logo Sign In

CO

User Group
Members
Join date
25-Jul-2005
Last activity
22-Apr-2019
Posts
1,568

Post History

Post
#176554
Topic
who misses the prequels?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/176554/action/topic#176554
Time
I think Lucas could have made the PT more serious without the Jar Jar & humor side show schtick, and that would have probably worked better for me. I mean all the key players in this trilogy are Jedi, Senators, Queens, and Chancellors, none are 'normal' people like Han Solo.

I know many clamor for a Han Solo character in this trilogy, but if Lucas would have kept the same tempo of seriousness through this trilogy, I think it would have succeeded. Unfortunately there is no room for humor because this trilogy is a tragedy, the republic falls and the main character goes to the darkside, what is funny about that?

Everytime Lucas attempted humor in the PT, IMO, it failed miserably. TPM had Jar Jar which ruins the movie, AOTC had C-3PO cracking one liners during the most important battle of the trilogy, and in ROTS, Lucas tried to have witty banter between ObiWan and Anakin during the rescue of Palpatine, and it just wasn't funny. Everytime they attempted humor it came out forced, and just stuck out. In the OT, Han Solo, Luke, Leia, were acting out their personalities, so when they were funny, they were just being themselves, that is why the humor in the OT is fine with people cause it doesn't override the situation.

I hate the fact that TPM is a kiddy movie, AOTC, is more of a teenage movie love story movie, and then ROTS is finally serious with a PG-13 more adult movie. It makes the trilogy feel so uneven. Now everything doesn't have to be dark like ROTS, the original SW is light-hearted movie which is far from dark, but it is not a kiddy movie, it is very adult and very funny, ROTJ is when Lucas started to go kiddy.

My biggest problem with the PT is Lucas tried to grab every age market out there and when you do that, the movies don't hold up as well years later. Is it a coincidence that for many on this forum, Star Wars & ESB are their favorites 20 years later? While ROTJ is constantly put as #3 because of the Ewoks and lack of creativity? TPM may have been loved by 5-10 year olds at the time, but 10-20 years from now, those same kids are going to look back at TPM & AOTC alot like the OT generation looks at ROTJ, it just doesn't hold up as well years down the road. They will notice all the juvenile attempts at stupid humor that detract from the movie.

I would have loved to have 6 movies in my collection for SW, for I-III being the more political & serious trilogy, while IV-VI is the funnier & adveturous trilogy. Instead I look at I-III as the political & kiddie trilogy, that is where it failed.
Post
#176343
Topic
who misses the prequels?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/176343/action/topic#176343
Time
Originally posted by: Adamwankenobi

That's one of the reasons I defend the PT. When he was asked in the early 90's why on earth he was starting the PT with Anakoin as a nine year old, he replied that he was telling the story that he intended to tell. Not the fans' story, or Spielberg's story, or anyone's story but his. From what I can tell, he did what he thought was best for the story. Now, he has said himself that you cannot please everyone because Star Wars fans, and sci-fi fans in general are "very independent minded people who have a very clear idea of what they want to see."

Text

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now I don't have a problem with Lucas doing whatever story he wanted, cause as I have said before, alot fans didn't have the PT story in their head as much as people think. Most fans who grew up with the OT thought of the duel between Kenobi & Anakin, how Anakin turned, how good Anakin was at being a pilot, and the Clone Wars. Only what was stated in the OT was what people wondered about.

And the thing that gets fans mad at the PT is Lucas didn't expand on alot of those issues that people wondered about in the OT. He could have really developed the relationship between ObiWan/Anakin/Uncle Owen and why Owen feels the way he does toward both Jedis in ANH, but we get nothing, nothing that even relates to the OT, other than that they are stepbrothers, and by that you feel Lucas is just connecting the dots cause he has to.

