this year:

  1. Star Wars: The Last Jedi
  2. Dunkirk
  3. Phantom Thread
  4. The Post
  5. Baby Driver
  6. Blade Runner 2049
  7. Get Out
  8. The Disaster Artist
  9. War For the Planet of the Apes
  10. Lady Bird
Post
#1162091
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

I guess it depends on your definition of fallen? I personally think the “Anakin died and became Vader” strict dichotomy is pretty silly.

It also depends whether we’re talking about before Luke entered the hut or after Luke searched Ben’s feelings.

So how do you define “fallen”? I don’t think having bad thoughts counts as fallen. But maybe that’s just me 😉

Luke doesn’t know Ben’s thoughts, he knows his feelings and his future, which I think are more telling.

Whether feelings or thoughts (the distinction isn’t terribly important as far as I’m concerned), perceiving the future is another matter. As Yoda said, “Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.”

And if Luke perceives that Ben might in the future fall, that is still different from perceiving that he is fallen.

But that’s not what Luke perceives. What he sees is a future where Ben does terrible things which leads his to a momentary lapse of judgement.

There’s no question of “Ben might fall” Luke makes it explicit that Ben had either already fallen or was deep in the process.

What Luke sensed in Ben’s feelings:

“I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart.”

What Luke saw in Ben’s future:

“He would bring destruction, pain, death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become.”

Saying Luke merely sensed Ben’s “bad thoughts” is dramatically underselling the situation.

Post
#1162084
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

I guess it depends on your definition of fallen? I personally think the “Anakin died and became Vader” strict dichotomy is pretty silly.

It also depends whether we’re talking about before Luke entered the hut or after Luke searched Ben’s feelings.

So how do you define “fallen”? I don’t think having bad thoughts counts as fallen. But maybe that’s just me 😉

Luke doesn’t know Ben’s thoughts, he knows his feelings and his future, which I think are more telling.

Post
#1162065
Topic
The Last Jedi: The De-Feminized Fanedit
Time

TV’s Frink said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

dahmage said:

Yes, holding sexist views is unpopular here.

But sadly not as infrequent here as they should be.

In fairness to some here, I assume they are young children who might not know better.

Like the guy I quoted in the post directly above this one?

I’m not accusing, I’m just wondering.

Because that post he made was quite childish.

Yeah

Post
#1162028
Topic
oscars 2018
Time

Starting back in around 2009 or 2010 I had the goal to one day see all the Best Picture nominees before the awards ceremony. I finally managed this for the 2013 awards in 2014. From there my goal became to see all the Best Picture nominees before the nominations were even announced. I came really close (one off) a couple years ago, and last year I managed it easily.

This year, not only have I easily managed that, but I’ve almost managed to see every single major awards contender before the nominations (missed out on Roman J. Israel and Molly’s Game, wanted to see the former but it past me by, been trying to see the latter the past couple weeks and came very close to last night). I guess this will be my new goal next year.

However what’s pretty funny that I’m just realizing is that I’ve almost already seen every movie in every category. Not counting original song, which is a bullshit category, the only other film I haven’t seen is Victoria and Abdul (and even if you count song there are only two more).

Less impressive is animated, where I’ve only seen one, and my showing in foreign and documentary is pathetic as I’ve seen none (as for shorts it’s essentially impossible to see most beforehand).

Anyway, what’s the verdict, should I watch more movies, or less movies?

Post
#1161779
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Absolutely the scariest thing. Obviously I’m not talking about the immediate threat, but I don’t think there’s much doubt that Kylo brought Luke more pain than Vader (I’m talking emotionally here).

I disagree. Vader in the end of TESB destroyed everything Luke believed in and everything in Luke’s world. He had possibly killed his best friend, told him that his dad was not a hero but a monster, made him see his master were liars, destroyed his base at the beginning of the movie, killed several of his friends… and Luke was a young, immature man (if you compare to what he should’ve been in TLJ).

So I highly doubt that the possible future he saw was worse than this. As selfless as anyone may be, we are always biased towards ourselves.

There’s a big difference between being 20 years old and falling on your ass and learning your dad’s a failure and being 50 years old and facing the possibility that you’re a failure and your life’s work has been meaningless.

yeah, that is what i was getting at with my previous post.

  • first failure is hard, but he didn’t actually know his dad, and he was still young and in my mind, unwilling to accept the truth of his dad’s evilness, so he kinda muddled through with the stubborness of youth.
  • second failure, brought back the first (which he probably didn’t think of a failure before, because he had won vader over right?), and amplified it, added extra layers of failure. People who think they are right all of the time, fail HARD.

Yes, but here’s the problem. Ben hadn’t really done anything by that point, so there was no reason to assume Luke would not continue to believe he could turn the tide. I can sort of accept your reasoning if Ben had crossed over to the dark side in both thought and action, but just the prospect should not be enough, considering Luke’s experiences IMO.

Yeah he hadn’t done anything yet, but Luke’s vision gave way to a momentary temptation that faded away as soon as it came to him. So you’re basically saying Luke should be above temptation which I find ridiculous.

I’m not saying Luke should be above temptation, I’m saying:

  1. I needed more setup for the moment where Luke enters Ben’s sleeping quarters, and probes his mind. This setup is required to provide context for Luke’s state of mind, and to be able to determine why Luke considered Kylo a huge threat at that point in time.

Legitimately don’t know why you feel this way.

  1. I needed Luke to to be enotionally compromised in some way, to be momentarily tempted to use force. In the throne room it took the Emperor quite some time to goad Luke into going for his lightsaber, and that involved real pain and suffering, not just feelings.

Difference is, Luke went to face Vader and the Emperor knowing he’d be tempted and was prepared for it. His situation with Ben caught him off guard and vulnerable, his solution was sparked by his hubris.

