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Darth Chaltab

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21-Mar-2004
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6-Jan-2011
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Post
#46107
Topic
Evil Empire...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/46107/action/topic#46107
Time
Quote
Originally posted by: RRS-1980
Quote
Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
have y'all forgotten how it felt to see Three thousand innocent people blow away? Have you no sympathy for them?!

The symptoms of American amnesia are showing again... you seem to forget about the compassion displayed worldwide after the 9/11 massacre. It took a whole war to dimnish it.
None of us here ever presented even a hint of sympathy to Hussain, bin Laden or terror groups. Like I said before, they should be all neutralized long time ago. American intervention in Afghanistan to overthow the Taliban regime supporting terrorists was understandable - I don't see anybody arguing about that.
But we do wonder about the sudden change of priorities. TV suddenly stopped to talk about bin Laden and switched to Hussain, as if the first was no longer a problem. This, and other (alleged?) aspects (the profits of US gaining control of the oil fields in Middle East, personal vendetta of Bush family etc.) make us question the legitimacy of US intervention. We do not say that Saddam is OK. Do not mistake us with those freaks who wanted to be his live shields.

To be honest I was sort of frustrated by the sudden shift of focus myself. I didn't really become suspicious or anything. I just thought in his zeal to remove Hussein made Bush lose focus on bin Laden. And that is one of Bush's mistakes I mentioned earlier. And I am glad to know that you aren't completely insane. I guess the media likes to mention only the most absurd anti-war people.



Quote
Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
At the time bin Laden hadn't slaughtered 3000 innocent people and there was no way we could've know what would happen in 2001.

No way to guess? If you give a granade to a maniac you think he will be grateful and is not going to throw it into your house?
They weren't given weapons without a cause... they were meant to be a dangerous group, but their target supposed to be USSR, and not USA... but things got out of control and the "good" terrorist transformed into bad terrorists...
If you fight by the sword, you die by the sword.

True but at the time the Soviet Union was slaughtering anyone who spoke out against them and they intented to take that into Afghanistan. I think we did what we did for the right reason even if it cost us later. But if we had better intelligence before 9-11 we might have been able to prevent it. I'm not going to start bashing Clinton or anything. Just making a statement.

Quote
Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
And why do you say the war on Terror is "propaganda?"

Because formerly USA was the state sponsoring the terror groups and Arab regimes and now you're playing saint.
Have you heard about Crusades? The ones aimed to liberate the Holy Land from Muslims? Everything in the name of Christianity and God? Do you know where the last Crusade ended? (I'm not talking about Indiana Jones here ) It destroyed Constantinople, the heart of Byzantum, the Eastern Christian church! Why? Because it was business! They were the competition and Western Roman Empire wanted none.
That is why I'm sceptical when people shout that some war is waged in the name of God, Nation, Freedom etc. Wars are usually about economical influences of a given state(s) and their immediate profits.

Of course. I know all about the Cruisades. I went to a private Christian school until two years ago and they made sure our generation doesn't repeat any of the mistakes of the past because of ignorance. And I think that the Crusaides are probably apart of why Muslims hate Christians so much. And I understand your skepticism but.. I think that the president should have to earn distrust. I mean it seams to me that most of you are against the war in Iraq because you don't trust Bush rather than distrusting Bush because we went to Iraq.

But my view is that history has shown that if you try and appease evil dictators then your wasting your time. Evil must be confronted and destroyed. Before WWII Churchill insisted that something be done about Hitler, but the nations of Europe then said "we are for peace" and then in 1939 Hitler invaded Poland. Same with Hussein. Appeasment doesn't work. We tried to avoid war for years but he violated nearly 20 UN resolutions (which of course, mean nothing to the UN) I think Bush Jr. understands that (he did go to Harvard, right?) and is now doing something.

One more thing before I get off of this soap box. The point has been raised that terrorism can't be defeated. Personally I think the "War on Terrorism" is a mis-nomer. I agree that terrorism is too... something.. to be eradicated by military force. The president clearly stated that the objective is to go after organized terror cells like Al quaed and governments that support them. Obviously we can't kill every Timothy McVeigh out there.

*Falls off soap-box and face-plants*






Post
#46105
Topic
Evil Empire...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/46105/action/topic#46105
Time
Quote
Originally posted by: Shimraa
Quote
I know the US isn't guiltless but we have been on the right side of every war we've been involved in. We nevered conquered another country.


