Creox

Slavicuss said:

Creox said:

Does anyone know WHY Lucas stubbornly clings to his decision? Is he embarrassed about the original release or is he just being that controlling of his creation? or is it something else?

I find his decision to date quite puzzling on the surface of it.

Spite. He’s pissed the fans didn’t take to his prequels the way they did the original films. So he denies them the originals they hold dear. That’s my take.

He also believes the original versions came up short (for whatever reasons) and wants to improve them, but that’s no excuse for trying to bury them. All versions can coexist as other box sets (CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND, ALIEN, BLADE RUNNER, etc) have demonstrated.

I cannot think of another director that has treated one of their films in this manner…does anyone know of one?

Hal 9000 said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Saw it again today. Liked it even more. Definitely my 3rd favorite behind ESB and ANH.

I want to understand you.

“Conference room. Now.”

The one thing I can say for sure, outside of liking the film as well, is that there is really little consensus from viewers. Hard core fans or not.

Broom Kid said:

Star Wars was never a “niche” genre. It’s not a genre unto itself (despite various people’s attempts to make it as such) either. And if you see a similarity between superheroes and fantasy-based mythologies, it’s because they both draw from the same ideas. Jedi are, more or less, superheroes.

In 1977, what Lucas was doing with Star Wars was visually unlike anything ever tried within the sci-fi/fantasy genres, and it was also considered to be FAST. Very, very fast. It seems slow now, but in 1977 the editing and pacing of that movie was considered breakneck. You’re arguing it has to look and feel like it did in 1977 and that’s death. It’s got to speak to the kids who are watching the movies in the time period they’re coming out, so they can grab onto it without having to read a bunch of wikipedia entries or watch a bunch of YouTube videos to find a hook or an “in” for the movies.

If it shares the same visual language with other movies they like, and then uses that shared language to introduce new ideas on top of that, then it works! Part of the reason The Force Awakens made as much money as it did is BECAUSE it moved like an Abrams film while looking like a Star Wars movie, for lack of a better term. All the iconography people recognized for 40 years was being lit, shot, framed, and edited in a way they’d never seen it before, and that was EXCITING. It wasn’t JUST nostalgia at play. The filmmaking DID matter.

There’s no real reason to handcuff directors and cinematographers who have more -and better- tools, to styles developed 40 years ago. Or even 30 years ago. It just doesn’t make sense. Star Wars can’t be hermetically sealed off like that, it’s going to suffocate that way. And it’s not like other films and filmmakers are going to sit around and decline using those tools to tell their own stories. People are going to go to the theaters not to hear new stories, because most stories have almost NOTHING new to them. But they will go to see new ways of telling them. Star Wars needs to be part of that. If that means whip pans, crazy camera moves, speed ramping… so be it. So long as the tool is right for the story element being executed, to quote a certain Chancellor: DEW IT.

Couldn’t agree more but I like movies from the golden era simply because of the way they were shot with the tools they had. It marks the film of that era that appeals to me. OTOH I also want to experience a film of the current day for the same reasons. Depends on my mood tbh. I think a lot of the issues with some viewers is that the SW they grew up with happen to use the tools they had at the time they were filmed and that is the SW that is true for them.

NeverarGreat said:

The more I think about Palpatine’s survival, the more I like it. Here’s why:

• The act of Anakin which turns him back to the light does not result in a murder. The lasting legacy of his action is that of saving Luke, not in destroying the Emperor.

• Related to the first point, Anakin’s destiny is never to fulfill a prophecy. The balance that he achieves is an inward one, rather than outward.

• Anakin’s overthrow of Palpatine results in him being horribly mutilated beyond what happened in Episode 3, and requires him to be hooked up to machines for thirty years in a twisted act of cosmic justice.

• This turns ROTJ into a dark cliffhanger with the addition of something as simple as the Emperor’s laugh at the end of the credits.

• As I’ve said before, the explanation of Sheeve’s plan for immortality makes sense of the nonsensical Sith lore and goes a long way towards explaining his silly actions in the throne room scene from ROTJ.

And there is precedence from some books and comics…This wasn’t pulled full cloth out of Abrams butt.

MisterBenja1977 said:

No offense. So glad I watched this movie and enjoyed it before I came on here.

ROFL…

This is the land of the nitpick and uber-analysis…tis true. That being said I do enjoy it, especially after a new release…ftr I really like the movie as well.

