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Creox

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29-Dec-2017
Last activity
11-Jul-2019
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156

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Post
#1288566
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

SWOTFAN25 said:

Guys I’m so sick of all the hate. I love you guys here. Even the people who dislike the new films are for the most part civillized. But everywhere else I go I just encounter the hivemind. I just want to be excited for this thing, and I think the whole sequel trilogy has been butchered by the fans. Idk is anyone else just fed up with the all the internet bullshit?

A long time ago…

The bullshit has infested most areas imo. News, entertainment…whatever.

Post
#1281275
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:

I disagree. I think the PT greatly expanded the universe and the lore, and while there are obvious issues in the execution, conceptually the PT is pretty strong, and imaginative. Lucas’ concepts combined with better dialogue and a good director would have resulted in some very good films, I believe, whereas I believe the ST thusfar is much more flawed on a conceptual level, whilst being pretty unimaginative, driven largely by nostalgia, but is able to translate what little there is better to the screen.

Eh. It’s all pretty dumb to be honest, the way Yoda teaches in a tiny room of kids, the midichlorians, the rule of two, the idea one Sith can cloud the minds of an entire Jedi council. For all the problems in TLJ it at least roots the idea of the force in ESB territory. On topic I worry how EpIX will try and connect the to disparate eras. Probably in a way that’s embarrassing.

To each his own, I suppose. I personally am not a fan of a corporation taking someone else’s creation, and rooting it somewhere the creator didn’t intend, or no longer intends. It’s Lucas’ saga in my mind, and I’m happy to accept both his original vision, the OOT, and his revised vision, the PT and the SE wrats and all. I would like the current owners to honour that legacy, and Lucas’ vision for the universe and characters he created, and then forge a new future with new material taking it wherever they want, whether it be in TESB territory or otherwise. In any case I don’t see how TLJ with its instant Force powers recieved from on high, light side and dark side balancing each other in quite a literal sense, and critical perspective on the Jedi is any closer to TESB territory than the PT. In TESB becoming a Jedi and mastering the powers that come with it, still took a lot of effort, and the Jedi were still the mythical guardians of peace and justice, an ideal that was still beyond reproach, left mostly to the imagination. We all take something different from these films, and to some what is displayed in the new films may be consistent with what they took from the OT, whereas for others it isn’t. For me certain aspects of the Force in the ST are closer to the OT than the PT, going back to a more mysterious energy field, but in other ways they are worlds apart, ditching the studying required to master Force powers, and the theme of temptation by the dark side that used to be intimately connected to this process, a theme largely developed in TESB, that then became integral to the entire saga up till the ST.

If it was rooted where GL originally intended it is very likely this series would never have been outside of the first one. His ideas for the sequels were atrocious imo.

At the very least he should not have sold LA if he didn’t want someone to change anything.

Post
#1278674
Topic
Can't be Bothered: justifying Rey's power vs Luke's
Time

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

I just found this and read the first post. I had to laugh at the idea that Rey flew the Falcon so well. She practically crashed the thing trying to take off. Once they were in the air she did pretty good, but when you compare that to Luke, he flew his X-wing like a pro from the beginning.

Luke is the best stunt pilot in the outer rim territories, and has clearly been flying for years. And it’s notable that even he never does anything terribly flashy in the OT. Rey’s handling of the Falcon is about how you’d expect in the first few moments, but after that she successfully executes maneuvers far in excess of anything we’ve seen before. If anything, the contrast between almost crashing and ace-level piloting makes her abilities all the more noticeable.

Rey has to try things before she succeeds, pretty much the way Luke did. And she does have a teacher. She learns just about everything she does from Kylo Ren.

She has never seen Klyo use a Jedi mind trick or even successfully gain his desired information from interrogation, though she manages a successful and proper mind trick after a minute or two of trying.
She has never seen successful telekinesis or levitation, yet apparently learns this on the first attempt after only a moment of intention from Kylo. Interestingly, Kylo never indicates that he is aware of teaching Rey ‘You need a teacher! I can show you the ways of the Force!’ and Rey never acknowledges that she has gained knowledge from Kylo ‘The Force…’.

I’d still like to know who taught Luke to lift his lightsaber in TESB.

