DominicCobb

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

I just received Paths of Glory new in cellophane from an eBay auction for ~$15 including shipping.

I’m jealous!

Possessed said:

If you got married without knowing you loved each other then you’re stupid. If you’re the type of person who can fall out of love with a person without them doing anything or any outside event happening then marriage as a concept just isn’t for you. If you get divorced simply because “you don’t love each other anymore” then you either rushed into the marriage without thinking it through, marriage in general isn’t for you, or you’re giving up.

Those are some pretty naive generalizations, honestly. And I don’t even disagree for many cases. But still, you’re generalizing. People are more complicated than that. Our societal conceptions of how “love” work are largely bullshit.

Divorce isn’t “giving up.” If one’s marriage isn’t working, there’s no good reason to stay to together and be miserable (unless there’s kids involved, but even then there’s a point at which it’d be worse to stay together).

NeverarGreat said:

I’m referring more to the OT in this regard, and yes, TFA really started the trend - ‘Who talks first’ and the joke about Daniel Craig dropping his weapon probably counts here - but overall the characters take the situations seriously and it goes a long way to legitimizing even the more absurd moments of the movie.

Reactions to Kylo’s tantrums, the whole shield scene with Phasma, that one line about how the force works, etc. TLJ is just continuing what’s already there.

In comparison, Boyega has pretty much patented a look of baffled skepticism with regards to TLJ’s dumber moments:

When your co-lead looks embarrassed with the BS, you’ve got a problem.

That’s kind of a warped interpretation of those moments. He’s reacting to Maz implying she been, uh, intimate with the codebreaker in the first, and BB-8 in the walker in the second. Both humorous moments, both reactions there to enhance the humor.

You mention Space Leia, Rose, and Canto Bight as being very earnestly implemented and I agree. Rian seems quite interested in being serious in the parts of the story that he likes, while treating the bits he doesn’t like as punchlines. Just little things like Anakin’s lightsaber, Snoke, Maz, Hux…

I don’t really understand why people have this impression that he’s “making fun” of things from TFA he “didn’t like” or whatever. Injecting humor doesn’t mean he’s disparaging those elements. Rian’s been very forthright about wanting a lot of comedy to keep the film from being too dark. If he “didn’t like” those elements they just wouldn’t be there at all (he easily could have cut Maz out, and given Snoke and Hux roles as small as theirs in TFA). As is he gave us a Snoke that was far more interesting and intimidating than in TFA, a Hux that was far more memorable with a more worthwhile place in the story, and a Maz that wasn’t any goofier than her TFA appearance. As for the lightsaber, Rian made it an integral symbol for Luke and Rey’s journey throughout the film… even as JJ cut and reshot its symbolic importance out of TFA.

Tobar said:

DominicCobb said:

As for “subverting expectations,” I think people read to much into that to mean Johnson was trying to annoy fans at every turn or something.

I wonder where they got that idea?

Only skimmed the video, but aside from the fact that none of the clips are from the time he was making TLJ, it’s seems to be his philosophy is a common and easily understood one that a film that inspires strong feelings one way or another is more exciting than a film that just gets a shrug across the board. Though that’s harder to fit into a clickbait headline I guess, and doesn’t fit the theory that he hates fans, which he so clearly does.

DominicCobb said:

Tyrphanax said:

Not pointing Luke specifically, just the story. I guess you could argue that the final scene in TFA has the weight of the Luke we know from the OT, but you could argue just as easily that it leads just as well into TLJ’s version of Luke so it’s a wash, really.

Luke we already know as an established character by the end of ROTJ. The Luke we see in TLJ just plainly isn’t the same character. You can classify it as “growth” or “character development” or whatever, but it’s not really an expansion of the Luke character we’ve seen before as it is a complete alteration of the core character. It was like a “what if” version of Luke where maybe he failed to defeat the Emperor and redeem his father and fell into despair or something. The whole movie kinda felt like a “what if” thing.

I completely disagree of course. Luke has always been my favorite character and I’m glad they gave him a compelling story rather than just “perfect old Jedi who exiled himself to learn the bestest powers.”

And Mark Hamill completely disagrees with you. Funny how that works.

What is is with people thinking that others should just bow their heads and accept Hamill’s opinion as their own?

The irony is that Rian gave him the best material I’ve ever seen him work with, and a showcase for him and the character that, I would argue, is adoring to a fault. Rian has mentioned that Luke is his favorite character, and honestly not only do I think that’s obvious from the finished film, I wish he could have measured this bias, because, even though I share Rian’s preference, in the end Luke upstages what’s supposed to be the film’s actual main character. In this regard I think TFA was a bit more successful with its treatment of Han.

Though I obviously disagree that the film “has no interest in generating or sustaining immersion in the audience” (I think there’s more to immersion than lack of “winking” jokes, plus wouldn’t that disqualify TFA as well? Hell even AOTC had at least one winking reference to the original film), I must say you have a well made point in stating that the film is perhaps less earnest than it’s predecessors. Though that doesn’t mean it isn’t earnest at all, and I’m not even sure that gets to the root of many fans issues with it. Some of the most widely criticized elements of the film are Leia in space, Rose Tico, and the Canto Bight escapade, all of which are, for my money, as earnest as anything else in the franchise.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Tyrphanax said:

Luke being reluctant is fine and I was okay with the hermit in exile thing, but never to completely give up hope and go off to die alone on an island. TFA felt like it was pointing in a definite direction, and TLJ felt like it was acknowledging that direction and purposefully going the other way (Johnson says as much in pretty much every interview about it: “subverting expectations”) while staring you dead in the eye like a cat pushing a priceless Ming vase off of a high shelf.

I legitimately don’t know how you can think that TFA was “pushing Luke in a definite direction” that somehow excluded his interpretation in TLJ. Genuinely curious to hear thoughts on this, as I truly can’t think of anything in TFA that contradicts his portrayal in TLJ or suggests it would have been something else.

As for “subverting expectations,” I think people read to much into that to mean Johnson was trying to annoy fans at every turn or something. I think what he actually means is more in the minutiae of the telling of his film itself, feinting one way and going another - not to annoy fans but to thrill them with a story that keeps you guessing.

