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Commander Courage

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16-Aug-2004
Last activity
1-Oct-2015
Posts
724

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Post
#269016
Topic
MagnoliaFan Edits: Ep I "Balance Of The Force", and Ep II "The Clone War" (Released)
Time
Good to see you "back at it," MagnoliaFan. I don't have a MySpace, but I would reiterate the requests for a commentary on the hows and whys of BotF. If two are necessary (as you suggested), I'm sure no one would complain.

A couple of questions for you:
-These aren't the Special Editions you were talking about, are they? Because I thought you were going to wait for the CGI Yoda to do those.
-Can we expect more extensive changes to TCW? As I understand it, you edited Episode II first, so I'm curious if you had any major revisions in mind.
Post
#268353
Topic
Batman Series Edit (Released)
Time
This is probably too small for you, eh?:
http://www.digitarian.dk/images/new_movie_pictures/759.jpg

I've always liked Batman Forever, but at the same time it's frustrating to think what might have been if Burton and Keaton would have stayed. Unfortunately no amount of fan editing can change that, but it would be interesting to see how an Elfman score and reduced camp helps the movie. Did you use any of the deleted scenes in your edit?
Post
#268271
Topic
The Spectacular Spiderman (Released)
Time
This is off topic but appropriate enough a thread:

Has anyone noticed the GLARING inconsistency in Doc Ock's first and last scenes?

At first he tells Peter: "Intelligence is not a privelage, it's a gift."

Then at the end when Peter is reasoning with him:
Peter: "You once told me intelligence was a gift, to be used for the benefit of mankind."
Doc Ock: "Yes, a privelage!"

I guess no one proofread the script enough to pick up on that.
Post
#268269
Topic
Superman III: The Junkyard Cut (* unfinished project? *)
Time
I'm a lurker over at Superman Cinema; very interesting place that is. With the all the spotlight on Superman II lately, it's nice to see the "black sheep" of the franchise, III and IV, finally being given some attention. While I'm of course looking forward to all the various edits of II coming in response to the RDC, I think III and IV have a lot of untapped potential (I'm really looking forward to ADM's Superman Redeemed). Superman III has always been a guilty pleasure of mine; it gets a bad rap and sure, next to I and II it's kind of a dissapointment, but I still find it to be a very enjoyable film. Anyway, here's some general feedback to your outline:

-Are the space credits from the TV version or have you re-created them in the style of I and II somehow?
-You said all of Gus' Smallville scenes have been cut, so how does Superman get exposed to the tar Kryptonite?
-I like the concept of Evil Superman destroying the Fortress. Doesn't make sense in II, but it would here. I would recommend additional special effects added for that scene though, as the "dissapearing" effect from the RDC isn't too convincing.
-I understand cutting out Pisa and the Olympics, but seeing as how Reeve is amazing as Evil Superman, I'd think it would benefit to keep the scenes with him and Webster's girlfriend and the scene in the bar.
-A thought I had in editing Superman III would be to have Superman hear Jor-El in his head (inspired by Superman Returns), and that's what makes him finally break down and split into two. What I had in mind was "The virtuous spirit has no need for thanks for approval, only the knowledge that what has been done is right." And maybe have "is right" repeat a few times, getting louder and louder until Superman breaks down. I suppose a "My son..." to start it off would be appropriate as well. What do you think?
-I see where you were going with using the Lester green crystal scene, but I think it would seem really out of place.
-No Lana working at the Planet? I think that's an essential conclusion to the Clark/Lana story of the film. In the films I like Lana better than Lois, as she loves Clark for who he is, and I like to think that in that continuity they end up together (the ring, etc.).