If only there was some sort of Jedi mentor which has been established to help Luke from beyond the grave, or a time jump of several years to help the audience suspend their disbelief. Or both.

How about waiting until IX is out and then perhaps many of your questions will have answers.

Post
#1276705
Topic
The Worst Scene/Sequence in Any Star Wars Film
Time

CourtlyHades296 said:

TPM: Jar Jar stepping on poop
AOTC: The head swap
ROTS: Anakin murdering younglings
Solo: L3’s introduction
R1: Ponda Baba cameo
ANH: Leia’s British accent
ESB: The incestuous kiss
ROTJ: “Somehow I’ve always known”
TFA: Revealing Kylo Ren’s parentage too early
TLJ: Maz cameo

I’m curious why you didn’t like the Ponda cameo? Just that it exists?

Post
#1276016
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DuracellEnergizer said:

Biggs Audio Dynamite said:

So you are repeating yourself.

Everyone repeats themselves here. I don’t know why anyone bothers making new posts anymore; they may as well just quote themselves from months ago; it isn’t as if they’ve gained new insights or revised their opinions in the interim.

Some repeat themselves more than others. 😉

Post
#1270705
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

It is my opinion, that many of the new elements introduced by TFA and especially TLJ to stitch the different OT settings, elements and story threads together are not properly developed or placed in the context of the larger saga, and thus rather than enrich the Star Wars universe, stick out like a sore thumb. So, in my view episode IX has the difficult task to integrate and further develop these half cooked new concepts, such that it all makes sense once the nine part saga is completed. If it succeeds, and I hope it does, I might see TFA, and TLJ in a different, more positive light.

I think the three trilogies mark one large arc (obviously) that cannot be veered from too much. I understand your concerns with the ST in that we are seeing the OT rearranged in a manner that is quite familiar. This was done so it would appeal to a larger audience and make more money…period. Of course TLJ has really pissed off a certain segment of the fan base but it really just tells the OT story in a different way.

While I am very excited for IX I am just as interested in the continued spin offs and Rian’s trilogy. I think we will see things branch out into new directions.

Post
#1270704
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

pleasehello said:

Creox said:

I also think veering off too much and you have a SW indie film that a lot fewer people will want to see.

But would probably be infinitely more interesting. I’m probably in the minority here, but I would love to see a Star Wars story done on a smaller scale. You don’t need $200 million to make a good Star Wars movie.

Oh, I agree so please don’t get me wrong. My comments were purely within the context of Disney recouping their 4 billion dollar investment…though, The OT was the beginning of the blockbuster more or less as well.

I would be overjoyed to see a small and smart indie SW film and tbh I think that is where the franchise is going imo. We are seeing a template for an expanded universe vis a vis the MCU I think. For me, it is a great time to be a SW fan.

Post
#1270564
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DrDre said:

I view the ST thusfar as a somewhat failed experiment, not unlike the PT. In my view the OT is a self-contained story with a clear beginning, middle and end, with clear character arcs. That story has gotten lost somewhat with the addition of the PT, and ST. Both the PT and ST are superfluous imo, and cannot stand on their own. They both add something to the overall narrative, and lore, but at a hefty price. To me the overall narrative of the six part “tragedy of Anakin Skywalker” is significantly weaker than the three part “adventures of Luke Skywalker”, and the thusfar eight part “Skywalker saga” is weaker still. However, in the case of the PT, aside from the poor execution of many elements, the faults were built in from the get go, where the story’s outcome was a foregone conclusion, and it’s self-referential nature part of it’s DNA. It was therefore self-evident that story choices in the PT, might clash with the previously established self-contained story of the OT. It might have been better to have the PT be set in a much earlier time, or an earlier conflict to provide more of a disconnect between the PT and OT timelines, thus ensuring the OT’s narrative is not significantly impacted by the addition of episodes 1 to 3.