The birth of the rebellion, Anakin/ObiWans friendship, Palp/Anakin manipulation for more than just 1/2 of ROTS, those were great parts that Lucas just left out cause he wasted so much meaningless time in TPM. There should have been two solid movies of Palps playing Anakin like he did in ROTS, and really understand the conflict within Anakin on why he turned, other than this 5 second switch that totally comes off as contrived and ridiculous.

Whatever Lucas says his story was and is sticking by it, in some ways he wants it both ways. He didn't have the whole story for the PT even written beforehand. He would finish each script right up to the shoot of the movie, he changed the whole turn scene from one part of the movie to the other after he didn't think the first one didn't work. He did this 20%/20%/60% split of plot points for the PT which I will never understand, cause he ran out of time for ROTS leaving out key scenes.

I think what frustrates people is not that Lucas didn't fulfill our story, but he didn't make great movies. I will give you an example of two movies that I had the story already in my mind and one sucked, and one was very good.

Titanic which came out in 1997, I knew the ending, I knew everything that led up to the sinking, but Cameron made a compelling side story about two lovers getting caught up in this tragedy, and overall the movie really worked for me.

Pearl Harbor released in 2001 was piece of crap. I knew everything about Pearl Harbor going in, what happened, why the Japanese bombed us, but Michael Bay was so obsessed with effects, he forgot to write a good story, and the characters were lame, and I just didn't care about them. The only cool part was the bombing which was all CGI, but that does not make a great movie, the characters and the story do.

Same with the PT, if Lucas made me care about Anakin & Padme, and made the story great, even though he may have not fulfilled everything I wanted in the PT, I would have been satisfied if they were still great movies, in the end they weren't, that is why they get criticized. Text
Post
#175676
Topic
ROTS and the Oscars!
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/175676/action/topic#175676
Time
Originally posted by: greencapt

The color choices I feel are a lot of what's to blame for the cartoonish feel/look. Colors that are too strong or too unnatural looking colors set off cues in our brains that the images 'aren't real'.


Text


I kinda agree with you on that statement, I think Lucas uses too much brightness in his colors in ROTS, and it just comes as fake that way. I notice the color red is very fake looking, cause it kinda sticks out in scenes like Palps office. The one CG I do like from the PT is the whole outside part of the Kamino world. It is just very cool looking with the rain, and I know that couldn't have been done 20 years ago.

I think the most cartoonish part is one shot at the beginning during the space battle in ROTS where the clonetrooper are shooting this huge gun out at the spaceships, and it just looks so damn fake. I remember they showed it in one of the ROTS trailers too, and nothing in that sequence feels real. Then I watch the original SW when the attack on the death star and you see the stormtroopers shooting those big guns at the rebels, and cause it is done on a set it just looks so much more believable.
Post
#175667
Topic
ROTS and the Oscars!
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/175667/action/topic#175667
Time
Originally posted by: greencapt
I agree entirely about the cartoony look of the CGI, but is it REALLY cheaper to use? If you haven't already, watch the 'scene in a minute' docu about part of the Mustaphar duel on the ROTS DVD. Text


I wasn't positive it costs less to use CGI on the SW movies, I just assumed since it was coming out of Lucas's pocket, I guess he would use the most cost-effective way, but your guess is as good as mine. Let me ask you, does it take less time to use CG rather than using stop motion models?

It is sad cause as much as CG looks really good sometimes, my biggest beef is it just looks cartoonish alot of times, and I think 10-20 years from now, those effects won't hold up as well as the OT models & sets do.
Post
#175643
Topic
ROTS and the Oscars!
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/175643/action/topic#175643
Time
Originally posted by: InfoDroid
Like Palpatine and Bail Organa on the balcony at the end of AOTC, did you know the two actors were the only real thing in the shot? Everything (and everyone) else were seperate elements that were composited in. Or the foyer to the opera in ROTS, none of it was there. It's those things that you don't think about that are so well done, it's just amazing to think it started out as a shot of Hayden Christensen climbing up a blue staircase. And I really thought Yoda was leaps and bounds more realistic in ROTS than he was in AOTC. It's a shame, considering this one was the best the Prequels had to offer.