Just some thoughts from a fellow Superman fan. III is definitely the more salvagable of the aformentioned "black sheep" as it is, as you said, almost a good film already. In contrast, the only things IV have going for it are Superman's speeches on nuclear disarmament and Gene Hackman back as Lex Luthor. The special effects are atrocious, Nuclear Man is ridiculous, and the entire cast looks old and tired (which in fact, they were). What a shame.
Post
#262088
Topic
STAR WARS: EP IV 2004 <strong>REVISITED</strong> ADYWAN *<em>1080p HD VERSION NOW IN PRODUCTION</em>
Time
About Vader's voice, I was very pleased when they enhanced it in the DVDs to finally match the other films. Honestly I think the '04 version is great. and much better sounding than yours. I just don't see the need to change it from the '04 version. This is pretty much the only decision in the entire project I disagree with you on, though.
Post
#261531
Topic
Text In Womble
Time
At this early stage of my editing career, I use Womble. It's simple, yes, but it's also very user friendly. However, if and when I want to use create text, I was wondering if there was a way for it not to look so...unprofessional. Those of you familar with Womble will understand what I mean. So, anyone have any advice they could give me?
Post
#261425
Topic
Idea: Superman Returns - Spoilers... for a fan edit
Time
Obviously well thought-out there, Bizzle.

My favorite 2 edits, which both ShiftyEyes and The Bizzle have suggested, are cutting Noel Neil's cameo and cutting straight from Superman's crash to the "Superman Dead" headline. I never liked the whole "Superman goes through the ER" bit. Oh, and cutting Lex on the island is an absolute must. What were they thinking? It'll be interesting to see how they rectify that in the sequel.
Post
#261423
Topic
Info: Superman II Donner, and III &amp; IV extended edits
Time
Originally posted by: strangelove
My ideas here are more oriented towards leading into a composite III/IV sequel.

That being the case, would you be in favor of "saving" the Paris stuff for the "composite sequel" as you called it? I really wasn't imagining this Ultimate Superman II tying-in to a III/IV combination, but certainly assuming that it would, the Paris stuff would definitely help it out, no?
Post
#261366
Topic
Info: Superman II Donner, and III &amp; IV extended edits
Time
Originally posted by: strangelove
Separate topic: Miss Tessmacher. Now that we have an alternate jailbreak sequence on the Donner disc, how about using it at the end of 2? Maybe after the credits?

You know I thought about that myself, but it wouldn't exactly jive with Superman Returns. Of course there some of you who could care less about tying-into SR, but that's the way I see it.

Post
#261354
Topic
Info: Superman II Donner, and III &amp; IV extended edits
Time
Well a big issue here is the deletion of the Paris opening. If that is left in, the majority of the Lester stuff I want to use would fall right into place. Although over the years as I've learned the behing-the-scenes story of II, I've grown to dislike the entire sequence for getting in the way of the "two parts of the same story" idea. Supeman freeing the villains with the missles from I always seemed like such a great idea to me, tying things together quite nicely. So I have every intention NOT to use the Paris sequence, even though that means losing arguably the best Clark/Superman transition of the series (the alley change).

Keep in mind this has nothing to do with trying to use leftover footage for an ultimate Christopher Reeve Superman III. That would be a seperate project entirely, so if there are arguments to keep Paris in Superman II, let them be heard.
Post
#261352
Topic
Idea: Superman Returns - Spoilers... for a fan edit
Time
Some ideas worth experimenting with there, ShiftyEyes.

Looking over the Deleted Scenes, although I knew Singer had already said the "Return to Krypton" sequence would not be in the film, I was dissapointed the original "Return of Superman" with the change in the storage room wasn't on there either. I was also dissapointed that the plotpoint of Luthor fabricating the scientific reports of Krypton so Superman would leave were nowhere to be found. It really is amazing not only how much of this film was cut out, but how much of what was cut out was such a large part of the film's promotional material. I swear about half the trailers come from that alternate Clark/Martha scene.

Off the top of my head, the deleted scenes I would use would be:
-Clark waking up and going to bury the spaceship.
-The alternate Clark/Martha scene, with the baseball/Daily Planet transition to Metropolis.
-The alternate Lex/Kitty scene on the yacht. With the toupee and "Greatest Criminal Mind of Our Time" reference, it really ties in to the original films.
-Luthor's extended trek to the Fortress, where Kal Pen has lines!
-Lois naming New Krypton. This will probably be important in the sequel.