The one take away I have so far from looking at multiple sources of reviews is that there is no consensus.

4throck said:

[ray_afraid said:]
I’ve never been able to figure out how to do this, though I’ve been told my entire life that it would increase my enjoyment of movies considerably.

Then I guess you went do see the wrong movie for you 😁

For the record my top movie of all time is probably Stalker, so yes, I enjoy adult cerebral stuff.

But if you want to enjoy blockbusters then yes, shutting down your brain helps 🤣

Love Stalker but it required multiple viewings for me to get to that point.

TomGun said:

I’ll just ignore what “everyone” is saying, by stating that I liked it. I really did. I liked TFA and TLJ as well. And yes, I liked Solo, too. I have spoken.

Lots wrong in the movie but there is stuff like that in every one of them to some extent. I agree with you here…I liked all three of them loved parts of TROS…To each their own.

ESB is the better directed film imo but ANH has a certain quality that has never been duplicated. I’m guessing it’s due to it being made when there was no clue to what it would become and it being the first SW movie made as well. It feels very different to me when I watch compared to the 8 that came after.

CatBus said:

Creox said:

Does anyone know WHY Lucas stubbornly clings to his decision? Is he embarrassed about the original release or is he just being that controlling of his creation? or is it something else?

I find his decision to date quite puzzling on the surface of it.

I honestly believe he likes the latest SE revisions better, and it does more closely align with his original vision (in a general sense, clearly not the specifics). Keep in mind that Star Wars and Empire at least were heavily collaborative efforts, and Lucas was not anywhere near the final authority on Star Wars. He was involved, but he didn’t direct Empire and it showed. Other people could talk him out of his dumber ideas, and he was unsure enough of himself that he’d listen.

Now, it’s all Lucas, unfiltered. And yeah, that sucks.

SW is definitely his baby but one that was ran through a lot of other people’s filters before we ever saw it. Yep.

DrDre said:

Creox said:

Does anyone know WHY Lucas stubbornly clings to his decision? Is he embarrassed about the original release or is he just being that controlling of his creation? or is it something else?

I find his decision to date quite puzzling on the surface of it.

I read a few years back, that Lucas once attended a screening of Star Wars, and only while watching it realized it was the theatrical cut. He seemed very uncomfortable watching it. I think he really feels the theatrical versions are unfinished to the point, that he’s embarrassed about the technical flaws in the film, like for example the blob underneath the speeder, or the degradation of several shots, due to optical compositing.

Thanks for that…That is what I generally thought. I find it a real let down that he would not be as or more interested in preserving his original creation if even for posterity let alone history.

He could have released all of his versions aka Blade Runner but his decision to date reflects a narcissistic or selfishness like “no one can have it because I don’t like the way it looks”…sigh.

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

Peter Pan said:

Creox said:

act on instinct said:

But at what cost!?

As one who loved TLJ and the risks it took, I would say the cost was caving into fan service over originality. I really liked a lot about TROS but an extension of what Rian started would have been a lot better imo.

Just rewatched TLJ and have to agree, it is pure magic and imo easily the greatest Star Wars.

That’s saying something…seriously. I rank TLJ number three (or four depending on what day you ask)

I rank it at the bottom. For me it fundamentally clashes with the story and characters Lucas envisioned. I really don’t like the meta approach to Star Wars, even if I don’t think it is a bad film when viewed in isolation.

It definitely clashes and is one of the things I do like about it.

We all have our own experiences, our own conceptions of the series, what it means and what it is. I don’t find it to clash at all - it feels perfectly Star Wars to me which is why I love it so much. A true continuation of the saga.

TROS… not so much. TROS feels a bit more like the PT to me - interesting ideas, poor execution. Ultimately extraneous.

The things that I think clash are the choices Rian made with regards to Luke’s reasoning for blocking his connection to the force, that a “nobody” can be a force user etc. I have posted elsewhere that I think TLJ is in my top three ep in the saga. Those decisions by Rian are the main reason for that.

DrDre said:

Creox said:

Peter Pan said:

Creox said:

act on instinct said:

But at what cost!?

As one who loved TLJ and the risks it took, I would say the cost was caving into fan service over originality. I really liked a lot about TROS but an extension of what Rian started would have been a lot better imo.

Just rewatched TLJ and have to agree, it is pure magic and imo easily the greatest Star Wars.