Text

I do agree that there are some amazing shots that they can do with CG that could have never been done in the OT, but in some ways because of the CG it just doesn't look as real as sets or models. The grand shots of Coruscant of Naboo benefit from CG and make the PT look beautiful sometimes, but I think when you get to the small images, sets work so much better and just look more real.

I was watching SW & ESB the other weekend and then comparing them to the PT movies, at times the PT looks so cartoonish, even though they do a great job of making look almost real, it still doesn't beat using sets. For the space battles between ROTS and ROTJ, I just think the ROTS space battle looks too cartoonish at times too, models are just more believable.

Now monetarily, I know it is cheaper to use CG, and it would be too expensive to shoot the PT with models and sets, but in saving money they sacrificed in the long term the quality of the shot looking more realistic. The OT really holds its worth by just looking more realistic than the PT, just my opinion.
Post
#175276
Topic
who misses the prequels?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/175276/action/topic#175276
Time
Originally posted by: Kaal-Jhyy
Originally posted by: CO
-The force ghost issue, anything specific?


It seems that you haven't understood what Yoda says to Obi-Wan at the end of ROTS. Re-watch it and you will.


Text

He says one line about QuiGon teaching him it, but nothing more than that. That is the whole failure of the PT, is this could have been such a great plot point that could have gone into great detail, and we get one line of Yoda talking to ObiWan, just to connect the dots to make Episode III go into IV.


Now many will say, why does everything need to be explained? I counter, because that is what the PT is for! You have three movies to answer many of the questions that were just touched upon in Episode IV, V, VI. You shouldn't have a million new questions walking out of Episode III that make things contradict with the OT.

If that is answer of the force ghost is enough for, that cool with me. But I think Lucas ran out of time, and that is why the birth of the rebellion are in the deleted scenes, cause he wasted TPM on Jar Jar and many useless issues which don't effect the trilogy, and was rushed to really start the trilogy in AOTC, and everything was crammed in two movies instead of three.
Post
#175235
Topic
who misses the prequels?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/175235/action/topic#175235
Time
Originally posted by: Adamwankenobi
Well, that's the problem. All original fans had 16 years to come up with their own ideas for what had to happen. And when it didn't, well...


Text

That is where i disagree, and I am a fan who has been there since '77. I never had any story of the PT in my mind for years after ROTJ, it was always episodes 7,8,9 that I had in my mind. Since ROTJ, every summer I would hope to hear news about The Sequel Trilogy, and the further adventures of Luke, Han, and Leia. I envisoned Luke as the Yoda of that trilogy rebuilding the jedi-council, Han & Leia getting married, and both Lukes kids and Leia/Hans kids being the stars of that trilogy, and possibly one of them turning to the darkside.

For the PT, the only thing I thought about was the duel on the Volcano between Anakin & Kenobi, and that is it. Going into TPM, I had no idea where Lucas was going to take us with 1,2,3 and I was really open to what was going to happen. Then after TPM, and then AOTC, and then finally ROTS, I started seeing all the things that Lucas missed, and then I started to get frustrated:

-Obiwan/Anakin/Uncle Owen relationship, where is it? Why does Owen hate Kenobi?
-The force ghost issue, anything specific?
-The birth of the rebellion, deleted scenes?
-This cleverly laid out plan to hide the twins is done in a two minute montage?
-The clone wars, watch the cartoons?
-The fate of Padme, why doesn't Luke remember her?
-The first prequel, Anakin & Obiwan are secondary characters?
-The stupid tie-ins to the OT, Jango Fett, Anakin building C-3PO, Death Star built in 20 years, Owen doesn't remember C-3po, a droid he owned for 10 years?