And I would absolutely cut the flashbacks of young Clark.
Post
#261307
Topic
Info: Superman II Donner, and III &amp; IV extended edits
Time
Originally posted by: Guy Caballero
When it comes to Superman2 , it's ALL about the ending. People will debate everything else in the Donner/Lester/Deleted/Extended material for years to come, but whoever can come up with a satisfying ending to that movie will be a genius.

Yes...a GENIUS! Muwahaha! We'll just see about that...

Anyway, over the weekend I had some time to sit down and put together a very rough "Ultimate Superman II" in Womble. The base source is The Richard Donner Cut (RDC), with various Lester bits throughout, and a couple of deletes scenes (which I know are not up the the quality of the rest of the film, but I really think they are necessary for the story). Before I post a scene-by-scene outline, there are a few key points that are in need of discussion:

"Freshly Squeezed" Orange Juice: This is a nice friendship scene between Lois & Clark, but there's really no place for it in the RDC-inspired Ultimate Cut, at least none that I can find. Unless anyone can think of a way to fit it in, all the references to "freshly squeezed" orange juice will have to be edtied out.

Clark's Secret Revealed: This ties into three scenes, the first Niagra exterior where Superman appears, the second where Lois jumps in the river, and the third where Lois discovers he is Superman. I think the RDC cut the first scene a bit short, but I'm not sure where to cut it off without the "No orange juice?" line to end it on. The second scene is a real head scratcher as it is extremely repetitive of the Daily Planet opening. It would take some serious editing to make it fit as a possible second attempt of Lois to prove Clark is Superman. Then there is the big reveal scene. Now I like the concept of the scene in the RDC, but let's face it: its screentest nature takes out out of the film. Clark's changing physical appearence I could live with, but the changing GLASSES? No way. And on top of that, there is no logical transition from the the end of the screentest to Superman & Lois flying to the Fortress. This leaves us with the infamous "Pink Bear" scene from the Lester cut. I actually think this is a good scene that really builds the romance and has some great acting. Of course the problem with using it is it references the "jumping in the river scene." It's all very complicated. What I currently have is a fade from the deleted Lex scene (mentioned below) to Lois' line "Clark, can you hand me that brush over there?" as I have excised the jumping in the river scene completely. Needless to say this sequence of events needs a lot of work. Ideas anyone?

Deleted Scene: Lex & Miss Tessmacher Go South. I put this scene after the Villains land at the lake/discover heat vision scene (which was split for the RDC, but I have put them back together). I think it's good in that Lex reasons out the arrival of the Supervillains and that Superman set them free with his missle. It also gives Miss Tessmacher another scene before dissapearing for the remainder of the film.

Superman Loses His Powers: Ideally this scene would transition from the end of the RDC to the end of the Lester cut, which once again builds the romance ("Just say that you love me.") and had them walking off to the bed. Editing around Lois' wardrobe changes and getting the lights back from red to white will be trickly and most likely beyond my capabilities. Ideas anyone?

Clark & Lois in Bed: I think it's important for this to occur after he gives up his powers. Otherwise why would he have to give up his powers...get it? I placed this in the middle of the villains storming the White House, just before they bust into the Oval Office. I think it's an effective place for this short moment.

Superman Regains His Powers: The sequence of events in Lester's version is far superior to the RDC. Fading from the Diner to the Fortress, cutting to the White House, then cutting to the Daily Planet. That's how I've sequenced things in this cut. Also, I think the Lester scene of Clark in the darkened Fortress is better than Donner's. If there was any way to use Lester's version up until Clark putting the crystal in the console, I'd want to do it that way, but I'm not sure if that's possible. Ideas anyone?

Daily Planet Confrontation: Lex's "Australia" to the Globe at the planet is a very effective cut, but intercutting the Donner and Lester footage here to make the scene flow is tricky. Honestly I just skipped over trying to work this out, but I'm sure if I examine the footage I can come up with something. Lester's return of Superman will definitely be used, as the build-up and pay-off is far superior to Donner's. ("Would you care to step outside?")

Deleted Scene: Artic Police. This gives some resolution to what happens to Lex and the villains, other than Supeman leaving them to die in the Fortress. Omitting "the Smallville Smasher" is thankfully an easy edit.