Well to me it comes across as trickery, a cheat that gives the audience some thrills at the expense of building a real story that stands own its own. The movie essentially keeps telling you not to trust the story trajectory, because the author might yank the steering wheel at any moment, which in my view prevents immersion.

Plenty of movies zig zag and play with expectations. It’s an extremely common device, used in everything from the recent Mission: Impossible to the original Star Wars. There’s nothing that’s a “cheat,” about it, it’s a tried and true storytelling conceit.

The problem, I guess, with mega popular franchises with Star Wars is fans try to outsmart it. “Oh I know everything about Star Wars so in this 2 hour video I will lay out everything that will definitely happen in episode VIII.” When they’re totally wrong, I get why they might feel “cheated.” But trying to predict what’s going to happen and actually watching what is happening are two very different things.

To quote Plinkett:

“The question is why troll the situation at all? Why not take the audience in a completely new direction?”

Once you take away the surprises and the thrills, TLJ exposes the current generation’s Star Wars is self-referential to a fault, and extremely limited in its scope. RJ took the OT’s setups, and believed you can invent a new joke by just adding a new punchline.

The idea that the film is “trolling” says more about the viewer making the claim than the film itself. And I get it. A lot of people who go to see a sequel do so for the comfort of the familiar, they just wanted to be satiated with what they already know. So I can see how curve balls can get them angry. They don’t care if they’re dramatically justified or not, they just want what they know and love, how they want it.

The idea that TLJ relies solely on self-reference to tell it’s story is just plainly untrue, and again says more about the viewer, latching onto and commenting on the things that relate to the familiar, while completely missing what’s right in front of them - that which makes the film unique.

Tyrphanax said:

Not pointing Luke specifically, just the story. I guess you could argue that the final scene in TFA has the weight of the Luke we know from the OT, but you could argue just as easily that it leads just as well into TLJ’s version of Luke so it’s a wash, really.

Luke we already know as an established character by the end of ROTJ. The Luke we see in TLJ just plainly isn’t the same character. You can classify it as “growth” or “character development” or whatever, but it’s not really an expansion of the Luke character we’ve seen before as it is a complete alteration of the core character. It was like a “what if” version of Luke where maybe he failed to defeat the Emperor and redeem his father and fell into despair or something. The whole movie kinda felt like a “what if” thing.

I completely disagree of course. Luke has always been my favorite character and I’m glad they gave him a compelling story rather than just “perfect old Jedi who exiled himself to learn the bestest powers.”

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

Tyrphanax said:

Luke being reluctant is fine and I was okay with the hermit in exile thing, but never to completely give up hope and go off to die alone on an island. TFA felt like it was pointing in a definite direction, and TLJ felt like it was acknowledging that direction and purposefully going the other way (Johnson says as much in pretty much every interview about it: “subverting expectations”) while staring you dead in the eye like a cat pushing a priceless Ming vase off of a high shelf.

I legitimately don’t know how you can think that TFA was “pushing Luke in a definite direction” that somehow excluded his interpretation in TLJ. Genuinely curious to hear thoughts on this, as I truly can’t think of anything in TFA that contradicts his portrayal in TLJ or suggests it would have been something else.

As for “subverting expectations,” I think people read to much into that to mean Johnson was trying to annoy fans at every turn or something. I think what he actually means is more in the minutiae of the telling of his film itself, feinting one way and going another - not to annoy fans but to thrill them with a story that keeps you guessing.

My impression of Luke’s mindset from watching only TFA was that he became discouraged with his effectiveness as a teacher and went in search of something that would make him better able to pass on what he had learned. Since he was the last of the Jedi, the only thing remaining would apparently be these texts on a half-mystical island. Keep in mind that he gave the coordinates to R2 before he left, so it’s not like he went there to hide, at least not in the beginning. There’s also the fact that JJ wanted Luke to be practicing Force techniques when Rey found him.

So the idea of Luke in TFA was that of Rocky having lost a fight and needing to train harder for the next one.

Luke in TLJ has lost all hope.

It’s a not insignificant difference.

But isn’t that what he did, according to TLJ? The outcome was just different than what you personally expected.

Even if TFA had kept its written ending (which, again, it wasn’t, which is important to remember), it wouldn’t necessarily contradict anything except Like cutting himself from the force. Like could have “walked away from it all” (TFA quote) and still used the force in his exile. Clearly he’s still powerful in TLJ, and the implication is that during his exile he has been studying the Jedi texts, which lead to his decision to “end the Jedi.” So he hasn’t just been sitting on his ass.

Rian has specifically stated that he wanted Luke’s exile to be active. That was the solution Luke reached.

dahmage said:

DominicCobb said:

chyron8472 said:

Possessed said:

Basically just a joke on why the pizza chain (I think it’s called papa Murphys?) is so popular when they don’t even cook your pizza for you. They just make you a custom frozen one (I have heard it’s actually pretty good though). The joke is basically just a callback to the time there was a pages long debate on the legitimacy of such a practice.

The Papa Murphy’s near my house went out of business. Went over there one day to get a pizza and the whole store was gutted with the sign missing.

I guess it wasn’t popular enough.

The place was gutted? So that’s why there was no oven?

.5/10

Fair

Tyrphanax said:

Luke being reluctant is fine and I was okay with the hermit in exile thing, but never to completely give up hope and go off to die alone on an island. TFA felt like it was pointing in a definite direction, and TLJ felt like it was acknowledging that direction and purposefully going the other way (Johnson says as much in pretty much every interview about it: “subverting expectations”) while staring you dead in the eye like a cat pushing a priceless Ming vase off of a high shelf.

I legitimately don’t know how you can think that TFA was “pushing Luke in a definite direction” that somehow excluded his interpretation in TLJ. Genuinely curious to hear thoughts on this, as I truly can’t think of anything in TFA that contradicts his portrayal in TLJ or suggests it would have been something else.

As for “subverting expectations,” I think people read to much into that to mean Johnson was trying to annoy fans at every turn or something. I think what he actually means is more in the minutiae of the telling of his film itself, feinting one way and going another - not to annoy fans but to thrill them with a story that keeps you guessing.

pleasehello said:

DominicCobb said:

pleasehello said:

DominicCobb said:

Would you say ROTJ undermined ESB with its retcon of the “there is another” sequel hook?