That’s saying something…seriously. I rank TLJ number three (or four depending on what day you ask)

I rank it at the bottom. For me it fundamentally clashes with the story and characters Lucas envisioned. I really don’t like the meta approach to Star Wars, even if I don’t think it is a bad film when viewed in isolation.

It definitely clashes and is one of the things I do like about it.

Peter Pan said:

Creox said:

I posted a short while ago about how I would have liked to see TROS remove the extremes of the Jedi and Sith orders and replace them with the “grey” as has been bandied about for a while now…I said I thought TROS brought a smidge of that to light but did not see it through.

I just read this comment in the following YouTube video about the Easter eggs in the movie (I got almost all of them but they aren’t that difficult to spot)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NajCKoU4x8k

The post is from someone called “Tyler Rice” and I was intrigued.

1. Anikan was created by palpatine, allowing palpatine to control how powerful he could become, while Rey, still from palpatine, was not under his control and was able to keep growing, and because the force chose her as the true chosen one it made her strong.

2. Rey and kylo form the dyad, two foce sensitive beings connected to become stronger, thing yin and yang. Rey came from darkness and went to light while kylo came from light and went to darkness. They form one complete chosen one, the dyad.

3. When they healed each other bits of their life force went into themselves meaning they exchanged energies , kylo with his dark energy and rwy with her light energy. In the end rey ended up with light and dark within her which is why she had a yellow saber in the end, she had officially become a grey Jedi, or Skywalker have you.

4. The prophecy always said that the chosen one would bring true balance to the force. Well after return of the Jedi, Luke was what was lefy, a Jedi. The force can not be balanced while one extreme side of the spectrum still exists. So when palpatine returned he took kylo so Rey and like remained. All the Skywalker’s died and kylo basically transfered his life force into her and her being a palpatine makes her lightpath still have darkness in it as well meaning she is a grey Jedi or Skywalker meaning that both pure Jedi and pure sith were gone forever, achieving real balance in the force.

Thoughts?

On paper this sounds well thought out, but what the grand finale shew was once more the destruction and ultimately the denial of evil. Without being aware of evil you can’t evaluate its influence on you nor have a balanced view.

I look at it as the destruction of the Sith rather than the dark side. Rey lives with both regardless and as such personifies the balance “The One” was supposed to bring. I agree the guys post is clunky but I like the gist of it.

I posted a short while ago about how I would have liked to see TROS remove the extremes of the Jedi and Sith orders and replace them with the “grey” as has been bandied about for a while now…I said I thought TROS brought a smidge of that to light but did not see it through.

I just read this comment in the following YouTube video about the Easter eggs in the movie (I got almost all of them but they aren’t that difficult to spot)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NajCKoU4x8k

The post is from someone called “Tyler Rice” and I was intrigued.

1. Anikan was created by palpatine, allowing palpatine to control how powerful he could become, while Rey, still from palpatine, was not under his control and was able to keep growing, and because the force chose her as the true chosen one it made her strong.

2. Rey and kylo form the dyad, two foce sensitive beings connected to become stronger, thing yin and yang. Rey came from darkness and went to light while kylo came from light and went to darkness. They form one complete chosen one, the dyad.

3. When they healed each other bits of their life force went into themselves meaning they exchanged energies , kylo with his dark energy and rwy with her light energy. In the end rey ended up with light and dark within her which is why she had a yellow saber in the end, she had officially become a grey Jedi, or Skywalker have you.

4. The prophecy always said that the chosen one would bring true balance to the force. Well after return of the Jedi, Luke was what was lefy, a Jedi. The force can not be balanced while one extreme side of the spectrum still exists. So when palpatine returned he took kylo so Rey and like remained. All the Skywalker’s died and kylo basically transfered his life force into her and her being a palpatine makes her lightpath still have darkness in it as well meaning she is a grey Jedi or Skywalker meaning that both pure Jedi and pure sith were gone forever, achieving real balance in the force.

Thoughts?

Peter Pan said:

Creox said:

act on instinct said:

But at what cost!?

As one who loved TLJ and the risks it took, I would say the cost was caving into fan service over originality. I really liked a lot about TROS but an extension of what Rian started would have been a lot better imo.

Just rewatched TLJ and have to agree, it is pure magic and imo easily the greatest Star Wars.

That’s saying something…seriously. I rank TLJ number three (or four depending on what day you ask)

Does anyone know WHY Lucas stubbornly clings to his decision? Is he embarrassed about the original release or is he just being that controlling of his creation? or is it something else?