The End: In my verison, we'd cut from Superman flying away from Lois' apartment to Lester's scene of the next day at the Planet. "Freshly squeezed" orange juice will be edited out. I've also considered editing out "What's happening in the world?" (to infer the memory loss was only of Clark=Superman, which is how I interpret it), but that doesn't look like it'll work. Inserting the deleted scene of Clark at the elevators is a possibility, but it might seem too out of place, and it really isn't necessary. From the Planet it would be the Lester version through the end: Diner/White House/Flyover.

I've added a a bit more Lester here and there and resequenced a few things, but those are the major points I need some input on. So, again I ask, ideas anyone?
Post
#261030
Topic
Idea: Fan Edit of ROTJ
Time
Originally posted by: InfoDroid
Another excellent outline, MTH. Someday.... Someday... Maybe we'll actually finish one of these things. lol

Perhaps, when the moon is in the seventh hour, and Jupiter aligns with Mars...

PS. Good stuff MTH; we've all been posting ideas for RotJ for over a year now, and it would indeed be great to see some of these put into reality one of these days.
Post
#260902
Topic
Info: Superman II Donner, and III &amp; IV extended edits
Time
I'm one of the main culprits behind the "Superman Returns" tangent. I was just trying to point out how (in my opinion) the ending onf the Donner Cut doesn't make sense on any level: not as a sequel to S:TM, not as a conclusion to SII, and not as a prequel to SR. Bizzle sees things differently based on his interpretation of the time traveling, and that's his opinion. I think all of this debate could be solved by a simple "seamless branching" option on a fan edit of II. I don't know if that can be done on a non-professional DVD, but if so that would take care of the differences of opinion on the ending without having to make multiple fan cuts. Option 1 would be the ending as per the Donner Cut, Option 2 would be as per the Lester Cut, and Option 3 would have Lois keep the secret and go like this: Balcony/Diner/White House/Flyover. I'm no expert in DVD authoring, but hopefully that can be accomplished.
Post
#260513
Topic
Info: Superman II Donner, and III &amp; IV extended edits
Time
I've been re-watching the RIC, and I have to say I respect Lester's contributions a little more now. I prefer the Honeymoon Suite reveal to Lois-with-a-gun; and say what you will about the Amnesia Kiss, Kidder and Reeve's acting is superb there.
I feel exactly the same way. The acting and content in both those scene really carries the romance in a way the Donner scenes just don't do.

What I'm coming around to is that there's probably no way to reconstruct the 'original vision' since that would be the 600-page script that was never completely shot. Scholars, weigh in here: if the time-reversal gag was the original ending, would Lois still have died at half-time? At the end? At all? It's fairly unworkable.
You're absolutely right. There were so many alterations to that original script and then so much that was not shot, it's impossible to recreate it with the materials available. And to answer your question, Lois was originally to have died at the end of Superman II, at the hands of the villains. This was to enrage Superman enough for him to reverse time, saving Lois and putting the villains back into the Phantom Zone. In this context everything would have fell into place quite nicely.

If you're talking about making the best Superman II without any sort of connection to returns, then simply cut out all the world spinning nonsense AND the super-kiss and have Clark trusting Lois on that Balcony to stay quiet about the secret and then have him fly straight to the North Pole. That's the simplest, and probably best choice if all you're concerned with is making Superman II itself the best Superman II it can be, everything else be damned.

I agree, and I'm sure out of the inevitably high number of fan edits that will come from Superman II, one version will end in this way. For those of us who want to acknowledge Superman Returns in continuity, there will be other versions.

Personally, though ,I would have preferred that Singer have adapted "Secret Identity" if he wanted to keep Superman grounded and attack many of the same themes he attacked in the movie. That graphic novel is one of the purest, most inspirational and heartfelt studies on Superman I've read.

Yes, that's a great graphic novel! A very mature and insightful exploration on what it means to be Superman, and of course a great "What If?" scenario.
Post
#260307
Topic
Info: Superman II Donner, and III &amp; IV extended edits
Time
There's other options no one seems to be considering.
I really don't see how any of these other options would improve the films and resolve plot holes. Let me explain.