I would say yes. It’s not really dealt with in a way that is satisfactory or satisfying.

“Leia’s a Skywalker. 'Nuff said.” We don’t get to see her character grow and develop her powers after the revelation that she has some in Empire. We get to see her in a gold bikini and she plays with teddy bears.

I would say that undermines her character and how it was established in Empire and hence the film itself.

I agree that Leia is underutilized in ROTJ (and that the bikini undermines her character) but I don’t think making her a Skywalker is the root of that problem. And retconning Yoda’s line doesn’t undermine all of ESB, it just reorients a one-off line. It’s far more blatant a redirect than anything people claim of TLJ, but it’s still kind of a “who cares” change, it doesn’t matter all that much in the grand scheme of the story.

I think most people’s problem with Leia being the other is more a problem of Leia being Luke’s sister, which serves to shrink the universe and make the love triangle of SW and ESB squicky. I can’t think of anything in TLJ that does anything like that at all.

I’m not going to try and argue that TLJ completely undermines TFA, because I don’t think that’s the case at all. But one such example (which is the only one I can really think of) is how TLJ picks up the final scene (the final few shots, really) of TFA.

In TFA, that final moment is treated with complete seriousness and has real gravity to it, enforced both by the score and by Mark Hamill’s small, but effective performance. TLJ unabashedly pulls the rug out from under it, treats it flippantly and plays it for a laugh, which to my mind undermines the seriousness of that scene in TFA. It also undermines Hamill’s performance in TFA. No wonder he didn’t like Johnson’s vision for Luke.

I mean this is pretty much the only scene where I get people thinking TLJ pulled a 180 on TFA, but I still don’t see it as undermining or causing an inconsistency. It’s basically just coming at it from a different angle. The two different scenes serve very different purposes. As the ending of TFA, the dramatic weight of the scene is such in order to suggest the immensity of the events that have occurred and will eventually follow, which is necessary as the ending moment of the film.

The fact that the moment is built up to be of such momentous proportions is still very important to the story of TLJ (whether the scene itself is portrayed differently or not). The scene in TFA is basically from Rey’s perspective, her whole life and the whole film has been leading up to this point, now she’s putting her faith in this Legend to save everyone. But with TLJ, we see things from the other side. The legend who doesn’t feel like a legend, wondering who this person is, tossing aside this weapon that has caused him such pain (in this regard, Hamill’s weary TFA performance still tracts).

But here’s the important thing. For TLJ to “undermine” this TFA scene, it would have to have ignored it’s portrayal and meaning entirely. TFA positions finding Skywalker as finding the last hope for the galaxy. And though Luke at the beginning of TLJ refuses, by the end of the film he has fulfilled the promise of Rey’s journey and offer. So comparing the final scene of TFA solely to its repeated scene in TLJ misses completely the scene it’s actually anticipating, Luke’s return on Crait (which tonally fits very well with TFA’s finale).

Aside from that example I wouldn’t say that TLJ undermines its predecessor. But there’s definitely a tonal dissonance between the two films. It’s not hard to spot and I think that’s part of why so many people were turned off by TLJ.

I honestly struggle to spot this “tonal dissonance.” The two films are tonally different of course, but I don’t really think any moreso than any other two SW films are from each other. Some say it has too much humor, but weren’t people saying TFA had too much humor, too? Aren’t they similar in that regard?

snooker said:

Yeah, but he still shot over ~90% of it, that’s why he’s credited as sole director.

I wasn’t aware of that figure… also I should be clear that Singer was only fired because he went missing or something I didn’t show up to set.

suspiciouscoffee said:

Also it’s a “straightwashing,” and is leaving out Mercury’s bisexuality and AIDS problems in order to just be a nice and happy story about a musician.

I’ve heard this, which makes me not want to see it, but in fairness I believe this hasn’t been confirmed to be the case yet.

yotsuya said:

ZkinandBonez said:

I don’t think anyone here is claiming that ROTS communicates all of it’s themes and ideas as well as it should have, the point is that they are there. Lore-wise the PT works quite well, but cinematically it fails on many points.

Exactly. The points are all there for people who watch the films repeatedly. It is not clearly done for the casual observer, though a lot might catch certain things and not question his turn. I think one of the biggest issues of the PT is that is really isn’t a prequel at all, it is a flashback. We already know Anakin becomes Vader so things aren’t setup very well if you follow the story chronologically. But the points are there. Palpatine maneuvers Anakin into an impossible position - save his friend and mentor who just might be able to help Padme or save a revered Jedi master who seems to be trying to take over the Republic. Which one is his duty to the Republic? Which one is the right choice? And as we see, he listens to Palpatine. He killed Dooku on Palpatine’s order. So when Palpatine has Anakin in that vulnerable state, he uses the dark side of the force to pull him the rest of the way over. He goes and slaughters the Jedi to preserve the Republic. It becomes the very thing he joked with Padme in ATOC. In point after subtle point, Lucas reinforced Anakin’s fall.

I caught all the points my first viewing. When I first saw it I was looking for the boxes to be checked off - ‘now he turns on Mace, now he kills the Jedi, now he fights Obi-wan.’ And they were checked! But the thing is that as I’ve gotten older and seen the films more that I realize how slapdash the sequence of events is. Lucas seemed to have the broad outline sketched out to begin with but never found a seamless way to piece it all together. To that end I sympathize with what some have said in this thread about ROTS being the worst of the PT - it does feel at times like slideshow storytelling.

And it seems clear that Palpatine is the one person Anakin trusts the most. So if Palpatine says something, Anakin will believe it. And he will believe it over the Jedi because of his long acquaintance and friendship with Palpatine. He probably has had more contact with Palpatine than any single Jedi. Palpatine made sure of that.

I don’t think that’s nearly as clear as you make it out to be (though again, I agree that’s what Lucas was going for). There’s literally no reason, based on what we see in the films, to think that Anakin would have had more contact with Palpatine than “any single Jedi,” when, in AOTC for example, they share exactly one very brief scene, whereas Anakin and Obi-wan spend almost half of the film together.

