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Cthulhunicron

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4-Nov-2012
Last activity
5-Apr-2020
Posts
173

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Post
#1333214
Topic
How do you feel about the inclusion of “Episode V” in ESB’s opening crawl in 1980?
Time

I grew up on the vhs releases in the early 90s and the episode numbers were confusing to me. Eventually I learned about Lucas’s plans to make prequels and it made a little more sense.

Sometimes I wish there was a version of the trilogy with no episode numbers. I’m not really opposed to the idea of prequels (I just wish they had been good) but I don’t like the idea of labeling the first movie in a franchise episode 4, even if it’s the 4th episode chronologically. I like the idea of Star Wars being the name of the saga, and I don’t mind the title A New Hope. So I kinda wish the original trilogy was episodes 1-3, and then the prequels had a different trilogy name. For example, they could be called the Clone Wars trilogy, or the Old Republic trilogy, or something. ANH and TPM could each be episode 1, but of two separate but related trilogies.

Post
#1328039
Topic
The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy
Time

I think you could also argue that a force user that is trying to maintain a balance between light and dark would not stay neutral. A grey force user, to me, seems more like ANH-era Han Solo, but with a lightsaber and force powers. I can see someone like that being guided somewhat by their emotions, and not afraid to get involved in a conflict if they’re angered by some injustice.

The problem that arises for me, is that this again doesn’t seem that dissimilar from a regular Jedi, just maybe a bit more self serving. We’re told from dialogue throughout all 9 movies that once you start embracing the dark side, it corrupts you. So even if someone believes they can maintain a balance between light and dark, I feel like they will still wind up being corrupted, based on the logic within the Star Wars films. The dark side is defined as embracing anger, hatred, and lust for power. I don’t really see why someone should try to incorporate those emotions into their life if they are seeking balance. I don’t see any evidence that TLJ or TROS are advocating a “middle path.” Luke says the Jedi need to end, but then later says he was wrong.

I think a lot of people are misinterpreting the dark side as simply being emotions, and that embracing the light side necessitates suppression of all emotions.

Post
#1327951
Topic
The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy
Time

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

All due respect: I’ve never understood this argument. I understand Taoist traditions, but I can’t comprehend a “good dark side user”. Love and passion aren’t equivalent to darkness, they just lead you to it if you aren’t careful.

Dare I say it, I don’t think the Jedi did anything wrong during the Clone Wars. A genius outsmarted them. Had Palpatine not been involved Anakin would have either peacefully left their order or broken off with Padme and firmly joined their cause. I just can’t see the Jedi losing the PT because they were “too good”.

The issue as many see with the Jedi’s approach is that they taught their students to essentially suppress any and all emotion that leads to the dark side. That’s unhealthy, and in the end we see that it leads to the dark side as well.

Personally, I feel that the Jedi are wrong about not allowing romantic love. However, I don’t think it means they are wrong to teach their students to resist the dark side, as I don’t equate romantic love with automatically being connected to the dark side. In my opinion, one can be fully aligned with the light side of the force, and still be in a relationship with someone.

Post
#1327913
Topic
The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy
Time

yotsuya said:

I take a lot of what George has said with a grain of salt. He on one hand says that the force is not ying and yang, but on the other that is how he wrote the stories. That is what Dave Filoni has taken from it and what shows up in Clone Wars and Rebels and The Last Jedi and The Rise of Skywalker. The way I take the events of the PT is that the Jedi have slide too far to the light and have tipped the balance while the Sith have grown in power. So both sides are out of whack and in need of a reset. The Jedi think the Chosen One will come and wipe out the Sith. The Sith don’t care. So the Chosen one comes and the Sith lure him to the dark side and he helps wipe out the Jedi. Then 23 years later he wipes out his sith master and comes back to the light side. He balanced the force by resetting everything leaving Luke to rebuild. But there are still other force users out there. In The Last Jedi they made it very clear (Following in line with The Clone Wars and rebels - both which Lucas consulted on and okayed) that it very much is a ying and yang and they need to be in balance. They can be in balance in each person. Ignoring either side creates the imbalance. Luke set out to rebuild the Old Republic Jedi and was reintroducing the imbalance in the system. The force reset again, but this time finding balance in a relatively untrained person who has read the ancient texts - from the time when the Jedi were the balanced force users. So while he said no yin/yang a time or two, the end result of what he created is exactly yin/yang. He’s done that a time or two so taking him 100% as his word is not always a safe bet. I think he would have abandoned his Whills idea. Now if they were the race we saw in Clone Wars, that would have been cool, but microscopic? No.