If you want to make Superman, Superman II and Superman Returns, you could always re-edit Superman so that the movie ends how they originally planned it--he catches the nuke, throws it into space, and ta-da. Then Superman II can end with the world turning back, and Superman Returns can continue.
This negatively affects S:TM in that it removes its climax. Without the emotional climax of Lois' death and Superman's actions to reverse it, the film would fall flat. Superman just stopping the missles is not a satisfying conclusion. The original creative team understood this, which is why they decided to steal SII's planned ending. Sure S:TM can be edited so instead of Lois dying, Superman just lands by her trying to start her car, but it would be a very dull way to end the film. The suggestion of leaving the timer reversal in SII brings me to your next point...

OR: You can just leave the world turning back in Superman II. Superman Returns still follows perfectly, check this out: Just because time has turned back doesn't mean Lois is no longer pregnant. In the silly version of "turning back time" that happens in this film universe--everything goes backwards, but Superman. Otherwise, when he was done, there'd be an additional Superman there on earth. So since Super-sperm can't jump out of Lois and back into Superman--the kid is STILL IN THERE after he reverses time all the way back to the end of Superman I. He leaves, she gets pissy, hooks up with Richard, and the kid that was already inside her, she just ASSUMES it's his.

Superman reversing time at the end of SII would negate all the actions of the film. True, the "science" of the time travel in these films is flawed, but we just have to accept that when Superman reverses time, it resets events to whatever point he travels back to. This is the ONLY "advantage" to Superman reversing time at the end of SII is erasing Lois' knowledge of the secret. However, replacing this with the SuperKiss takes care of this plot point, and avoids creating the following issues:

-Lois and Clark's conception of Jason: It doesn't matter if Superman's sperm was still in Lois before he reversed time. The time reversal negated that, just as the time reversal in S:TM negated Lois being dead. There was no other opportunity for Jason's conception to happen, regardless of Singer's apparent suggestion of it happening he night of Lois' first interview with Superman.

-Luthor's knowledge of the Fortress: In SR he knows where the FoS is, and how to use its controls. Without his actions in SII, there is no precedent for this.

-The three villains: How does this affect their release? The rocket Superman threw into space in S:TM is still out there and will still release the villains. Does Superman just think he'll be more prepared this time? Ironically this is only a problem in Donner's II, as in Lester's II it was the Paris bomb that released Zod and co.

-The diner bully: This is the real kicker; regardless of whether you want to acknowledge SR or not, this is a glaring plot hole that exists in the Donner Cut of SII. When Clark shows up at the diner again to teach the bully a lesson, everyone recognizes him and he explains that he's been "working out." With the time reversal, no one should know who he is, his explanation would make no sense, and of course this would be a totally unprovoked attack on Clark's part.

OR: You can just leave Lois on the balcony, and Superman trusts her. And then he leaves, she feels betrayed, and finds a man rather quickly, and convinces herself that he's the father, not Superman. That makes interpreting Lois' actions part of the scheme, though, because then her "act" that she doesn't remember Clark is an act, indeed, for the public. That might be too much of a stretch though.

This would have been an ideal way to play things if Singer had presented us with a relationship where Lois knew Clark's secret. But unfortunately he didn't; if she did that would definitely have been something the characters addressed.

But I don't understand why you NEED the magic kiss if you're going to try and link Superman II to Superman Returns. Since Donner has moved Lois and Clark's sex scene to before he depowers, and then runs the world backwards, reversing everything BUT the fact he has his stuff in her, due to the rules of time travel in the film, she's still pregnant and doesn't know he's Superman. That sets up Superman Returns pretty perfectly. AND, Donner even hints in his cut that Lois MIGHT get an inkling, later. Which she does--and it all might come flooding back to her in the sequence where she leans over and whispers to him what's up. She remembers it all, finally, even if it didn't happen anymore after he turned the world back.