Either way, even if Anakin believes Palpatine over the Jedi, him believing Palpatine’s lie about the “plot” doesn’t make sense. Before that scene, we only have one other scene where Palpatine disparages the Jedi to Anakin, and he seems taken aback and defends them. Now sure, you could say that what Palpatine said there stuck with him, but still based on his reaction there (and lack of evidence to support the claim), one would think Anakin would be at least a little surprised that Palpatine says there’s a plot against him and the Senate. But no… he doesn’t just accept what Palpatine says as truth, he agrees with him, which suggests that Anakin must have come to that conclusion himself… but based on what? Sure you could say the dark side in that moment suddenly warped his mind, but even if that were the case, shouldn’t we have seen or heard something to suggest that? Him having a premonition or even just sensing betrayal or something? Nope, we just see Anakin being remorseful in one second about attacking Windu, and being a possessed slave to Palpatine’s orders the next.

snooker said:

Me and my sister were real fucking excited for ‘Bohemian Rhapsody’, until I learned that Bryan Singer directed it. I don’t know if I want to support the movie.

If it helps, he was fired and another director took over for much of it.

ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

snooker said:

“Wait, Mace Windu, don’t kill Palpatine, it’s not the Jedi way!”

Literally 15 minutes later:

Anakin slaughters the Jedi, including defenseless toddlers

This is the biggest logic leap in the entire franchise, and it completely ruins the rest of the movie for me.

I unfortunately have to agree. The kid’s all over the place. It’s telling that the only way for the novelization to make this work was to spell out that Anakin was literally out of his mind and seemingly incapable of making rational decisions.

Isn’t that how the Dark Side works though? Prior to ROTS we saw Anakin loose it completely in AOTC when he slaughtered an entire village (incl. the children), and even Luke went kinda berserk in ROTJ after Vader threatened to turn Leia. That’s a pretty agressive and wild outburst for an otherwise fairly calm and rational character. ROTS even emphasises Anakin’s yellow eyes to illustrate that he has been completely consumed by the Dark Side.

Well sure, but the problem is he turns to the dark side forever on a dime.

In the two situations you referred to, big emotional moments spark them to lash out with the dark side, after which they both later repented/regretted. In ROTS, I guess we can say that Windu almost killing Palpatine is a big emotional moment, but is it really enough to push him past the point of no return and seemingly turn the dark side switch on and lock it there for the rest of his life? No… and the film tries to make it out that he’s doing this semi-rationally, as a means to save Padme (he even second guesses himself, saying “What have I done?”). But… no, he’s got no problem murdering his friends and colleagues minutes later.

He’s all over the place, and the motivation for the consummation you refer to just isn’t there.

He doesn’t turn on a dime. We find out that Palpatine has been his mentor and whispering to him since TPM. Anakin holds Palpatine in high regard. In AOTC we are faced with how rebellious and arrogant Anakin is. He bucks the rules and starts a relationship with Padme. He forms a forbidden attachment (in my mind this is a failing of the Jedi that rather than actually train Jedi how to handle themselves, they just forbid everything that is remotely dangerous). When Tuskin Raiders murder his mother, he slaughters an entire village in his rage. In ROTS he seems to have grown up, but he is again having nightmares. This time of Padme dying instead of his mother. And Palpatine leads him along. He never promises any answers. The entire PT, we see Palpatine playing both side and being sneaky. I think there is plenty there to suggest that Palpatine is treating Anakin the same way he is treating the Republic. Both dreams (Shmi and Padme) are planted by Palpatine. Palpatine keeps Shmi alive until Anakin arrives. Later Palpatine keeps Anakin alive to get him into the new suit. Possilbly even longer. You could tie it into Palpatine in Jedi still keeping Vader alive and when Vader kills him he is doomed to die and not just because the force lightning fried his suit. This ties in with Darth Plagueis being Palpatine’s mentor. He could keep others from dying, but not himself. And the final thing that cinched Anakin’s fall making complete sense for me was the audio of the scene when Anakin kneels after Mace goes out the window. Listen to the audio. It reminds me of The Voice in Dune. In that moment Anakin is teetering. He no longer trusts the Jedi but he has not given over to anger. Palpatine pulls him down and makes him his servant. When next we see him, he is striding into the Jedi temple with yellow eyes and slaughters anyone who stands against him. Shortly after he even chokes Padme. It was like driving over a steep hill. Once on the down side, he was carried along and only years later when Luke was about to die did he find his way back. But the way I see it, is he was pushed over the top by Palpatine. He didn’t exactly go willingly.

What sounds good on paper doesn’t translate properly on screen. We know that Palpatine and Anakin are friends, but we don’t really see concrete examples of Palps twisting his mind toward the dark side, or at least not enough of them. He just mentions a story in direct relation to Anakin’s Padme problem. What does Palpatine say that would make Anakin distrust the Jedi? Just a platitude about power. I don’t think that’s enough to make Anakin first of all distrust the organization he’s spent more than a decade with, let alone decide to murder them. It really is a turn on a dime, he’s goes from merely frustrated with the council specifically, to wanting to kill every single one of them, without any believable justification besides “I will do anything you ask.” The idea that Anakin ultimately thinks “the Jedi are evil” is a good one, but there isn’t much of anything to support him getting to that point in the film. What we’re ultimately supposed to believe is that Anakin would willingly kill his friends, colleagues, mentors, and innocent children, just to maybe one day find a way to save Padme. And that’s a ridiculous jump for his character to make.

I’m not sure if Anakin would consider all Jedi as “friends” or “mentors.” He personally knew only a handful, and even them he resented at times.

Anakin lives with and worked with the Jedi for over a decade. One would assume he was at least a friendly aquaintance of more than “an handful,” more likely he knew hundreds. We only really see him specifically frustrated with two Jedi, Obi-wan and Windu (you could extend this I suppose to the whole council), and even then his frustrations are miles away from ‘ready and willing to murder them on a moments notice.’ If Anakin has a problem with the Jedi in general or didn’t get along well with any old Jedi in the order, we should have seen as much. But no, he’s fine being a Jedi, until he isn’t and is killing all of them.

The way Lucas conveyed Anakin’s friction and dissatisfaction with the Jedi was wholly inadequate.

