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Chewtobacca

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Join date
25-Jul-2009
Last activity
19-May-2021
Posts
2,093

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Post
#1252486
Topic
The GOUT Sync Thread
Time

CatBus said:
Multiple derivatives of the same source video with different processing options isn’t really the same thing IMO.

It’s not quite the same, I agree, but multiple frame-complete releases (derivative of one source or not) into which people will want to mux a given audio or subtitle track will lead to the same requirement for synced versions of those tracks. And once frame-complete 4k versions of the OT are out, how many other projects will go to the trouble of dropping frames to maintain GOUT sync if they no longer need to (audio from those 4k versions being readily available)?

There’s also the fact that hairy_hen and schorman have moved in step with 4k83 and will presumably continue to do so. Their latest mixes (which, as I understand it, involve improvements) are synced to that. Will they make GOUT-synced versions for legacy reasons?

Post
#1251947
Topic
The GOUT Sync Thread
Time

CatBus said:
However, the assumption that the GOUT audio was also synced to that frame reference seems natural.

It’s certainly natural, but it’s not something that necessarily follows. It depends on how one syncs audio.

While I’m glad that hairy_hen and schorman are on board with the new standard, because it will make adopting it far easier, I can’t help wondering what will happen with all the foreign dubs. Is someone going to resync them systematically?

Post
#1251892
Topic
<strong>4K83</strong> - Released
Time

Handman said:
Yeah, blacks look a bit crushed to me.

In many shots, the whites are blown out after ColorYUV(levels=“TV->PC”), too, so it’s definitely not a straightforward levels problem. I’d say that the luma range has possibly been compressed a little while the video was (already) in the TV range, which has the usual effect of making it look a bit too bright and somewhat undersaturated.

Post
#1251889
Topic
The GOUT Sync Thread
Time

Fascinating! It’s long been my suspicion that people who prepare home-video releases often make the same sort of rough edits that fans do. It’s nice to have some corroboration of that.

hairy_hen said:
To be clear, the 1993 laserdisc source does not have this kludgy edit; only the GOUT itself has it.

That hints at an important distinction. The GOUT was always a reference for which frames to include. I don’t recall the AC-3 tracks being used very much (if at all) as a sync reference. In other words, the damage that the GOUT’s poor audio had on past audio work was probably minimal (and less than one might first imagine). But you’re undoubtedly right that your findings are good reason to establish a new standard.

The main thing to start with is exactly what frame the main title music should begin on, and I have not figured this out yet. The precise timing of everything else can be established once this is known.

Send me a PM when you are ready, and we can work some things out. I’d like to keep this thread for the old standard and start another for the new – that should minimize confusion.

Post
#1227211
Topic
The GOUT Sync Thread
Time

^ Yes, I remember all of that. I was there too. The fact that most people might not notice a loss of sync is neither here nor there – as a community, we’ve always tried to ensure quality control and get things right that nobody else would notice (or care about). We’re not Lucasfilm.

And one can just as easily say that hardly anybody will notice that a frame or two has been dropped from a film scan to ensure NTSC GOUT-sync. It won’t be noticeable in motion, so why not maintain a standard that’s worked successfully for so long?

Post
#1227155
Topic
The GOUT Sync Thread
Time

CatBus said:
Not entirely true. There was a time when some dubs and subs were PAL-synced for ROTJ, but that time was short-lived and the transition was painful.

In that case, what I (obviously) meant was that they were never routinely synced to the PAL GOUT – the overall point remains unchanged. The PAL GOUT was never used as a standard in the way that the NTSC GOUT is/was. A painful transition sounds as if it is something that ought not to be repeated.

schorman13 said:

It’s not necessarily true that lossy audio tracks could not be conformed to a new standard that includes more frames, especially when those frames occur at reel transitions. One could simply split the ac3 track at the appropriate position and insert a silent ac3 frame before rejoining. Now, this would not be a perfect solution, as Dolby digital uses an audio frame rate of 31.25 fps, while the film runs at 23.976 FPS.

The result for a single missing frame is that the audio is off by roughly 0.232 frames, rather than a whole frame. This would arguably be a “good enough” compromise for many of the tracks. This would work especially well in the case of Star Wars as that bit of silent audio would not be noticeable for the affected reel transition. However, it is admittedly more problematic for the two missing frames in ROTJ, as those do not occur at a reel transition.

That’s all true, but the potential for confusion is considerable. At present, people can swap audio and subtitles from release to release without worrying about sync issues – for a fan community dispersed around the globe, that’s a major achievement in terms of standardization. Even commercial discs occasionally have sync issues.

Imagine the problems that might be caused if we adopt a new standard. Is someone going to go through and re-sync every foreign language dub? You’re competent to make this sort of adjustment, but not everyone is. Inevitably, someone will mess up. And there will be endless questions about whether or not the adjustment has been made for a given track or whether a certain project follows the old standard or the new. All this for a frame or two? It’s not worth it.

Post
#1227111
Topic
The GOUT Sync Thread
Time

Syncing to the NTSC GOUT ought to remain the standard because the many audio and subtitles tracks that have been synced over the years adhere to it – re-syncing them all is neither feasible nor necessary. It doesn’t matter at all that the GOUT is a 4:3 LB DVD based on an old LD transfer, because frame-counts differ from release to release even on modern transfers – all that’s needed is an agreed-upon set of frames to which to sync, and that’s what GOUT sync has achieved.

And the audio and subtitle tracks have never been synced to the PAL GOUT, even for RotJ. Projects that used the PAL GOUT as a video source were usually careful to conform to the NTSC version – those that didn’t tended to come about through oversights, rather than through conscious decisions to depart from the standard.

Post
#1226249
Topic
The GOUT Sync Thread
Time

^ Not that I’m aware of! I had toyed with the idea of making such scripts but never got round to it. After scan-based releases emerged, I lost most of my interest in projects based on the SE.

There was one project years ago that wove back and forth between the 2004 (I think) SE and the GOUT, but I can’t remember what it was called or if a script was ever released. Maybe someone will remember it.

Post
#1214669
Topic
4k77 - shot by shot color grading (a WIP)
Time

Williarob said:
I’m guessing that the slight pink push that appears on Reel 1 (but is not part of Dre’s LUT) is the result of the PC -> TV levels or sRGB -> rec 709 colorspace conversion, as I didn’t deliberately alter his colors at all.

It might be the latter – I’ll try to investigate that. I don’t think it’s the former. As usual, I checked the levels. Blacks seem to be where they should be, and the whites come close to the edge of the TV range but never go beyond it (or look clipped).

Levels

Is the pink push only on Reel 1, Williarob?