OMG I am sorry man but that is such and arrogant statement, America has been on the right side of every war. Lets name the last three wars America has been part of. The second golf war they went to war on lies. On faulty intelligence, the ends DOES NOT justify the means. Saddam had no weapons he said so many times he let arms inspectors in. (yes he was secretive but that is his right. he does not have to lie down for America) and we find out now that he didn’t have any. Afghanistan. This was a very good move, bush attacked the root of the problem after 911 I agreed with this war and I commended bush for it. Rather then attacking everything is sight after 911 bush thought it through then attacked. Then we go back to 1990 to the first golf war. Just curious do you know how that war was started. Ill tell you. Kuwait was drilling at an angle and taping oil on Iraq’s side of the boarder. In effect they were stealing Iraq’s oil. saddam found out, told them to stop, they wouldn’t and so saddam invaded. America thinking they were the best then went in and attacked Iraq, in effect America defeated the thieves. Now tell me was America on the "right" side in 2 of those last three wars. NO lets look at some of the other wars they were a part of. In Vietnam they tried to impose their capitalistic views on a country that was going to become communist is that right or wrong to impose your views on others. Then in Afghanistan they fueled supplies to the Arabs so that Afghanistan would not be taken over by the USSR. Then in WWII the Americans only entered the war only after they had been attacked even thou Britain and France and Canada was asking for their help b4 hand and even thought Hitler was committing the holocaust where was there urge to be the law enforcement of the world then. then lets go way back to the 19th century. America annexed New Mexico, Texas, and California from Mexico. They took over that land. (so don’t tell me the US has never taken over other countries directly. heaven knows how many countries they have taken over indirectly.) Back then they also annexed Washington stat, which was originally going to be part of Canada when Canada gained independence. And your telling me they aren’t gutless. America isn’t your right but they are nowhere near innocent either. Don’t get me wrong wither I like America I will probably live there one day and be a citizen. But I really do despise there foreign polices and really wish they would just sit in there own country and not worry about what is going on in the middle east the only reason 911 happened was because they would not stop influencing the middle east whether they were financing a rebel group or a government or actual there trying to oust leaders they didn’t like

Quote
fighting is part of mans nature


Personally I feel that man is good. Go to any individual and ask them some basic questions about war and justice and they will all reply in the same way but when you get groups of people now that is where things get bugged up.

That is all for now cus I just saw this topic. Topic and I don’t want confer too much at one time other wise people start missing the points that are being brought up.



OK. Look Shimraa. In your worldview, your logic is spot-on. But that is appearanlty because you see the world through a moral relativist's perspective. We don't force democracy on others. Oppression is forced on others. Communism was forced on others. The Soviet Union started in a coup, not a people choosing communism.
Ok. maybe my statements were a bit.. er.. brash. I still believe we were on the right side of Vietnam and Korea. The problem is we weren't allowed to win at Vietnam. The government held the military back because of all the hippys chanting "give peace a chance." Now look at the countries into which we didn't stop the spread of Communism. Look at china. Look at North Korea. We were on the right side of Vietnam and Korea even though we ran away.

I'm not even going into the rebellious nature of humanity because that is a matter of theology and something that will cause people to go ballistic.

And please SEPARATE YOUR THOUGHTS NEXTIME. Do you know how hard it is to reply to something so hard to read?
Post
#46103
Topic
Plot holes in the SW saga
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/46103/action/topic#46103
Time
Quote
Originally posted by: Jedi Master Dave



question? anybody ever wonder why everyone seems to have forgotten about the force? grand moff tarkin called it an ancient religion, but how long is in between AOTC and ANH? Couldn't have been that long.



It is an "ancient religion" because it's been around for 15000 years, not because it hasn't been practiced since the ancient times. And it wasn't Tarkin who said that. It was some guy setting at the Evil Round Table.
Post
#45747
Topic
Evil Empire...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/45747/action/topic#45747
Time
Perhaps the US is arrogant. Look I've lived here in Tennessee all my life so I can't know how the rest of the world feels. But standing up for what is right isn't arrogance. And as long as America is the leader of the free world we will stand up for what is right. But it wasn't our percieved or real arrogance that lead to 9-11. We support Israel. We arent' an Islamic dictatorship. That is what lead to 9-11. And suppose you are right. Suppose they do hate us because we're cocky. That still gives them no right to murder 3000 non-combatant people. To borrow a phrase from Darrel Whorly, have y'all forgotten how it felt to see Three thousand innocent people blow away? Have you no sympathy for them?! Or is it reserved for the corrupt "religious leaders" who oppress the people of the middle east?

Reagan was stopping the spread of Communism. At the time bin Laden hadn't slaughtered 3000 innocent people and there was no way we could've know what would happen in 2001. And why do you say the war on Terror is "propaganda?" We must eliminate all the international terrorists. Terrorism will still exist I am sure but it will NOT be organized as Al Quaeda and NOT state-sponsered like the Taliban.
Timothy McVeigh couldn't have hijacked four planes himself.

If the IRA murder people then they should be brought to justice. But why can't Ireland do that themselves? The US doesnt' need to invade Ireland to stop the IRA. That's overkill. And "international" terrorism is attacking civilian targets in foreign countries. It has nothing to do with where you get the guns.