With the ST however the creators were free to forge their own path, to create new settings, new aesthetics, and a new conflict to drive the story forward. In my view this did not happen. The ST and Disney’s additions to the franchise in general have been self-referential to a fault, whether it’s by copying the OT’s settings, aesthetic, and general plot, or whether it is by using the OT’s story threads, and set pieces to misdirect, and subvert expectations, the ST at its core thusfar has failed to provide us with a new setting, and new story. It’s the current generation’s updated and modernized OT, where history seems destined to repeat itself ad nauseum:

The big question for me will be, whether episode IX can break through this cycle? If not, I fear for the future of the franchise, where in a worst case scenario Disney Star Wars will forever be a cover band playing Lucas’ greatest hits, changing the order of the verses with some newly updated (and in some cases inappropriate) arrangements, rather than to take Lucas’ style of music, and create some genuinely new songs.

And yet…people who do not like the film say it isn’t like the OT in many ways. That it broke the promise of the SW universe, the feel of the original films.

I agree with your thoughts on certain aspects of the film being quite similar or even the same (more or less). I could say that about the Bond films or even the MU (villains, save the world etc.)

I would also like Disney to push the envelope and I think they have plans to do exactly that with spinoffs and Rian’s planned trilogy. He did say the characters would have nothing in common with the PT, OT or ST.

The three trilogies have to have familiarity imo so continuum is preserved. They also need to make a lot of money because they cost a lot of money. I also think veering off too much and you have a SW indie film that a lot fewer people will want to see.

Post
#1270118
Topic
Rey and Jedi Training
Time

Shopping Maul said:

The Force is space-magic and therefore subjective. You could have a story where Rey treats the Starkiller Base like a yo-yo and hurls it into a black hole, and no-one could truly say you were ‘wrong’. Size matters not right?

The Force has been bent and morphed throughout the saga, but for me the best interpretation is in TESB. I know deleted scenes don’t count, but they do give an insight into the writer/director’s intentions at the time. There’s a moment that was cut (but made it into the comics and novelisations) where Yoda tosses a metal bar into the air and Luke attempts to slice it with his Lightsaber. He misses entirely, and pants “I can’t, not after running miles with you on my back…so tired”. Yoda responds with “the bar would be in seven pieces were you a Jedi”.

Later Luke has better luck with the test, severing the bar into four pieces. “Much progress you make young one” says Yoda. “Stronger do you grow”. But Luke’s not satisfied. “Let me try again, I can do seven. I’m angry enough to…” and Yoda’s like “no, no, anger, fear, aggression - the path to the dark side are they…” etc etc.

The trajectory here is clear (and I think TESB supports this even without these scenes). Training is required - discipline, resolve, clarity, purity of intention, physical strength/prowess. This is why Luke is special in the saga, even when he is still a novice. Becoming a Jedi is hard, really hard. Luke learns the hard way that his piloting skills and naive confidence/optimism are not enough - not by a longshot. He’s gone to Dagobah expecting straight-up warrior training and discovers that he has to become a freaking Buddhist! That’s why Han can’t be a Jedi, or Lando or Boba Fett or any random dude/dudette with fighting skills and self-confidence.

If the stories stray too far from this central premise - that Jedi proficiency is difficult and unique and riddled with potential failure - then not only does the Force become rather trite but the journey of Luke Skywalker (and by association the tremendous amount of personal investment in him during the OT) is greatly diminished.

I get that the idea is Rey has fastracked the power side of things through the harshness of her life on Jakku. But I think the writers went too far in having her pull mind tricks and levitation and kicking the crap out of Jedi Masters after two days. I can’t fault your post - like I said it’s subjective space-magic - but I think more thoughtful writing and a better sense of nuance could have made Rey’s journey different and unique without diminishing what has gone before.

Here’s a thought. Perhaps her and Kylo are the epitome of force users. She’s not a Mary sue but the last conduit for the force, light and dark. She is the first to access and use the full potential of it?

Post
#1269932
Topic
Rey and Jedi Training
Time

I agree with your thoughts on the matter.

The bigger issue imo is that the internet marginalizes many differing viewpoints that end up resembling echo chambers for like minded individuals.

They perform a nice feedback loop that doesn’t accept other opinions very well.

With that being said, I think TLJ activated the most vitriolic segments of that echo-chamber that are relatively smaller in number to general fans but are much louder. This includes the “mary sue” segment, the SJW segment etc.