I’ve heard audio recordings of Lucas talking to the Clone Wars writers, saying that the dark side basically is imbalance. In the recording, he says that destroying the Sith equates to balancing the Force. Obi-Wan says this in ROTS. I don’t see much evidence (outside of Rebels) that the audience is supposed to think it’s bad or unbalanced to embrace the light side. Otherwise, Luke would be “unbalanced” when he spares Vader. I’ve always felt that in that moment, he’s even more in touch with the light side than Yoda or Obi-wan, since they were telling Luke to just kill Vader.

Post
#1320803
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Broom Kid said:

I think it’s definitely safe to say then, that what Burnett read on YouTube is 100% what Trevorrow was looking to make before that Jack Thorne draft came in, and then he left/got fired. If the only thing he’s commented on is that stuff in the art book isn’t referring to his drafts, and is no-commenting THE ACTUAL DRAFTS, especially considering how quick he was to deny credit for the Jack Thorne draft…

Episode IX: Duel of the Fates was almost the last chapter in the Skywalker Saga. Pretty crazy.

Speaking of YouTube - I almost checked out that MauLer guy, after seeing someone on another forum I visit link to a funny back and forth on his twitter and going “oh yeah, he’s a youtuber, the Original Trilogy guys seemed to vouch for him.” So I followed the link and looked at his profile and… He basically just stalks some other YouTuber called “MovieBob” and a critic named Patrick H. Willems. That seems to be the last two straight weeks of his twitter feed, at least. I scrolled down for awhile and he’s just making fun of “MovieBob’s” weight and Willems’ intelligence and screencapping tweets by a YouTuber named Jenny Nicholson, who I guess has already blocked him. I know I got called out earlier for “judging a book by its cover” but it really seems like he’s a pretty toxic media personality, to me. Nothing but personal attacks on other people and angry tweets about people not liking things the way he wants people to like them.

But I guess liking things and focusing on the things you like don’t get your Patreon numbers where they need to be…

Yeah I watched Mauler’s video and thought it was pretty stupid. He compares Kelly Marie Tran to Shrek, refers to the Force as “the gay,” and is constantly using really immature insults. I’m not exactly a huge fan of TROS, but his video was terrible, and it’s not surprising he’s obsessively harassing other YouTubers who are actually talented.

Post
#1320532
Topic
Small details that took you <em><strong>FOREVER</strong></em> to notice in the <em>Star Wars</em> films
Time

CatBus said:

Man behind desk [shouting]: WHAT DO YOU WANT?

Customer: Well… well, I was told outside that…

Man behind desk [shouting]: DON’T GIVE ME THAT, YOU SNOTTY-FACED HEAP OF PARROT DROPPINGS!

Customer: What?

Man behind desk [shouting]: SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT! YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE! YOU VACUOUS TOFFEE-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!

Customer: Yes, but I came here for an argument!

Man behind desk: Oh! Oh! I’m sorry! This is abuse!

Customer: Oh! Oh, I see!

Man behind desk: Aha! No, you want room 12A, next door.

Customer: Oh… Sorry…

Man behind desk: Not at all!

Man behind desk [under his breath]: Stupid git.

Oh man, I just saw that sketch for the first time a couple months ago.

Post
#1320211
Topic
Rumor - Star Wars: 2022 High Republic Era
Time

idir_hh said:

The republic was established a 1000 years before TPM.
“There hasn’t been a full-scale war since the formation of the Republic”-AOTC
This new series of movies starts 400 years before TPM

Where is the “war” in this Star War?

PS: pardon my pessimism.

