DarkFather

I absolutely love Leia's voice in this.

Even though it doesn't address anything in my previous post, Anakin was indeed a slave all of his life. He constantly fought to be something more. Vader's spirit was never "broken." It just changed its shape, while having the same goal in mind, with amplified determination to get to that goal. When you imagine his life's timeline, you see the dogged determination again and again, and it's very inspiring. That's why I don't get people saying Vader was "broken" or a "weakling." He was a solid symbol of enduring strength. Whether good or evil, that part remained the same.

Bingowings said:

DarkFather said:Bingowings, on the last page I explained how Vader is anything but weak. It'd be neat if you decided to respond to it instead of continuing to insist that he's some weakling hiding in a suit.

With respect I think I did respond by re-asserting my view that he is a weak broken person kept alive by machinery and the negative side of the Force.

He is emotionally weak because he is a bully sitting on a house of cards assembled by Palpatine and despite his plans to the contrary feels powerless to do anything about it on his own.

He is physically weak, as soon as his life support is buggered up by Palpatine's Force lightning he dies within a few minutes.

He takes out his weakness on those around him, he can't breath so he chokes the life out anyone who steps on his toes.

He only becomes strong when his compassion tunes him back into the light side of the Force (something Palpatine cannot master).

As a military commander he is limited to controlling people through fear and never commands respect (Tarkin seems to be able to handle both) and he allows his emotional attachment to his son and his hope that it will give him the upper hand over Vader to push himself and those around him to ruin.

You can and obviously do hold different views so it's pointless to press them further either way.

You think he is battle hardened and those sounds weaken the strong arm of the Emperor's forces, I think he is battle damaged and the sounds flag up the fragile human hiding inside the bionic monster.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

 

 Vader is something of brute in his actions. By no means do I endorse or condone his actions in any way, but on an objective level, can't we admit that in his instabilities, he does have a strength? He kills his former Jedi peers without any sort of remorse, chokes Imperial officers who he has been around long enough to know without second throught afterward... see the strength through detachment that I'm getting at? Just because someone is cruel to those around him, doesn't deny him great strength in mind and spirit. We've been socially programmed to think otherwise. If anything, to say cruelty equals inner weakness in the cruel person is a defense mechanism for the oppressed. We're pinning a weakness onto those who oppress us, when in reality, that weakness might not even really be there. Poignant, but it's the cold, hard truth.

Arrogance doesn't always come from an inferiority complex. Sometimes it's a superiority complex where the person deep down, honestly believes themselves to be worthy of the universe, and everyone else are desposable tools to an end. Call it narcissicm, call it sociopathy, it is what it is.

That's the emotional/psychological standpoint.

Now, as far as the life support system being vulnerable to Force Lightning: I think that actually helps my side of this discussion. It's a very vulnerable point for his physical being. Everyone has one. Vader, despite his vulnerable point/Achilles' Heel, managed to survive over two decades. He survives DESPITE that vulnerable point, which is a signifier of even greater strength.

Sevb32 said:

I like the Vader audible reactions, it shows he still feels some pain, even being as much machine as he is. But go back and listen to the original pre SE editions of the vhs tapes or maybe even the pre SE dvds (Which I don't have.) Vader's Carbonite groans sounded like two different ones, in the SE's they both sound more or less the same.

 I believe he does feel pain, but then again, why is it even important to know? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think you're implying that it's important we know he's a sentient being. We already know that from the scene in the meditation chamber when the helmet is replaced on his head. And if there's any doubt after that, we'll know for sure when it's revealed that Vader is indeed Luke's father. Why do you need other, superfluous parts that don't go along with the character anyway?

I realize that a lot of it comes down to opinion. I see it from your point of view for sure, and figured I'd share my point of view on the matter. Really, I'm not trying to debate anybody. What I am trying to do is help them to open up their minds to other possibilities, which I think will really in turn help this project. We'll be taking all sorts of awesome things into account. Anyway, you have my view now.

If Vader is was so strong he would have taken on Palpatine on his own (Palpatine really is strong and hides his great powers behind a mask of being a sick old man, he is the counterpoint to Yoda who hides his power in much the same way).

Vader and Palpatine are at a point of stalemate with each other, they both want the other out of the way and see Luke as the tool for doing it.