Post
#1267323
Topic
The Worst Scene/Sequence in Any Star Wars Film
Time

OutboundFlight said:

snooker said:

OutboundFlight said:

snooker said:

I feel like the Death Star existing at all ruins all of Star Wars, from a certain point of view.

The Americans have built (and used) the nuke, what does everyone else do? They build their own, of course! Why doesn’t the Republic start building Death Stars after VI, or, better yet, why doesn’t the Empire build like 20 after their rise to power? Realistically the sequel trilogy should be about two sides having nuclear bombs pointed at each other yelling.

But it’s Star Wars, so it doesn’t need to make realistic, logical sense. The expanded universe tells us all the reasons that this doesn’t happen. Moviegoers don’t get that info, but they don’t care because the story is about the characters.

The Atomic Bomb is different because it has never been used by bad people. It’s two proper uses were the lesser of two evils at a time of world war. But if North Korea started decimating cities with no weapons, I’d bet the entire world would illegalize nukes once North Korea’s dealt with.

My sweet summer child…

Geneva Convention?

There is good evidence the bombs did not have to be dropped and that the US did so to let the USSR know they had them.

Post
#1266215
Topic
1975 Ship Models - Visible for 1st time
Time

SilverWook said:

timdiggerm said:

Possibly worth noting, given the nature of his website and the way he’s only posting little, skewed thumbnails, that this is essentially an advertisement.

The thought crossed my mind, and someone also pointed out to me in a PM that several other SW forums got the exact same post. But we got a nice thread out of it, and we need more of those around here. Never look a gift Taun Taun in the mouth. 😃

Probably is but I’m cool with that. I’ve never got a look at these early models. To see pictures of them in 1975 is awesome. The early falcon model amazes me because of how iconic the ship today.

Post
#1263239
Topic
Obi_Wan's Reaction in Star Wars IV
Time

crpl_hicks said:

Don’t know if this has been discussed before, but it’s always intrigued me. In Star Wars IV when Obi wan is talking to Luke, right after Obi-Wan gives him the lightsaber, Alec Guiness has this “hesitant” look about him when Luke asked him how his father was killed. It’s @ 31:53.

I’ve always wondered if:

  1. Alec Guiness was told by Lucas to do this and didn’t tell him why.
  2. Alec Guiness was told by Lucas that Obi-wan killed Luke’s dad, but no other cast member knew.
  3. Alec Guiness did this subtle hesitation out of pure acting skill.

However it was accomplished, I’ve always thought, WOW…when you look back & pay attention to that micro second, that look on Alec Guiness’s face…it’s like he knkew something no one else did?

I don’t know all the lore, so I don’t know if Lucas had “fleshed” out the whole story when it came time to shoot this scene. I recently saw an episode of the Graham Norton Show with the cast of the Last Jedi & Mark Hamill told the story of shooting the Empire scene where Vaders tells Luke he is his father…that on Set the line actually said was…“Obi-Wan Killed your father”. it wasn’t until after that scene he was told by Director Kershner what the line was really going to be (post production and that only Mark, Lucas & Kershner knew this.

Here’s the Link, it’s @ :50 sec…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsSKFlk8oEo

So this got me thinking about the Obi_Wan scene in Star Wars IV.

Thoughts??

If what Mark says is accurate then it was your third choice as Guiness would not been privy to the added dialogue later.

Is there any evidence Mark is mistaken?

Post
#1245858
Topic
Is Kylo Ren a Good Villain?
Time

yotsuya said:

Well, if they go the direction I think they will (which has not proven the case so far - I don’t have a good track record for guessing these things, but I remain hopeful), then the finale will see Rey and Kylo end up on the same side as founders of a new, stronger Jedi order. Instead of training the new generation to completely avoid the temptation, they will teach the new generation how to judiciously tap into the power of the dark side without falling victim to its temptations. Kylo will let go of the anger and hate and come back to a balanced place.

I thought similarly. I would like to see that ending.