And his disillusionment with the Jedi goes way beyond just them asking him to spy on Palpatine. This isn’t too well communicated, though is is either implied or mentioned at least once in either AOTC or ROTS. Also I don’t see why Anakin’s belief that the Jedi were trying to take over the Republic wouldn’t be a big motivator? It’s a bit weird that Lucas expects you to remember one conversation from the previous film, but I would say his “the Jedi are evil” opinion is random or out of character. As for killing the younglings, then were back at debating how the Dark Side works.

Anakin’s disillusionment that you speak of is just him not liking one of the rules and mentioning once or twice that Obi-wan is holding him back. Quite a ways away from thinking the whole organization is evil.

The idea that Anakin thinks the Jedi are plotting to take over is one of the least believable things in the whole film. Palpatine says it and Anakin just accepts it outright, with no evidence put forth. Sure, Mace was about to kill Palpatine, but then again Palpatine’s a Sith Lord who was literally trying to kill Mace a second before, not to mention Anakin sent him there, so it’s not like that’s really any evidence that there’s a “plot.”

As for how the dark side works, I don’t think it should be a simple switch that you turn on that suddenly makes you completely evil. Everything else in the films suggests it’s a dark and seductive power that corrupts you over time.

I don’t think anyone here is claiming that ROTS communicates all of it’s themes and ideas as well as it should have, the point is that they are there. Lore-wise the PT works quite well, but cinematically it fails on many points.

In the broad strokes lore-wise maybe, but they way things are executed does in fact imply things about Anakin’s character and the dark side that don’t make any sense. When telling a filmic story, cinematic terms matter a whole lot. I don’t care if it makes sense when you read the wookieepedia summary, if I’m seeing it dramatized, I need to see things play out in a way that’s believable.

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

snooker said:

“Wait, Mace Windu, don’t kill Palpatine, it’s not the Jedi way!”

Literally 15 minutes later:

Anakin slaughters the Jedi, including defenseless toddlers

This is the biggest logic leap in the entire franchise, and it completely ruins the rest of the movie for me.

I unfortunately have to agree. The kid’s all over the place. It’s telling that the only way for the novelization to make this work was to spell out that Anakin was literally out of his mind and seemingly incapable of making rational decisions.

Isn’t that how the Dark Side works though? Prior to ROTS we saw Anakin loose it completely in AOTC when he slaughtered an entire village (incl. the children), and even Luke went kinda berserk in ROTJ after Vader threatened to turn Leia. That’s a pretty agressive and wild outburst for an otherwise fairly calm and rational character. ROTS even emphasises Anakin’s yellow eyes to illustrate that he has been completely consumed by the Dark Side.

Well sure, but the problem is he turns to the dark side forever on a dime.

In the two situations you referred to, big emotional moments spark them to lash out with the dark side, after which they both later repented/regretted. In ROTS, I guess we can say that Windu almost killing Palpatine is a big emotional moment, but is it really enough to push him past the point of no return and seemingly turn the dark side switch on and lock it there for the rest of his life? No… and the film tries to make it out that he’s doing this semi-rationally, as a means to save Padme (he even second guesses himself, saying “What have I done?”). But… no, he’s got no problem murdering his friends and colleagues minutes later.

He’s all over the place, and the motivation for the consummation you refer to just isn’t there.

He doesn’t turn on a dime. We find out that Palpatine has been his mentor and whispering to him since TPM. Anakin holds Palpatine in high regard. In AOTC we are faced with how rebellious and arrogant Anakin is. He bucks the rules and starts a relationship with Padme. He forms a forbidden attachment (in my mind this is a failing of the Jedi that rather than actually train Jedi how to handle themselves, they just forbid everything that is remotely dangerous). When Tuskin Raiders murder his mother, he slaughters an entire village in his rage. In ROTS he seems to have grown up, but he is again having nightmares. This time of Padme dying instead of his mother. And Palpatine leads him along. He never promises any answers. The entire PT, we see Palpatine playing both side and being sneaky. I think there is plenty there to suggest that Palpatine is treating Anakin the same way he is treating the Republic. Both dreams (Shmi and Padme) are planted by Palpatine. Palpatine keeps Shmi alive until Anakin arrives. Later Palpatine keeps Anakin alive to get him into the new suit. Possilbly even longer. You could tie it into Palpatine in Jedi still keeping Vader alive and when Vader kills him he is doomed to die and not just because the force lightning fried his suit. This ties in with Darth Plagueis being Palpatine’s mentor. He could keep others from dying, but not himself. And the final thing that cinched Anakin’s fall making complete sense for me was the audio of the scene when Anakin kneels after Mace goes out the window. Listen to the audio. It reminds me of The Voice in Dune. In that moment Anakin is teetering. He no longer trusts the Jedi but he has not given over to anger. Palpatine pulls him down and makes him his servant. When next we see him, he is striding into the Jedi temple with yellow eyes and slaughters anyone who stands against him. Shortly after he even chokes Padme. It was like driving over a steep hill. Once on the down side, he was carried along and only years later when Luke was about to die did he find his way back. But the way I see it, is he was pushed over the top by Palpatine. He didn’t exactly go willingly.

What sounds good on paper doesn’t translate properly on screen. We know that Palpatine and Anakin are friends, but we don’t really see concrete examples of Palps twisting his mind toward the dark side, or at least not enough of them. He just mentions a story in direct relation to Anakin’s Padme problem. What does Palpatine say that would make Anakin distrust the Jedi? Just a platitude about power. I don’t think that’s enough to make Anakin first of all distrust the organization he’s spent more than a decade with, let alone decide to murder them. It really is a turn on a dime, he’s goes from merely frustrated with the council specifically, to wanting to kill every single one of them, without any believable justification besides “I will do anything you ask.” The idea that Anakin ultimately thinks “the Jedi are evil” is a good one, but there isn’t much of anything to support him getting to that point in the film. What we’re ultimately supposed to believe is that Anakin would willingly kill his friends, colleagues, mentors, and innocent children, just to maybe one day find a way to save Padme. And that’s a ridiculous jump for his character to make.

chyron8472 said:

Possessed said:

Basically just a joke on why the pizza chain (I think it’s called papa Murphys?) is so popular when they don’t even cook your pizza for you. They just make you a custom frozen one (I have heard it’s actually pretty good though). The joke is basically just a callback to the time there was a pages long debate on the legitimacy of such a practice.