In the end it's Anakin's latent ability to feel compassion that makes him strong (even stronger than Palpatine).

There are two Vaders here, the one he wants us to see, the Dark Lord who crushes all who stand in his way and the physically and emotional wreckage that sits inside the armoured shell.

He hasn't had to fight a Jedi in decades (leaving the EU to one side and allowing for the obvious fact that Obi-Wan allowed himself to be killed). So this is the first time he has had to extend himself in this way for a long time.

Luke loses this battle but he puts up a strong fight (with only a few days training and youth on his side) which proves just how weak Vader is becoming.

So I'd allow him a few grunts and grrrrs of anger and pain.

Of course Vader pales in comparison to the Emperor. Not by too much. The only card the Emperor can play against Vader is Force Lightning. That's not to say Vader is weak in contrast to everyone else he's around. The Emperor is the only exception, which is saying a lot about how much power Vader has on his hands.

You're right in that he's most likely been out of the Jedi dueling business for a while. However, I see no reason to not believe, and every reason to believe that he's consistently at the forefront of war and conflict. I'm just saying this guy is hardened to pain and his reactions are weird and out of place.

Bingowings said:

DarkFather said:

He's a Sith, I expect him to act out in rage. Sith use their rage to lash out at their enemies. In this case, he focused it on Luke and ended up taking off the kid's hand. But I'm talking about the exclamations themselves. Do you really think they belong with this towering, villainous half-machine that has been battle hardened? I don't think it does. That's why I suggest to Adywan that it be edited out. I could use the "first time we saw it in that context so it must be true" logic, and going by that, there'd be no point in editing any films. The yells were something that bothered me from the first time I watched ESB, and come to find out, it's bothering some other fans interested in this project as well.

I wasn't saying that because it's the first time it should stay, I was saying that because it's the first time that is the point from which you make any editing decisions from.

Vader is that way now, you can make a good arguement for making him a tougher creature in a re-edit but in the text we are working from he is really a fragile being pretending to be strong, he is hiding the fact that he is a weak, sick old man behind a fear inducing mask and machinery.

I think those responses help reveal that truth to the audience and it's something that pays off in the final chapter.

 

Actually, Vader isn't all that old. He's in his early to mid-forties in ESB if I remember right. Vader is sick, sure. In the sense that he's relying on a life-support suit. Yet with that suit on, he's anything but weak. The mechanical arms give him physical strength beyond any normal human shown in the way he lifts Antilles like a pillow. The whole argument that Vader is a pathetic weakling hiding behind a mask really falls flat. He was de-limbed, suffered third degree burns covering virtually all of his body, yet survived and continued working against the remnants of the Old Republic for over two decades. These are of course despite all of Lucas' nonsensical quotes to the contrary. Are we going to trust Lucas to keep a straight story anyway? I'm not, and I don't think you really do either. He's seemed obsessed with making Vader into a weakling with his quotes, when the films plainly show otherwise. Very weird stuff. So now that we've established that he's strong, tough, and still in his prime, we can now take into account that this hardened villain wouldn't be giving any sort of audible reaction from a little wound to the shoulder (depends on how you read the scene... you could say it was an angry outburst, or a pain surprise. I lean toward the last one). I hope Adywan decides to edit it out, and then we wouldn't have this silly contradiction to character in ESB. Also, we have to remember the cry he makes when falling from the platform in the carbon freezing chamber. That's another one that I think needs to go.

He's a Sith, I expect him to act out in rage. Sith use their rage to lash out at their enemies. In this case, he focused it on Luke and ended up taking off the kid's hand. But I'm talking about the exclamations themselves. Do you really think they belong with this towering, villainous half-machine that has been battle hardened? I don't think it does. That's why I suggest to Adywan that it be edited out. I could use the "first time we saw it in that context so it must be true" logic, and going by that, there'd be no point in editing any films. The yells were something that bothered me from the first time I watched ESB, and come to find out, it's bothering some other fans interested in this project as well.

It's not a question of if he would feel it. I think he would. Given the technology, I think any damage sustained on even a mechanical section of his body would register to his brain as if it were his actual organic body. The real question is if he should acknowledge that pain in a cry of exclamation. I don't think he needs to. Like Vaderios said, it's not his character.