Wasn’t the republic established 1000 generations (roughly 20,000 years) before A New Hope? I guess that would mean KOTOR technically creates a continuity error, as it depicts full scale wars 4000 years before Episode 1.

Post
#1320209
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

pleasehello said:

yotsuya said:

They are junk speeders and falling apart. The weapon is about to blast a whole in the very thick door and Finn is trying to fly down the barrel. His ship starts disintegrating around him and his weapons are destroyed. It took no brain power for me to understand Finn was going to kill himself and do no damage the first time I saw it. Nothing needs to be added or explained. None of it is fan theory. The movie properly shows us what we need instead of giving us a boring speech to lay it out. Show don’t tell is basic writing 101.

I disagree. It’s not made clear at all that his sacrifice would have had no effect. But I don’t think it matters. Either way, Rose’s point remains the same.

The first time I saw it, it seemed clear that he had a pretty good chance to destroy it. The front of the cannon is probably the weakest point.

Post
#1319956
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

ChainsawAsh said:

I agree that it’s goofy and dumb, but on my second viewing it became clear that the dude who killed Rey’s parents is the one who forged the knife, Sith runes and weird wreckage skyline and all, and that it was not some ancient artifact that completely coincidentally pointed to a certain spot in a wreck that didn’t exist 35 years ago, which was the impression I got the first time.

I still don’t get why Ochi left the wayfinder in the wreckage. He put all the navigation information into D-O, so we know he had the wayfinder at some point. Maybe he got it from a different wayfinder? I dunno.

Post
#1319806
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Broom Kid said:

Also, it never occurred to me that anyone would see the entire front half of the Death Star sunk into an ocean and think the tides would somehow be MOVING it. It’s not floating ON the water, and I can’t imagine the tides are so strong that it’s being pushed across the bottom of the sea floor, either.

The dagger is goofy and dumb, but to suggest it’s goofy and dumb because the Death Star would have moved in the meantime doesn’t really make any sense. It’s not like a lightweight piece of detritus. It’s the entire front half of a moon-sized battlestation. It’s not going anywhere because the tides are a little choppy.

It’s goofy and dumb because the dagger has no reason to exist. The tides are a very minor point. It seems like the wreckage would shift over time, due to a large part of it being flooded, but I suppose the dagger could have been made just a couple decades ago. But I’m still wondering who made it, and why they shaped it to match the skyline of the wreckage. It’s goofy and dumb because if Rey had been standing a bit closer to shore, or a few yards to the right, the dagger would have been useless.

Post
#1319170
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Broom Kid said:

Again, the big problem with devoting so much time and energy to a lot of these little fiddly details in the plotting is that even if those questions were answered satisfactorily within the narrative - it still wouldn’t be a good movie, would it?

If I put together a 1000 piece puzzle perfectly, but the picture I assemble with no missing pieces is of a broken mirror reflecting a junk-strewn yard… does it matter that all these fiddly details are there and accounted for?

the only notion I want to push back a little on in this ongoing discussion is that there are somehow ironclad “Star Wars Specific” rules that got broken here, and there aren’t, really. There are plenty of storytelling and filmmaking mistakes, and the normal sorts of things that happen to make ANY movie mediocre and uninteresting to sit through, but I don’t think most of The Rise of Skywalkers’ sins are specifically Star Wars related, and I don’t think if many of these grievances had been fixed prior to release, the reception would have been markedly different.

Star Wars tends to break its own “rules” with every movie anyway, and that’s good, honestly. They’re completely made up in the first place. So long as you can cleverly break them, with satisfactorily emotional results (even if the result is as surface level as “whoa, cool!”) then breaking “Star Wars” rules isn’t a big problem at all. Nobody’s going to Star Wars movies to see its rules upheld. They’re going to Star Wars to be emotionally engaged by the story being told. And that’s not really happening with Rise of Skywalker for a fair amount of its viewers.

I’m the first to agree that plot holes are usually the least important things to consider when evaluating a film. I generally focus more on the themes and the characters in the movie. The topic at hand was the things in the plot that don’t make sense, so that’s what my post was focused on. I have a number of other issues with this film regarding the tone, pacing, character arcs, dialogue, humor, and themes. So yes, even if the plot was more logical, it still wouldn’t make this a good movie.