I'm sorry. I figured you would dismiss my opinions as worthless or uneducated because of my age. And I agree with most of what that paragraph said. But I don't believe my thinking about this subject needs to be changed. My opinions are my own and I'm skeptical that you can persuade me.
I don't think war is a good thing. I simply accept that it is a fact of life. And as you said, it will be until the eradication of sin.

Ok. I watch part of the flash. I find it disturbing. And I... Look. This is bad. The fact that those things happened was certainly a tragic thing. And I understant fully how those people might hate the US for what happended to them and their familes. But if we had left Hussein in power would it not be worse for them. For others. Why not watch a flash presentation of the Baath torturing people? It is tragic anytime a civilian is killed in war. But a "government' terrorising it's own civilians is as much of a tragedy if not more of one.

And yeah, it is a bad thing that we supported them and I really don't know why we didn't destroy them then. There was a failure of every administration's part to get them before they got us. But it was Clinton who sat around and had sex in the White house instead of doing something about terrorism. I don't want to play the "blame game." If we blame anyone, blame those who chose to kill US citizens.

When I said why doest the USSR keep coming up, I meant why blame Bush II for our foregin policy then?Reagan was president then. And no matter what you think of Reagan, there is no denying if it wasn't for him the SU wouldn't have collapsed when it did. And I know that there are still KGB people in high ranking offices in Russia. But the USSR as a whole has collapsed. They no longer have ICBMs pointed at us. As for recommending books. I recommend "The Way Things Ought to Be" by Rush Limbaugh (it's old but still fairly relevant, minus the war on terror) and "Deliver Us from EVIL" by Sean Hannity. These books present facts, not just opinions and the latter is very well-documented if you don't trust Hannity.

Well I'm surprised no limbs have gone flying (SW reference) in this debate yet. Well except for Motti's cussing... but he was probably drunk. Anyway. I'll subject myself to what y'all think now.

Edit: Look. I admit ignorance. I don't know enough about the IRA to argue any points made about them.
Post
#45734
Topic
Evil Empire...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/45734/action/topic#45734
Time
Quote
Originally posted by: GundarkHunter
The simple answer to all of this goes much deeper than Bush. As the largest free state in the world, the US has taken on the role of "defender of freedom" whether the rest of us like it or not. Most of us thought that after Vietnam that the US should know better, but it still hasn't figured it out. This attitude has created a lot of animosity, which finally reached fever pitch with 9/11. Instead of realising that backing down and admitting that it can't solve all the world's probelms by itself, the Bush administration, in the name of the US, has instituted a holy war on terrorism and enlisted as many other countries as are willing to believe that this is a good cause, when the best answer is really to allow a Darwinian system of natural selection to sort things out. By the way, that last comment was satirical; I don't know what the best solution is to the problems of bin Laden and Al-Qaeda, but it sure as hell isn't the current course.


The terrorists hate us because we are free and because we support Israel. They hate us because we aren't a corrupt Islamic pseudo-theocracy. No amount of backing down or waving the white flag will stop them from wanting us dead. And it is apalling that you suggest we should have done nothing in response to 9-11. You obviously have no idea what your talking about. Surrender--backing down, running away--is not an option and never was. We backed down around every corner in the Clinton administration and still got attacked. If we run they are simply emboldened.

Post
#45713
Topic
Evil Empire...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/45713/action/topic#45713
Time
But Motti. You have no reason to hate Bush adminastraiton.

And quit distorting facts. The vast majority of the Iraqi people aren't fighting us and you know that. The one's in Falluja are Saddam loyalists or foreign terrorists. Unless of course the news media are involved in the Bush lie scam.

I am not trying to be offensive or resort to name calling. But you are making yourself look like an ididot by saying that Hussein was no worse. Bush hasn't murdered thousands of his own people. He has tortured no one as far as we know. The thing is you just distrust the Bush administration because you're expected to. There is no reason to distrust them. They have certainly made mistakes but I just don't understand how that makes them liars.

I would continue but I have other things to do. See ya later.
Post
#45690
Topic
Evil Empire...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/45690/action/topic#45690
Time
I don't want to be thought of as a Bush yes-man either, but...

We helped the Afghans to stop the spread of communism but THEY WEREN'T TERRORISTS at the time. Then they were the victims. Our evil murderous enemy was invading them and it was in our best interest at the time to stop the Soviets. But now, they have killed thousands of innocent people after we helped those ungraful bladders in the cold war. So now we will find them and kill everyone that we can't capture. And note that George W. Bush didn't do that.

I am not giving the IRA a free pass, but I would hope that Ireland could do something about them themsleves. The IRA arent' international terrrorists and aren't an immediate threat to America. And they aren't apart of a sadistic regime. I'm not saying they don't deserve justice. Actually I don't really know much about them.