Post
#1161775
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

From what we see and are told in the movie, apparently Luke didn’t even try to talk to Ben before going to him in his hut. And that’s just insane for me. We’re talking about the guy who surrendered himself to the Empire to have some alone time with Hitler to try to convince him that he’s actually a good guy.

Luke said that he had sensed some of this during their training, but had to be sure. It really doesn’t seem like the kind of thing that you ask someone about as a primary way of discovering the truth.

I respectfully disagree. To me, trust is the basis for any relationship, and not just romantic ones. So yes, Luke should’ve talked to Ben before anything. Talking to him would also trigger several of Ben’s inner thoughts and feelings that Luke would be able to sense, given the subject of their discussion, and because Ben at that point probably didn’t know how to close his mind from a Jedi master.

That assumption that i bolded is yours. i think the opposite, and I think there is enough in the movie to point to Ben having already been under some level of tutelage from Snoke at that point, that yeah, he probably could close his mind to a Jedi master. The other reason to believe that he could close his mind, is because Luke choose to search his feelings while he was asleep, with the obvious to discern reason that he couldn’t do it as well when he wasn’t asleep.

For one Luke already told us, he sensed the darkness, but if that were the case, that Ben was closing his mind, the film should have told us. It’s the basis for good story telling IMO. Just insert a line, where Luke sensed Ben was purposefully hiding his true feelings from Luke, something he shouldn’t be able to do.

Why shouldn’t he be able to do that? Everyday people hide their feelings all the time, not hard to imagine someone strong in the force can do the same but better.

Perhaps, but Ben’s just a student, and Luke a Jedi Master. We can hardly expect him to be able to cover his tracks like Palpatine in the PT. I mean, the guy carries his heart on his sleeve.

Yes, and Luke says he sensed the darkness in him beforehand. The fact that he says that and then says that he got a clearer picture of that darkness when he was sensing Ben in his sleep pretty much tells you everything you need to know there, I think.

He doesn’t seem to be able to hide any of his feelings from anyone except Snoke :p.

Nothing Snoke says when he’s sensing Kylo is inaccurate.

Post
#1161772
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

yhwx said:

DominicCobb said:

As for Leia’s words, I took it that every Skywalker has Vader in them, Ben (and Luke) included.

This is part of why I think Ben will die in the next movie. There’s obviously a viscous cycle here. The chain needs to be broken.

Well maybe on the first but I disagree on the second. I don’t think Skywalkers are necessarily more inclined to the dark, note that Luke says Rey basically has that same potential.

Post
#1161766
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Absolutely the scariest thing. Obviously I’m not talking about the immediate threat, but I don’t think there’s much doubt that Kylo brought Luke more pain than Vader (I’m talking emotionally here).

I disagree. Vader in the end of TESB destroyed everything Luke believed in and everything in Luke’s world. He had possibly killed his best friend, told him that his dad was not a hero but a monster, made him see his master were liars, destroyed his base at the beginning of the movie, killed several of his friends… and Luke was a young, immature man (if you compare to what he should’ve been in TLJ).

So I highly doubt that the possible future he saw was worse than this. As selfless as anyone may be, we are always biased towards ourselves.

There’s a big difference between being 20 years old and falling on your ass and learning your dad’s a failure and being 50 years old and facing the possibility that you’re a failure and your life’s work has been meaningless.

yeah, that is what i was getting at with my previous post.

  • first failure is hard, but he didn’t actually know his dad, and he was still young and in my mind, unwilling to accept the truth of his dad’s evilness, so he kinda muddled through with the stubborness of youth.
  • second failure, brought back the first (which he probably didn’t think of a failure before, because he had won vader over right?), and amplified it, added extra layers of failure. People who think they are right all of the time, fail HARD.

Yes, but here’s the problem. Ben hadn’t really done anything by that point, so there was no reason to assume Luke would not continue to believe he could turn the tide. I can sort of accept your reasoning if Ben had crossed over to the dark side in both thought and action, but just the prospect should not be enough, considering Luke’s experiences IMO.

Yeah he hadn’t done anything yet, but Luke’s vision gave way to a momentary temptation that faded away as soon as it came to him. So you’re basically saying Luke should be above temptation which I find ridiculous.

Post
#1161756
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

From what we see and are told in the movie, apparently Luke didn’t even try to talk to Ben before going to him in his hut. And that’s just insane for me. We’re talking about the guy who surrendered himself to the Empire to have some alone time with Hitler to try to convince him that he’s actually a good guy.

Luke said that he had sensed some of this during their training, but had to be sure. It really doesn’t seem like the kind of thing that you ask someone about as a primary way of discovering the truth.

I respectfully disagree. To me, trust is the basis for any relationship, and not just romantic ones. So yes, Luke should’ve talked to Ben before anything. Talking to him would also trigger several of Ben’s inner thoughts and feelings that Luke would be able to sense, given the subject of their discussion, and because Ben at that point probably didn’t know how to close his mind from a Jedi master.

That assumption that i bolded is yours. i think the opposite, and I think there is enough in the movie to point to Ben having already been under some level of tutelage from Snoke at that point, that yeah, he probably could close his mind to a Jedi master. The other reason to believe that he could close his mind, is because Luke choose to search his feelings while he was asleep, with the obvious to discern reason that he couldn’t do it as well when he wasn’t asleep.

For one Luke already told us, he sensed the darkness, but if that were the case, that Ben was closing his mind, the film should have told us. It’s the basis for good story telling IMO. Just insert a line, where Luke sensed Ben was purposefully hiding his true feelings from Luke, something he shouldn’t be able to do.

Why shouldn’t he be able to do that? Everyday people hide their feelings all the time, not hard to imagine someone strong in the force can do the same but better.