The Papa Murphy’s near my house went out of business. Went over there one day to get a pizza and the whole store was gutted with the sign missing.

I guess it wasn’t popular enough.

The place was gutted? So that’s why there was no oven?

ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

snooker said:

“Wait, Mace Windu, don’t kill Palpatine, it’s not the Jedi way!”

Literally 15 minutes later:

Anakin slaughters the Jedi, including defenseless toddlers

This is the biggest logic leap in the entire franchise, and it completely ruins the rest of the movie for me.

I unfortunately have to agree. The kid’s all over the place. It’s telling that the only way for the novelization to make this work was to spell out that Anakin was literally out of his mind and seemingly incapable of making rational decisions.

Isn’t that how the Dark Side works though? Prior to ROTS we saw Anakin loose it completely in AOTC when he slaughtered an entire village (incl. the children), and even Luke went kinda berserk in ROTJ after Vader threatened to turn Leia. That’s a pretty agressive and wild outburst for an otherwise fairly calm and rational character. ROTS even emphasises Anakin’s yellow eyes to illustrate that he has been completely consumed by the Dark Side.

Well sure, but the problem is he turns to the dark side forever on a dime.

In the two situations you referred to, big emotional moments spark them to lash out with the dark side, after which they both later repented/regretted. In ROTS, I guess we can say that Windu almost killing Palpatine is a big emotional moment, but is it really enough to push him past the point of no return and seemingly turn the dark side switch on and lock it there for the rest of his life?

Depends on how you see it. Palpatine was an important person to him, and he was the only person he believed could help him save Padme from death. Palpatine even points out (probably lies) that he has to kill in order to be strong enough in the Dark Side to help Padme. Not to mention that Anakin’s trust in the Jedi had been severely weakened within the last days. Or maybe even weeks? (I’ve never been able to tell how much time ROTS is supposed to cover.) At this point he genuinely sees them as a threat to democracy, peace, and his own warped ideas of how to maintain order. There’s a lot of stuff swirling around in his mind when the Windu/Palpatine fight happens, and Palpatine knows how to take advantage of it.

Anakin’s been loyal to the Jedi for most of his life. We’re supposed to believe that the council asking him to spy on Palpatine is reason enough for him to murder every single Jedi ever?

Think about him vs. the sand people. They did something far worse and more personal and he didn’t even know any of them. It’s a massive leap to genocide of his friends, and we aren’t given nearly enough motivation to believe it.

Plus, Anakin was never that stable a person to begin with. Seriously, watch the scene where he confesses to Padme after the death of his mother and destroying the Tusken village. He’s basically a rambling, emotionally unstable sociaopath with delusions of grandeur, very much in consistent with the stuff he does in the next film. And the closest he ever gets to any form of repentance or regret is simply “I know I’m better than this”, which can be interpreted in many ways. He talks about how Obi-Wan is holding him back, he talks about becoming all-powerful, saving everyone, cheating death, etc. And of course this all ties in with him in TPM, a slave with actual knowledge of what it means to be powerless, unlike other Jedi which were raised in comfort, and a relative degree of wealth and independence since they were infants. Even in that film he talks about Jedi being all-powerful. In AOTC he’s frustrating at not having achieved that goal, and in ROTS he gets the opportunity to actually accomplish it (in his mind anyway), and the potential death of another loved one is an extra push. And the people he’s blamed for the lack of this power essentially “proves” themselves (in his mind) to be against what he believes in. And of course Palpatine is manipulating, suggesting, motivating, all of these ideas and concepts.
(As aside note, I’d also like to point out that the only time in the PT when “adult” Anakin seems happy and somewhat stable is during the war. That’s hardly a good sign and something which the EU has since put great emphasis on.)

Anakin has moments of instability, but he seems to have become a rational adult for most of ROTS. Not to mention, Anakin being a crazed sob isn’t exactly how he should be turning, he’s supposed to be seduced by the power of the dark side, not tricked into it because he thought they had one specific power he needed.

I’ll grant that these themes and schemes aren’t always that brilliantly communicated, but they are there, and they are generally quite consistent.

They are there, but no need to say “brilliantly,” most of them aren’t communicated at all.

DominicCobb said:

and the film tries to make it out that he’s doing this semi-rationally, as a means to save Padme (he even second guesses himself, saying “What have I done?”). But… no, he’s got no problem murdering his friends and colleagues minutes later.

There’s very little “rational” about anything Anakin ever does. He’s all emotion most of the time.

I think this quote from Yoda summarizes most of what happens in ROTS;
“Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.”

I’ll echo what I said to Dre. It’s all about believability. We know Anakin is an emotional guy, yes. It’s certainly possible to believe this kind of guy would turn dark side/genocidal maniac. But the way it’s portrayed just doesn’t work. Lucas skipped to many steps in trying to cram everything into ROTS. He had to check the box on “Jedi genocide,” but it just doesn’t make sense in terms of the sequencing of what happens. If Anakin were to attack the Jedi and kill younglings after everything else in the film that happens (when we actually see him become believably consumed by the dark side while killing the CIS and fighting Obi-Wan), it would’ve made sense. But to have it come literally right after his decision to turn is too big a leap to be believable.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

snooker said:

“Wait, Mace Windu, don’t kill Palpatine, it’s not the Jedi way!”

Literally 15 minutes later:

Anakin slaughters the Jedi, including defenseless toddlers

This is the biggest logic leap in the entire franchise, and it completely ruins the rest of the movie for me.

I unfortunately have to agree. The kid’s all over the place. It’s telling that the only way for the novelization to make this work was to spell out that Anakin was literally out of his mind and seemingly incapable of making rational decisions.

Isn’t that how the Dark Side works though? Prior to ROTS we saw Anakin loose it completely in AOTC when he slaughtered an entire village (incl. the children), and even Luke went kinda berserk in ROTJ after Vader threatened to turn Leia. That’s a pretty agressive and wild outburst for an otherwise fairly calm and rational character. ROTS even emphasises Anakin’s yellow eyes to illustrate that he has been completely consumed by the Dark Side.