RRs, I am sixteen if you must know. Yes. Laugh if you want. Dismiss me as a stupid child. I don't care.And RRS. You took what I said out of context. Bush Jr. is our best president since Reagan. His father was too soft in the first war inIraq and he raised taxes after promising not to. And don't get me started on Clinton. So by saying he is our best president since Reagan isn't saying a whole lot anyway. And maybe you don't hate America but there are some people out there who do, even if they won't admit it to themselves. I know the US isn't guiltless but we have been on the right side of every war we've been involved in. We nevered conquered another country.

Why does the USSR keep coming up? The Soviet Union collapsed ten years before Bush became president. He had nothing to do with our foreign policy then.


Finally. What is wrong with the US profiting from something? Why is something good for the US something bad for you? Even if GWB is some evil freak who just wants to wage wars, the war rescued something like thirty million people from a sadistic dictator. So he did the right thing even if he had the worst of motives. But I believe his motives were what they said they were, and I suppose that is the fundamental difference between our opinions.



Post
#45677
Topic
Evil Empire...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/45677/action/topic#45677
Time
Well I am sorry you've fallen for that lie, Motti. You must be living in a delusion.

The war in Iraq is perfectly justified. Saddam Hussein is an evil man. He killed his own people. He wanted WMDs whether he had them or not. If you are too blind to see that then I pity you. Obviously you must deeply hate Bush or America to think the war in Iraq is about oil. We will go after the other terrorists eventually. And since when has the IRA attacked America?

Now darn it, Motti, I put up my Lightsaber don't make me get it back out.
Just forget it. You can't persuade me and I can't persuade you.
If you still feel you must have the last word, fine. I'm gone.
Post
#45661
Topic
Evil Empire...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/45661/action/topic#45661
Time
*Jumps and scans Ric's hand for a weapon, but then accepts*

It is nice to finally meet someone who doesn't think they can change my mind.
I suppose I understand *why* you believe what you belive, even though I know you are wrong.

Anywho. I guess I've made my position clear enough. I'll respectfully disagree, and simply walk away.


*Footstepps moving away*
*Sound of Lightsaber shutting off*
Post
#45626
Topic
Evil Empire...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/45626/action/topic#45626
Time
Note: I am sorry about having two posts but since I have school most of the time I cant' reply consistently. Y'all leave me with a lot of ground to cover in two days.. since I seem to be the only conservative-minded person on these boards.

This makes me sick.

Are the liberals *still* stuck on the "Bush stole the election" crap?
Unbeliveable.

Even if you hate Bush with all your might you must be smart or sane enough to imagine what would have happened if AL GORE were president. If Bush is stupid then Al Gore is an absolute moron.

If Al Gore were president 9-11 would have likely gone unpunished. The Taliban would still control Afghanistan and I know that Saddam Hussein would still be in power.

I am also sick of people saying that the president lied or had sinister intentions for going into Iraq. George W. Bush is our nation's greates president since Ronald Reagan and he is demonized and berated ten times as much. But I know I can't convince anyone here. It is obvious that y'all will continue to ignore the greater implications of the *worldwide* War agianst Terrorism and just attack the Bush administration.

But I guess if it were possible for me to convince one person to vote for Bush's reelection it would be worth it. I know that the president isn't perfect, and I know he has made some mistakes, but at least he has the courage to give the country moral leadership and go against popular opinion to do what is right.

Now for my Star War related sig....
Post
#45625
Topic
Evil Empire...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/45625/action/topic#45625
Time
Quote
Originally posted by: motti_soL
Quote
*We freed Iraq but we can't afford to rebuild the country. We can't hold their hands forever.


you are... F***ING... kidding me right?

Quote
*Who profits from the war? Everyone but the evil regimes that like terrorism.


can you spell Halliburton, to name but one...



-No I am not kidding. We have to protect them for now but we can't afford to occupy the country forever.
Not in lives or in money. I thought you would be for leaving now. I'm only saying we have to leave when the job is done. But not before

-Yeah. I suppose Halliburton did profit from the war, but Haliburriton counts as part of "everyone but the evil regimes that like terrorism"

OK. Ricarlete (sp?)
Your idealism is nice but flawed. Evil is a part of human nature. We can't teach our kids to be nice by removing the violent images from TV. Obviously we have two very different worldviews. I, on one hand believe that there are absolute rights and wrongs established by God, and that humans are by nature going to do evil. History continues to repeat itself.

You seem to thing that somehow humanity can become peaceful by simply not engaging in war. But that is crap. Somewhere until the end there will always be someone engaging in evil and they will wage war. War is bad but it is the only option more times than not. Nothing but death or Divine intervention will stop Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden from being evil.

And, ric, if you insist on removing violence from entertainment what the heck are you doing on a message board about Star WARS?