Post
#1245855
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

yotsuya said:

Creox said:

yotsuya said:

It is interesting how I answer your point and yet you quote something else. I specifically mentioned Plato’s Stepchildren which has no more explanation of the mysterious powers within the episode than Star Wars has. The episode mentioned the mysterious and undefined chemical compound kironide. It never explains how that chemical results in the psychokinetic powers the Platonians exhibit. Ben’s description of the Force as an energy filed created by all living things that surrounds and binds is a more detailed description than Plato’s Stepchildren ever gives. Such psychokinentic powers can not be proven to exist in our world, yet the Platonians have them and the Q have them to an even greater extent. Gary Mitchell was developing them, as was Dr. Dehner. None of these are ever given any detailed description. Isaac Asimov had his character of The Mule who could reprogram people’s minds. He didn’t have to touch them and could do a whole room full of people at once with the aid of a special musical instrument. He could even kill with his mind. He later (post ROTJ) expanded that to an entire planet with The Mule being an escapee. He had a robot initially learn the skill and teach another robot who in turn established the planet. Asimov is one of the three greats of science fiction and he didn’t hesitate to have characters with mental powers that defy science and logic.

So the argument that the Force makes Star Wars a fantasy does not hold up to comparison to established science fiction content.

I see SW as having fantasy elements due to several things. The force being just one of them. The robes, the mystical elements that give nods to supernatural reasoning for things happening the way they do. The classic knight in shining armour trope with the (not so) damsel in distress etc.

The old wise man who is obviously a nod to the wizard type of character you would see in a typical Tolkienesque fantasy. The swords being used as a “elegant weapon of a more civilized age” definitely suggests a King Arthur and knights of the round table. The classic good and evil sides doing battle…that they take place in space is incidental in a lot of cases.

But those things don’t qualify for distinguishing genre. The robes came from Samurai films. So did the swords. Old wise men are found in all genres. What distinguishes Science Fiction from Fantasy is the nature of the story, not the characters. Star Wars, for all its use of the Force and Space Opera tropes, is a very grounded story about good and evil and rebellion against oppression. And it is the sort of good and evil we find in every day lives. Anger, fear, lust, passion, vs. calm, instincts, thoughtfulness, wisdom. The force is more about morality than it is about magic.

It does for me as I mentioned at the beginning of my post. The big picture I get from this thread is that the are so many facets to a movie genre. It’s impossible for many movies to be labeled with just one.

Post
#1245730
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

yotsuya said:

It is interesting how I answer your point and yet you quote something else. I specifically mentioned Plato’s Stepchildren which has no more explanation of the mysterious powers within the episode than Star Wars has. The episode mentioned the mysterious and undefined chemical compound kironide. It never explains how that chemical results in the psychokinetic powers the Platonians exhibit. Ben’s description of the Force as an energy filed created by all living things that surrounds and binds is a more detailed description than Plato’s Stepchildren ever gives. Such psychokinentic powers can not be proven to exist in our world, yet the Platonians have them and the Q have them to an even greater extent. Gary Mitchell was developing them, as was Dr. Dehner. None of these are ever given any detailed description. Isaac Asimov had his character of The Mule who could reprogram people’s minds. He didn’t have to touch them and could do a whole room full of people at once with the aid of a special musical instrument. He could even kill with his mind. He later (post ROTJ) expanded that to an entire planet with The Mule being an escapee. He had a robot initially learn the skill and teach another robot who in turn established the planet. Asimov is one of the three greats of science fiction and he didn’t hesitate to have characters with mental powers that defy science and logic.

So the argument that the Force makes Star Wars a fantasy does not hold up to comparison to established science fiction content.

I see SW as having fantasy elements due to several things. The force being just one of them. The robes, the mystical elements that give nods to supernatural reasoning for things happening the way they do. The classic knight in shining armour trope with the (not so) damsel in distress etc.

The old wise man who is obviously a nod to the wizard type of character you would see in a typical Tolkienesque fantasy. The swords being used as a “elegant weapon of a more civilized age” definitely suggests a King Arthur and knights of the round table. The classic good and evil sides doing battle…that they take place in space is incidental in a lot of cases.

Post
#1245727
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

yotsuya said:

Yeah, a creative person can call their creation whatever they like, that does not mean it does not fit nicely in an existing genre.

He can and he did…That being said I would add a little more emphasis to his decision to call his creation that then some anonymous guy on the internet defines it. He wasn’t a rookie when he made SW and had been immersed in movie making and its history for some time. IOW he certainly knew what he wanted to call it.