Well sure, but the problem is he turns to the dark side forever on a dime.

In the two situations you referred to, big emotional moments spark them to lash out with the dark side, after which they both later repented/regretted. In ROTS, I guess we can say that Windu almost killing Palpatine is a big emotional moment, but is it really enough to push him past the point of no return and seemingly turn the dark side switch on and lock it there for the rest of his life? No… and the film tries to make it out that he’s doing this semi-rationally, as a means to save Padme (he even second guesses himself, saying “What have I done?”). But… no, he’s got no problem murdering his friends and colleagues minutes later.

He’s all over the place, and the motivation for the consummation you refer to just isn’t there.

I don’t agree. While I will concede the execution at times leaves something to desire, to me it’s pretty clear after he attacks Mace he decides to serve Darth Sidious and from that point on is committed to that choice, and get’s more consumed with the dark side as time progresses. While the entire sequence felt somewhat rushed to me, in a time where important character development is explained through a tiny flashback, it seems quite extensive by comparison. I will admit that I personally would have preferred an Anakin, that rationally chooses the quick and easy path, rather than coming across as kind of gullible, and crazed, but that’s the story Lucas wanted to tell, and aside from some weak acting and dialogue here and there that story works for me mostly.

There’s nothing “extensive” about the approach used here. We know that the dark side can cause moments of impassioned, irrational use (Luke in ROTJ and TLJ, Anakin in ROTS), but we are given nothing in ROTS to make believable Anakin’s staying along that path forever. It wouldn’t have been hard to do either. Anakin should’ve have been shown to be using the dark side anyway to help win the war. But no, Palpatine has to goad him into killing Dooku, and even after he feels bad about it. Anakin’s the biggest hero in the galaxy until the very moment he becomes the biggest villain in the galaxy on a dime, and it doesn’t making any sense and it doesn’t work. Lucas had three films to make this right (its literally the main reason for the trilogy) and he fucked it up with a completely inconsistent and schizophrenic progression of the character. It’s probably the single biggest problem of any of the PT, and it definitely makes me consider that ROTS isn’t the best one.

ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

snooker said:

“Wait, Mace Windu, don’t kill Palpatine, it’s not the Jedi way!”

Literally 15 minutes later:

Anakin slaughters the Jedi, including defenseless toddlers

This is the biggest logic leap in the entire franchise, and it completely ruins the rest of the movie for me.

I unfortunately have to agree. The kid’s all over the place. It’s telling that the only way for the novelization to make this work was to spell out that Anakin was literally out of his mind and seemingly incapable of making rational decisions.

Isn’t that how the Dark Side works though? Prior to ROTS we saw Anakin loose it completely in AOTC when he slaughtered an entire village (incl. the children), and even Luke went kinda berserk in ROTJ after Vader threatened to turn Leia. That’s a pretty agressive and wild outburst for an otherwise fairly calm and rational character. ROTS even emphasises Anakin’s yellow eyes to illustrate that he has been completely consumed by the Dark Side.

Well sure, but the problem is he turns to the dark side forever on a dime.

In the two situations you referred to, big emotional moments spark them to lash out with the dark side, after which they both later repented/regretted. In ROTS, I guess we can say that Windu almost killing Palpatine is a big emotional moment, but is it really enough to push him past the point of no return and seemingly turn the dark side switch on and lock it there for the rest of his life? No… and the film tries to make it out that he’s doing this semi-rationally, as a means to save Padme (he even second guesses himself, saying “What have I done?”). But… no, he’s got no problem murdering his friends and colleagues minutes later.

He’s all over the place, and the motivation for the consummation you refer to just isn’t there.

snooker said:

“Wait, Mace Windu, don’t kill Palpatine, it’s not the Jedi way!”

Literally 15 minutes later:

Anakin slaughters the Jedi, including defenseless toddlers

This is the biggest logic leap in the entire franchise, and it completely ruins the rest of the movie for me.

I unfortunately have to agree. The kid’s all over the place. It’s telling that the only way for the novelization to make this work was to spell out that Anakin was literally out of his mind and seemingly incapable of making rational decisions.

pleasehello said:

DominicCobb said:

Would you say ROTJ undermined ESB with its retcon of the “there is another” sequel hook?

I would say yes. It’s not really dealt with in a way that is satisfactory or satisfying.

“Leia’s a Skywalker. 'Nuff said.” We don’t get to see her character grow and develop her powers after the revelation that she has some in Empire. We get to see her in a gold bikini and she plays with teddy bears.

I would say that undermines her character and how it was established in Empire and hence the film itself.

I agree that Leia is underutilized in ROTJ (and that the bikini undermines her character) but I don’t think making her a Skywalker is the root of that problem. And retconning Yoda’s line doesn’t undermine all of ESB, it just reorients a one-off line. It’s far more blatant a redirect than anything people claim of TLJ, but it’s still kind of a “who cares” change, it doesn’t matter all that much in the grand scheme of the story.

I think most people’s problem with Leia being the other is more a problem of Leia being Luke’s sister, which serves to shrink the universe and make the love triangle of SW and ESB squicky. I can’t think of anything in TLJ that does anything like that at all.

Tobar said:

Continuing discussion from this thread.

DominicCobb said:

As to [Hux’s] seriousness, I’d say it’s about the same in both. He’s not making jokes in TLJ, he’s the butt of them.

Every moment he has in the film is undercut with him being made a joke. The only actual serious moment he has is when he almost shoots Ren and that was an improvised moment from Gleeson.

That’s far from the “only serious moment” with him (remember he’s the one who tracks them through hyperspace? not to mention his final shot which seems to indicate friction in IX). Not to mention you just named probably single funniest Hux moment in the whole film.

Snoke has a far bigger role with much greater relevance to the plot at hand in TLJ than TFA. Just because you expected him to survive TLJ because of his role in the lore pre-TFA doesn’t mean his death undermines TFA. In any way.

I don’t care at all that he died in TLJ. It was a good moment of character growth for Ben. What is inexcusable is that Snoke was not expounded upon AT ALL before his death.