As I said, I started evaluating the PT after I realized Lucas missed out on so many great plot points, and instead of developing the ObiWan/Anakin/Uncle Owen relationship which would have really tied in to the conversation in ANH, we get nothing in detail, just Lucas putting it in cause he has to find a way for Uncle Owen to meet Anakin. That is the biggest failure of the PT, is great plot points like this and the birth of the rebellion, really good subjects that would have enriched the OT were pushed aside for a Jango Fett/Boba Fett father-son side plot, and other bad tie-ins that were just thrown in there as a time filler.


-
Post
#174994
Topic
9 Years Ago Today....
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/174994/action/topic#174994
Time
I did see it opening night in '97, and remember seeing ESB too when Luke & Leia kissed, the whole crowd screamed 'ewwwwwwwwww!' Even though I didn't like the changes at the time, it was cool to see the original in the theater again with a new generation of fans, and being amazed that SW was still popular 20 years later. I really thought when Lucas was re-releasing the SE of the OT that nobody would really care, and that SW was an afterthought, and maybe, I was just alittle too old to still love those movies. I loved it in the theater that night, went back again that Saturday night, and showed me my love for these movies will never get old.

It is just weird to think how my views of George Lucas have changed in 9 years. Now I am not one to hate the guy, but I definitely don't think he is this great director or genius that I thought he was when the OT was ruling the world. I always thought Lucas was untouchable to criticism before the SE and the PT. He was god to me, and I would shrug off any people who would say SW was overrated, I would defend George to the tilt. Now after watching 3 PT movies, I realized he can't write a lick when it comes to dialogue, he is an overrated director, and he has definitely lost his edge in what is 'cool' for the public with such bad attempts with Jar Jar, the droid voices, and the uncool aliens. The one thing I will always give Lucas is he is a great storyteller, and if he just wrote his vision for his movies, and let someone write the screenplay and direct it, the PT would have been so much better.
Post
#174921
Topic
who misses the prequels?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/174921/action/topic#174921
Time
I'll be honest Adam, and this isn't a shot at you personaly, I just don't think the TV series is ever going to happen. I think it is one of those things that will just keep getting delayed for various reasons, and never materialize. I don't have any inside information, it is just a hunch that the series won't happen. The only thing that ever makes me believe it will happen is Lucas still sees dollar signs with the Star Wars name, so never say never, but who knows.
Post
#174890
Topic
who misses the prequels?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/174890/action/topic#174890
Time
I think the thread should be called 'Who misses the hype of the prequels' , cause that was actually pretty fun. The anticipation for the name of each movie, the first trailer, and the expectations that Lucas was finally gonna get it right, plus seeing it opening weekend was always fun whether the movie lived up to the hype.

8 months after ROTS, I really don't miss the PT, cause I have finally gotten past my what if......stage of how I wish the prequels should have been done, and how much better they could have been. I am done second guessing Lucas's vision, and have taken the PT for what they are, semi-entertaining popcorn summer movies that if I watch just for enjoyment, they aren't half bad. If I try to either compare them to the OT, or try to watch them as a six story saga, I start to notice how inferior they all are to the OT movies, and how I just don't give a damn about the PT characters compared to the OT characters.

I don't get mad anymore at why some parts of the movies are bad, and now sadly I just wish Lucas never did them, cause to me that is the biggest reason we don't have the O-OT on DVD. He has to link them all together to sell them as a package, and that is why we are always going to have to put up with Hayden in ROTJ.
Post
#174132
Topic
New Gary Kurtz interview!
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/174132/action/topic#174132
Time
I don't think we'll ever really know why Lucas condensed the sequel trilogy to ROTJ, and I think it there are more reasons than just the split between Lucas & Kurtz.

As I said in my post above, I think Kurtz gets way too much credit sometimes. As for McCallum, on whether he is a good producer, from a financial point of view in the PT, he is a big success. But SW goes further than that if you look at each movie.

The original SW was almost a disaster, and if I were on the set in 1976, I probably would have thought this movie was a bomb waiting to happen. I give Lucas major credit for the success of the original, and I think he deserves everything he earned for the original, cause that was his vision, his directing, his writing.