But I still think it’s problem when you have so many vague and unexplained things in the story that the film becomes confusing.

Post
#1319127
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

OutboundFlight said:

Cthulhunicron said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

StarkillerAG said:

pleasehello said:

Valheru_84 said:

You’re not meant to stop and think and try to make sense of it all Hal 😉

You jest, but it’s true. That’s the way Star Wars has always been. It’s emotional, not logical. None of it makes any sense logically and if you think about the viability of certain plot elements in those terms, it falls apart. So no, you’re not meant to make sense of it all.

That’s not the way it used to be. The OT makes sense, every action is justified.

The walkers don’t make sense. Neither does the two-dimensional space flight. Nor the idea of a giant slug being sexually attracted to humanoid women.

Apples and oranges. There’s a slight suspension of disbelief with the original three movies. TROS is complete nonsense by comparison. Palpatine is resurrected with no explanation. The Sith Eternal somehow create a fleet bigger than the First Order with no explanation. The Sith fleet can’t leave Exegol even though apparently ships have been coming and going for decades. A gigantic piece of the Death Star survives the explosion in ROTJ and re-entry through an atmosphere with no explanation. Ochi for some reason has a dagger that is shaped to fit along the skyline of the wreckage, and for some reason it has Sith writing, telling him where to find the holocron, even though he already knows where it is. Did he make the dagger? Did he find it? Who knows, cause the movie never tells us. Hux saves Poe and Finn, despite not having any real reason to do so. I could go on and on.

Need I answer every question? Ok…

  1. Palpatine has a Sith Cult caring for him. I would imagine this same cult brought him from the Death Star (which we can see survived in part).

  2. Palpatine has the Empire’s resources while he as building the fleet. Probably with the intention of using them for the Empire before it died. The First Order was the remnants of Imperial Officers in the unknown regions, they didn’t have the same resources.

  3. The fleet might be big but it has a skeleton crew. Hence the need to leave by transmitter. This wasn’t a problem when there weren’t x-wings attacking.

  4. Physics has never mattered before: the Death Star can explode in any which way it wants.

  5. The dagger seems to have been a route for Ochi to reach Exogel. This makes sense because how else would be reach the hidden planet. Stuff like this shouldn’t be explained in flashbacks. It diminishes the story’s focus.

  6. Hux dislikes Ren. He wants him to lose power so he can take over. This is clearly established throughout the trilogy.

The point of this isn’t to answer random plot holes but to show the story is logical, it just requires a great deal of thinking and filling in blanks afterwards. The pacing is rushed to tell the full narrative. This fine by me if it means telling a more engaging story. No one wants to suddenly dive into a wookiepedia article as Palpatine explains all his friends on Kuat Drive Yards, which then have no relevance to the plot. What matters is he’s back and the galaxy needs to stop him.

  1. Every person I talk to about this movie has a different head canon regarding how he was brought back. I’m not saying it can’t be explained, I’m saying the movie doesn’t give an explanation. I’ve heard other people say that they thought the ROTJ emperor was a clone. I’ve heard other people theorize that all the Palpatines we’ve seen so far are clones, and the Exegol Palpatine has been pulling the strings the whole time.

2 & 3. Again, it’s vague and sloppy, and everybody seems to have different interpretations because none of it is clear. You’re saying they had the resources of the entire empire to build the fleet. Other people seem to think they only have the resources of one planet. My thinking is that they can’t have all the resources of the empire, since the empire was defeated in ROTJ. The visual dictionary offers a somewhat logical explanation about ships secretly delivering parts, but if that’s true, I don’t see why the fleet would be reliant on a navigational beacon to leave the planet. They can build hundreds of Death Star lasers, but they can’t put navigation computers on the ships? Clearly all the transports bringing supplies had the capability to navigate all the cosmic hazards surrounding Exegol, so it seems like it would be easy to transfer that capability to the Star destroyers. Rey sends the data from the holochron to the rebels and they send it to all the ships that show up at the end. They all leave the planet with no issues. Since the Sith eternal already have this navigation data, by the movie’s own rules, it should be super easy to just enter it into the computers on the ships.