In that regard it is 100% consistent with how he’s portrayed in TFA, no?

Are we talking about the same character who crawls across a crowded table to stare at Finn in TFA?

Come on. You very well know there’s a galaxy of difference between crawling across a table and literally flying around like a video game character taking out hordes of off-screen enemies.

I mean sure they are two different things, but I’m really struggling to see the issue here. You mentioned something goofy she does, so did I. You’re right we don’t see her shooting at people in TFA, but does that really mean she’s not allowed to ever? She can’t use a jetpack because we don’t see her with one in TFA? I don’t get it.

TFA was the film that sent [Luke] into hiding in the first goddamn place. I’m honestly baffled that anyone expected anything else of his character other than reluctance.

The very nature of his originally intended introduction says otherwise. Here are just a few alternative explanations for why he disappeared:

• As explained in TFA he went off looking for the first Jedi temple. Why? Perhaps in hopes of learning how to defeat Snoke. Why? What if Snoke was an ancient evil of some kind that Luke was unprepared to deal with.
• After finding the temple he crashes and is stranded. Perhaps the nature of the planet is such that it blocks anyone from reaching out or being reached out to in the Force. Which is why the temple was built there in the first place.
• Perhaps there were other survivors from his original academy that he secreted away to continue teaching. Hiding so that they can continue in peace without fear of Kylo returning to finish what he started.
• Perhaps Luke knew he wasn’t meant to be the one to stop Snoke and so he shuts himself off and devotes himself to preparing to train the one who is. Waiting for the Force to bring them to him.

So you believe there are multiple ways they could have continued what you admit was an ambiguous set up for Luke, yet you refuse to see how the way they went was equally valid and in keeping with what was shown? Only the ideas you came up with would’ve been valid?

And they changed what was written for a reason - because it would’ve contradicted Luke “cutting himself off from the Force” (but notice that it was changed and not portrayed that way in the finished film! Oh wait but I thought JJ and Rian were giving each other the middle finger?). Besides that there’s no inconsistency.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. TLJ didn’t contradict TFA at all.

TFA ends with a clear setup for the sequel that TLJ completely abandons. “Leave the base at once and come to me with Kylo Ren. It is time to complete his training.”

The start of TLJ should have been the mirroring of Rey and Ben through their simultaneous training. You can even keep the “Forcetime” plot device so that they can communicate with each other throughout this time.

The Kylo training segments would also be an opportunity to expound on Snoke.

The fact that Kylo’s training wasn’t visualized in the traditional sense doesn’t mean it was completely “abandoned.” I think there’s multiple interpretations to that - it’s possible that Kylo continued his training off screen and even on - with the whole force time gambit and striking “his true enemy” being a final test of sorts; or that Snoke died before he could totally fulfill that promise. Either way “complete his training” is just a totally vague and one-off sequel hook line, and far from what actually matters in telling a story - consistent character progress, which is definitely there. Would you say ROTJ undermined ESB with its retcon of the “there is another” sequel hook?

All you’re really telling me is what I already knew and have been saying: this isn’t an issue of whether or not TLJ “undermined” TFA, you just had very specific expectations for how they’d follow that story and you were mad that the expectations weren’t met (regardless of whether or not the divergent direction they took is in keeping with what came before, which it is).

Tobar said:

You guys are joking or purposefully selectively forgetting a lot if you’re seriously positing that TLJ wasn’t a big middle finger to Abrams’ TFA.

I seriously wonder the same re: selective memory in regards to people who think it is. I’d honestly recommend watching the films again, you’d be surprised at how wrong you are on all counts. The middle finger is an entirely imaginary one, and only seems that way because your predictions and hopes were off base.

• Hux a serious officer and rival to Ren is immediately turned into a punchline in TLJ

He isn’t a punchline in TFA sure, but he’s certainly still a rival in TLJ. As to his seriousness, I’d say it’s about the same in both. He’s not making jokes in TLJ, he’s the butt of them. He’s a “rabid cur” in both films.

I find it amusing that people say TLJ supposedly undermined Hux, when those same people complained he was an unthreatening and worthless character when TFA came out. Now these people claim the opposite was true, just to disparage TLJ. I’m sure they’ll find a way to complain that Hux wasn’t funny enough in Episode IX.

• Snoke the character that set off the entire events of the ST, seduced Ben to the Darkside, raised an army to overthrow the galaxy and built a superweapon that wiped out the Republic is dispatched as soon as possible without any ceremony after being used as a convenient plot device in TLJ

Snoke has a far bigger role with much greater relevance to the plot at hand in TLJ than TFA. Just because you expected him to survive TLJ because of his role in the lore pre-TFA doesn’t mean his death undermines TFA. In any way.

• Maz Kanata a wise Yoda like figure is turned into a cartoonish video game character

Are we talking about the same character who crawls across a crowded table to stare at Finn in TFA?

• Luke Skywalker whose original reveal at the end of TFA was to have him meditating in the air surrounded by flying boulders was then turned into cranky old man hiding from the galaxy. The rest of the Luke issues in TLJ are related to his OT persona and not relevant to this discussion but are probably the most egregious transgressions of the film.

TFA was the film that sent him into hiding in the first goddamn place. I’m honestly baffled that anyone expected anything else of his character other than reluctance.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. TLJ didn’t contradict TFA at all. In fact it doubled down (hermit Luke, Rey a powerful nobody, First Order’s prominence, Snoke an unexplained rando), and fans got pissy because what they wanted was for TLJ to undermine what TFA, but in the way they wanted.

MalàStrana said:

DominicCobb said:

pleasehello said:

Hal 9000 said:

Surely not, as that would be comically “take turns telling a story.”

That would be comical. With each film undermining the one that came before it.

For that to be true, TLJ would’ve had to “undermine” TFA, which is not even remotely the case.

Not if you have seen the movie.

I think we’ve seen different movies then (the Star Wars one is called “Last Jedi,” “Last Knight” is Transformers).

Though it wouldn’t surprise me. Lucasfilm has proved it has no plan for Star Wars.

It’s plan is to make good movies. It’s worked so far.

No, not really so far (1 sort of interesting flick and three terrible ones).

We’re talking about Disney produced films, not ones directed by Lucas.