ESB was definitely more collaborative and that is its greatest strength. I feel if Lucas wrote and directed ESB it would have not been as good as Kershners ESB. Now that isn't a slight at Lucas, but Kershner put a different touch on the movie, it feels like a totally different movie than the other 5 SW movies. Now I still love the original more than ESB, but ESB is still a classic, and I also feel the other 4 SW films have not even come close to the first two in quality.

What I am getting at is ESB is the only movie where Lucas kind of let someone else take his SW vision and make it their way. Mostly cause Lucas was starting this huge business, and really didn't know if people were going to turn out like the original SW. But to everyones suprise, alot of people liked it more than the original, except the kiddies like myself. At 8 years old, I did not love ESB like the original, but in 1983, I loved ROTJ! 20 years later, I still love the original and now love ESB, and think ROTJ is good enough to end the trilogy.

After ESB was a success, Lucas knew he had a fanbase that was loyal, and that is when he stopped taking chances. I give the Jerry Maguire analogy whenever I go to a SW movie whether it is a good movie or a piece of crap like TPM, "George, you had me at the opening crawl!"

After ESB & Raiders of the Lost Ark, I think Lucas, who probably had this grand vision of this huge movie saga of SW, didn't feel like doing it for the rest of his life. ROTJ was a basic sequel, no chances, recycled death star, the heroes all win in the end, and everyone lives happily after.

I believe Kurtz when he says Lucas condensed everything from 7,8,9 to ROTJ, but that also tells me all they had were rough notes. To me I think they ran out of story with ROTJ, cause the only new interesting plot point was the Vader/Emperor/Luke conflict in the last 30 minutes, everything else in the movie is either recycled or going through the motions to end the series.

Should Kurtz get all the credit for ANH & ESB, or even more than Lucas? No, I don't think so, cause every movie is Lucas's vision, and his story in the end. But what makes ESB one of the few sequels in the history of movies that is as good or better than the original, is there were other people leading the charge on it, while Lucas was in the backround, and that is why it feels different.

Personally, I don't think Lucas liked the way ESB turned out, it didn't have that B-movie 30's style feel to it, in which ROTJ, TPM, AOTC, and ROTS definitely do. The original SW had that, but it was able to conjure up movie magic and such a basic story and great characters & pure emotion at the end, that it is a classic despite it trying to be a B-level movie.

The PT has made me realize that ESB was the pinnacle, and sadly, I don't think we were going to see any great movies after that. SW fans like myself, since 1980, have been waiting for the next ESB type movie in the SW series, and unfortunately, it just wasn't going to happen. Lucas hit lightning in a bottle twice with SW & ESB, we should be grateful for that, but after that we had 4 mediocre movies that sold because of the name SW. I don't think we can blame anyone including Kurtz, I just think Lucas never really wanted to make these movies as great as we expected.
Post
#173905
Topic
Empire Mag's Greatest Films of All-Time (2 SW films in Top 10, guess which two?)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/173905/action/topic#173905
Time
I agree with everyone here that some of the top ten movies here are not a good representation of the greatest movies of all-time, but I think it is good to read after the PT and all the revisionism of the SW saga being now a 6 movie story and it is story of Anakin that the same 2 movies that were considered classics before the PT are still considered classics after the PT. Whatever the top 10 greatest movies are, I really don't care, as long fans who are not diehard SW nuts, still look at Star Wars & ESB as classics. I know we are all not crazy here for our views of the SW movies, but in other forums when people say TPM is a great movie, and ROTS is the better than ESB, you know they are out of the mainstream of movie goers.

By the way, I agree with Mr. Bungle as much as I love ESB, I still think the original Star Wars should rank alittle bit higher: 1. Star Wars 2. The Empire Strikes Back, that is how my list always starts.
Post
#173859
Topic
Empire Mag's Greatest Films of All-Time (2 SW films in Top 10, guess which two?)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/173859/action/topic#173859
Time
I found this on theforce.net on the greatest films of all time by Empire Magazine voted by its fans. Now I don't agree with all the films in the top 10, cause that is always up for debate, but is it a coincidence that many of us here feel that the two best Star Wars films are the original & ESB, and they are both in the top 5, and none of the other 4 SW movies are even close.