We just disagree on the nature of the time reversal. All of that aside, Superman reversing time twice is just a ridiculous idea. The only reason it works for the audience in S:TM is the emotional investment. And it was only for a matter of minutes, not DAYS as it would be in SII. Don't get me wrong, I'm thankful to have finally gotten the Donner Cut, but it's just frustrating to think of what a better product we could have had if the creative forced behind it had sat down for a few minutes and thought things through. Now it's up to us fan editors to make sense of everything.
Post
#260268
Topic
Info: Superman II Donner, and III &amp; IV extended edits
Time
It looks like there might need to be two versions of the Ultimate Superman II, one that stands alone and one that ties into Superman Returns. That shouldn't be a problem though with SII being such a ripe ground for fan edits. I don't see the time reversal as being an opiton in either version though. Unless someone can concoct a better solution based on the materials we have to work with, this is the way I see endings:
-If you don't want to consider SR, and want the best stand alone story for S:TM and SII, Lois keeps the secrect, with the last Lois and Clark scene being on the balcony.
-If you DO want to consider SR, the SuperKiss erases her memory of Clark=Superman. One alteration to this would be the deletion of Lois' line "What's happening in the world?" as to suggest she only forgets Clark's secret, not the entirety of the last few days. Surely Perry would ask her to write a story on the events, and she'd definitely think something was up if she couldn't remember any of it. (That's my interpretation, anyway.)

And I don't think Lara should be incorporated. Yes it was a nice idea for Superman to be able to talk to both of his parents, but that's just not the way it was supposed to be. Jor-El already has a larger role here than he ever did in any other incarnation of Superman, and to include Lara on top of that would take away the impact of Superman truly being the last of of his kind, isolated, and alone. Add to that the SII Lara in her crystalline box and distorted voice doesn't mesh well with the rest of the Fortress.
Post
#260104
Topic
Info: Superman II Donner, and III &amp; IV extended edits
Time
Well, leaving the kiss allows the story to actually tie with SUPERMAN RETURNS better... Why refuse the fact that SR follows it (although loosely)? Lets make an effort to aknowledge it. Because no matter what, officially, Supes made Lois forget by that kiss. So no edit with change that fact. Better as well aknowledge it, and move from there. Making a hybrid is a priority.
I'm all for tying S:TM, SII, and SR all together. The SuperKiss is the definite way to go in that scenario, there's really no way around it, and it doesn't destroy continuity as the other possible endings would.

In my previous post I was just pointing out if they were so biased against Lester not to use the SuperKiss, they didn't have to resort to reversing time (AGAIN), they could have just allowed Lois to retain her knowledge. At least that scenario doesn't create plotholes in both S:TM (how often does Superman use this time reversal trick?) and SII (getting "even" with the bully, even though that never happened). If they were really trying to complete Donner's vision of a two-part epic, based on the materials available to them, the balcony scene should have been the final Clark/Lois scene.

Although, I got to ask... If a Superman II re-edit happens, should it follow Donner Cut's structure/timeline, with Lester bits here and there (my choice), or be it the theatrical-Lester cut with Donner scenes here and there (NOT my choice)?

Definitely the former.

Should any of the mother footage be left in? It was nice to see all the Brando footage, but I also felt the mother lent a nice touch in places as well in the Lester version.

No for a few reasons.
1) It's inconsistent with S:TM in which Superman talks to Jor-El.
2) Lara did not record her intellect and personality onto the crystals, only Jor-El did.
3) There would be no conclusion to the mother & son relationship as there is with father & son.
Post
#260067
Topic
How I Would Edit SUPERMAN {Part 1} (workprint completed)
Time
Originally posted by: booah
Superman flicks, as good as they are as-is, seem to be rather untapped for edits, so it's exciting to see some in the works.

I think before the release of the Donner Cut and the Ultimate Edition DVD Set (with lots of deleted scenes), there just hadn't been much to work with. That and Superman Returns probably reignited a lot of people's interest in the franchise.
Post
#260066
Topic
Info: Superman II Donner, and III &amp; IV extended edits
Time
Or, ditch the kiss thing altogether. Lois doesn't really *need* to forget. It's only a movie...

Right. If they (the creatives forces behind the Donner Cut) were going for the best possible story, letting Lois retain the secret would have been the way to go. It's not like they'd have to follow up on it in a sequel. Instead, they were so biased against Lester and so adament on "following the original script" that they just cut-and-paste the ending of S:TM and negated the events of the entire film. That's just bad storytelling.