I find his decision to date quite puzzling on the surface of it.

act on instinct said:

But at what cost!?

As one who loved TLJ and the risks it took, I would say the cost was caving into fan service over originality. I really liked a lot about TROS but an extension of what Rian started would have been a lot better imo.

I would welcome an extended edition as it is obvious (to me) that there was a lot of editing for run time that could flesh out some plotlines.

act on instinct said:

Some of you here really feel the same way about ROTJ dropping the ball, and though I don’t care much for any of the sequels I finally understand. At the end of the day I still think ROTJ holds it together better but that may be by default. TROS is a regressive echo, I feel that pain for those who dislike the finale of the OT, now we’re living it again.

New theory: did TROS sacrifice itself to save Star Wars? We are back to square one again, maybe if this trilogy was some LOTR masterpiece all filmed at once and planned ahead we could never escape it or the Skywalkers. The future is up in the air but I guess failure is the greatest teacher, better luck next time?

Right now, I think Abrams had clear direction from up above that TROS had to not replay TLJ as far as fan response is concerned. In that he succeeded if you go by the verified audience scores so far. Total mirror opposite of TLJ.

theprequelsrule said:

Creox said:

theprequelsrule said:

Hmm…the last 6 posts or so seem to suggest that Star Wars has become the brainless entertainment it’s critics always claimed it was.

And we fans are happy to settle for this now. Can’t wait for Michael Bay to direct the Sequel-Sequel Trilogy!

Heh

Exactly. SW for me has always been awesome popcorn movies. Get lost in the spectacle and exhilaration of it for a couple of hours. The only reason I have such strong emotions of it are due to the time I first saw ANH (12 years old) and how that grew as time went on. I’m in my 50’s now and TROS honestly had be so nostalgic for that first viewing and how I felt then that I was tearing up…powerful stuff that Abrams knows how to create for those of us like me. If I had just seen the OT recently or my first exposure was the PT I wouldn’t have felt the same I think.

Star Wars is Lightning in a Bottle - that happened twice (or three times, depends how you feel about ROTJ). It should have been silly…but it wasn’t. It should have just been meaningless fun…but it ended up saying something important that resonated with millions around the world. We should be surprised that it ever was so great, not scratch our heads trying to figure out why it is so mediocre now.

Nothing lasts forever and I think going nine movies was a mistake but since they did I was quite happy to watch them…the ST was a fun trip down nostalgia lane for me even if they don’t compare to the OT. I really enjoyed TROS at any rate regardless.

RogueLeader said:

Might just be a rumor but I recall hearing Kennedy asking Johnson to do IX before Abrams. Johnson wanted to do Knives Out though.

I read that as well…

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

SW for me was always more than just simple popcorn movies. The fact that that’s what we ended up with is kinda sad (especially because you can see hints of something more in TROS, that are ultimately squandered).

Just because I call them that does not mean they aren’t important. The fact that they make me feel the way they do even to this day is testament to that.

I agree with you in regards to what could have been with TROS…I imagined a different movie if Johnson had been at the helm to finish off his vision set in TLJ.

I was chatting with my wife about the definition of a “popcorn movie” and I confess I was using the term incorrectly. I just meant that it was an exhilarating ride…not to diminish it as art or a great movie.

DominicCobb said:

SW for me was always more than just simple popcorn movies. The fact that that’s what we ended up with is kinda sad (especially because you can see hints of something more in TROS, that are ultimately squandered).

Just because I call them that does not mean they aren’t important. The fact that they make me feel the way they do even to this day is testament to that.

I agree with you in regards to what could have been with TROS…I imagined a different movie if Johnson had been at the helm to finish off his vision set in TLJ.

theprequelsrule said:

Hmm…the last 6 posts or so seem to suggest that Star Wars has become the brainless entertainment it’s critics always claimed it was.

And we fans are happy to settle for this now. Can’t wait for Michael Bay to direct the Sequel-Sequel Trilogy!

Heh

Exactly. SW for me has always been awesome popcorn movies. Get lost in the spectacle and exhilaration of it for a couple of hours. The only reason I have such strong emotions of it are due to the time I first saw ANH (12 years old) and how that grew as time went on. I’m in my 50’s now and TROS honestly had be so nostalgic for that first viewing and how I felt then that I was tearing up…powerful stuff that Abrams knows how to create for those of us like me. If I had just seen the OT recently or my first exposure was the PT I wouldn’t have felt the same I think.