I also don’t get the point of all the secrecy. The First Order rose from empire loyalists who were already loyal to Palpatine. Ben Solo was a Vader fanboy, you think he’d be overjoyed to find out he was serving Palpatine.

  1. The explosion was so huge, it looked like the largest pieces would be the size of city blocks. The piece we see in the ocean is so huge, the equatorial trench and part of the dish are still intact. We literally saw the dish while it exploded, and none of the pieces flying off were big enough to match the piece we see in the ocean.

  2. So you think Palpatine made the dagger? I thought Ochi went to Exegol to speak to Palpatine before killing Rey’s parents? Why wouldn’t he have the holochron with him? Wouldn’t he need it on his ship to get to Exegol? Still doesn’t explain why the dagger is shaped to match the skyline of the wreckage. Wreckage which is probably shifting over time. Why doesn’t Palpatine just say “find my throne room in the wreckage. The holochron’s in there.” Why even bother with the dagger?

  3. Hux doesn’t need to save Poe and Finn. He can let them be killed and he can continue to send info to the resistance. It’s just there to be a cheap twist and a way for the heroes to escape, but it doesn’t really make sense when you think about it.

I remembered a few more: Rey flies the X-wing despite it being submerged underwater for years. Palpatine’s force lightning is now powerful enough to take out an entire fleet. Why does he even need Star Destroyers? Why does he tell Kylo to kill Rey if he was planning on taking her body? How does Rey hear the voices of all those Jedi if, canonically, the only Jedis who could become Force ghosts are Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Luke, Yoda, and Leia? Why does Rey remember seeing Ochi’s ship leave Jakku? I thought the ship in the flashback was leaving her behind. Did Ochi put her on Jakku? I thought Ochi was supposed to kill her.

Post
#1319097
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DuracellEnergizer said:

StarkillerAG said:

pleasehello said:

Valheru_84 said:

You’re not meant to stop and think and try to make sense of it all Hal 😉

You jest, but it’s true. That’s the way Star Wars has always been. It’s emotional, not logical. None of it makes any sense logically and if you think about the viability of certain plot elements in those terms, it falls apart. So no, you’re not meant to make sense of it all.

That’s not the way it used to be. The OT makes sense, every action is justified.

The walkers don’t make sense. Neither does the two-dimensional space flight. Nor the idea of a giant slug being sexually attracted to humanoid women.

Apples and oranges. There’s a slight suspension of disbelief with the original three movies. TROS is complete nonsense by comparison. Palpatine is resurrected with no explanation. The Sith Eternal somehow create a fleet bigger than the First Order with no explanation. The Sith fleet can’t leave Exegol even though apparently ships have been coming and going for decades. A gigantic piece of the Death Star survives the explosion in ROTJ and re-entry through an atmosphere with no explanation. Ochi for some reason has a dagger that is shaped to fit along the skyline of the wreckage, and for some reason it has Sith writing, telling him where to find the holocron, even though he already knows where it is. Did he make the dagger? Did he find it? Who knows, cause the movie never tells us. Hux saves Poe and Finn, despite not having any real reason to do so. I could go on and on.

There’s a difference between a movie having a sci-fi/fantasy vibe where the science isn’t very accurate, and a movie being incomprehensible.

Post
#1318754
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Hal 9000 said:

I haven’t heard this come up, but if the Sith could muster “the largest fleet the galaxy has ever known” with full compliment seemingly from the resources of their own little planet, then why didn’t they do that pre-TPM? Why did the Sith need to carefully infiltrate the existing government and pull strings to secure an army? Couldn’t they have just taken over the galaxy by military force as TLJ implies the First Order was in the process of doing before Palpatine appeared and declared the First Order basically pointless?

I was confused about this as well. According to the visual dictionary for TROS, the Sith fleet was manufactured by Kuat shipyards. Apparently some of the Sith cultists worked at Kuat engineering and smuggled parts to Exegol. This kinda makes sense, though I don’t get why the fleet can’t navigate from Exegol despite all these ships going back and forth for 35 years, delivering parts.