You've mentioned something that has bugged me about ESB for a long time.

That's Vader's two cries of pain and surprise during the duel. They were embarassing to hear. Vader's a guy who has clearly suffered consistent pain of every degree imaginable for years.

A little nip on the shoulder would have no effect on him whatsoever. At least not to the point that he made any sound out of it.

I may have commentaries for the next 11 episodes at some point. Right now I want to just comment on Vader and Obi-Wan.

When Vader comes aboard the Tantive IV to retrieve the stolen plans, a listener will begin to realize that this is a new spin on the villain from the film. While much of the dialogue and actions are the same, the tonality he uses when speaking gives us a villain with a different personality. His voice remains calm. While choking Antilles, Vader talks like an adult asking a child where the remote control to the television was hidden.

So this Vader isn't so much the brute from the film, but a more sophisticated and stoic villain.

Now for Obi-Wan Kenobi. Overall, the voice actor gives a flat performance. Obi-Wan seems too fatigued and "out of it" to be very engaging, and that's the first disappointment in the radio drama so far. Hopefully he gets better later on.

AxiaEuxine said:

Just becuase you all hate the prequels and anything else that came out post 83 doesnt mean you shouldnt still enjoy whatever is left. I for one think theyve ruined the Bond franchise with the last two movies. Are they decent spy movies? Sure but they arent Bond movies. I still enjoy the movies that came before though. Im not going to let the fact that holloywood needed to gut the franchise of any Bond like things to make ordinary spy movies that appealed to a wider audience stop me from enjoying Goldeneye and any other Bond movie.

So just becuase you think Star Wars went in some direction you didnt care for dont let it stop you from enjoying A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, three of the best movies ever made.

How's that comic cover coming along now that you have my expert advice?

It's even more fun to forget about ESB and ROTJ when watching SW'77. It's an entire new universe without the baggage of retcons.

Heheh. I heard mention that there were no medical droids in the edited pic, and now I'm comparing them to see where the Medical Droids originally were.

It's like playing Where's Waldo: Star Wars Edition.

vaderios said:

Snowing! haha! i like it so much this!

Imagine a winter landscape in bespin!

Awesome.

 

-Angel

So are you planning to redo the unmasking scene with the new look, or do I need to go convince another superb artist to do it?

doubleofive said:

DarkFather said:

I'm in disagreement. I like the first image better because the shadows give the corridor a foreboding mystery.

 

I think it makes it look like that part of the city is OFF.  Like someone forgot to pay the electric bill.

Or they don't want the electric bill to be as high as the last month.

I think it works better dimly-litted.

I'm in disagreement. I like the first image better because the shadows give the corridor a foreboding mystery.

So you decided to polish a turd? Well, from what I see, the alterations aren't bad at all. Then again, I'm sleep deprived. Why did you give Luke a red lightsaber instead of turning it blue in the upper left hand corner?

This might help for when he dies and his head leans back:

http://img437.imageshack.us/img437/6313/millenniumfalcondvdrip49wv.jpg

Angel, I searched high and low, but a good selection of high-quality screencaps of burned Vader are surprisingly impossible to come by. I would take them myself, but I no longer own the DVD.

I did, however, find these:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1430/983621762_bd7ca69e74.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1131/983621746_f89140a0a9.jpg?v=0

doubleofive said:

vaderios said:

I want.....

 

...Cookies :)

 

-Angel

 

Now THAT looks like someone who was burned half to death and hasn't seen a sun in 20 years!

I like this. Could you redo the whole unmasking scene with this new appearance?

It made the galaxy seem tiny. Like a neighborhood where everybody knows everybody. Quite the opposite of fascinating for me.

I just want to be able to take the Emperor seriously. He is the prime villain after all.

I suggest editing out a chunk of the Emperor's dialogue. As presented in ROTJ, he's a very stock villain. When you imagine him sitting there, most the time silent, you can feel the tension building up. So when he does speak, his words could that much more weight. I also suggest having him speak more slowly and collectively, as the character did in Empire Strikes Back.

Silence among contrasting characters, when done correctly, is a superb way of creating a foreboding tension. The way it is in ROTJ now, is very scripted and watered down.

Consider this.