Empire Magazine's Greatest Films Of All Time

Posted By Dustin on January 28, 2006
Fan of TheForce.net Stehpen hall writes in:

In the latest of Empire Magazine's periodic polls of the greatest films of all time, Star Wars found itself dislodged from the no. 1 spot by The Shawshank Redemption, but The Empire Strikes Back came in at no. 2 with Star Wars at no. 4.

The full top 10 consists of:

1. The Shawshank Redemption
2. The Empire Strikes Back
3. The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring
4. Star Wars
5. The Godfather
6. Pulp Fiction
7. The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King
8. Fight Club
9. GoodFellas
10. The Matrix

Other notable entries were Raiders of the Lost Ark at 15, Revenge of the Sith at 40, and Return of the Jedi at 48.

Post
#173373
Topic
New Gary Kurtz interview!
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/173373/action/topic#173373
Time
Originally posted by: zombie84

So was he a good producer? Abosolutely not. Although he obviously cared about the content more than, say, McCallum, he was negligent and incompetant in his role, and despite the fact that he lached on to Lucas when Lucas was still young and creative, Kurtz' status as "Savior of the OT" is a complete fabrication by the meer coincidence that ANH and ESB are better than ROTJ. McCallum is a million times the producer Kurtz was, though unfortunately associated with poor material, the opposite of Kurtz--but the fact is that the man did his job. There were no scheduling or budgetary issues on any of the PT, even when the script for AOTC was completed until the week before filming. Despite the fact that Lucas may have lost his touch, if i were making a film i would definitly want McCallum and not Kurtz with me!


Text

No doubt ESB went over budget and Kurtz is responsible for that, but so did Titanic. Now James Cameron was in total control of the movie and staked his career on it, but does anyone remember that Titanic had a budget of 200 million in 1997, which was truly outrageous at the time. But the film was a hit, and made a boatload of money, so no harm no foul.

I do remember reading in the mid 90's that Lucas thought he could make each prequel for about 65-70 million each, but in the end turned out to cost about 115 million for each. I just think whenever you are making a special effects movie, whether it is Star Wars, Jurassic Park, or Titanic, going over budget seems to be the norm, cause it isn't like a drama where you are paying the lead actor huge sums of money and thats it.

I do agree that Kurtz gets too much praise sometimes, but you can't deny that SW & ESB seem to be the only two of the 6 that hold up or will hold up as classics in the future. Now is Kurtz the reason for that? Is Kershner the reason ESB was so great? Lucas wrote, directed, and produced the original SW, and that was a classic, so how did he go from that the director of my favorite movie of all-time to directing an underwhelming prequel trilogy 20 years later?

I think OT fans latch onto Kurtz cause he seems to be the last defender of when SW was great. I mean, growing up I watched the OT hundreds of times, and I never knew who Gary Kurtz was, even though his name was at the end credits everytime I watched them. I just really started reading about Gary Kurtz in the past 5 years, cause he seems to make alot of sense about how Lucas changed after ESB, and that just give the public enough for a SW movie, and it doesn't have to be a classic and they will come. Sadly, wasn't George right?
Post
#172912
Topic
New Gary Kurtz interview!
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/172912/action/topic#172912
Time
ANH SE 2007:

Artoo plays message:

Leia: General Kurtz you served Dictator Lucas for 2 movies, SW & ESB, and they turned out to be classics. Since 1983, Dictator Lucas has seized total control and now is writing, directing, and producing the SW movies, and worse off he is changing the older movies for the worse. We are in dire need for your help, I have placed new transfers of the O-OT on DVD in this R2 unit, you must see them to ILM for mass production and to offer the fans a real choice for the OT DVD's. Help me General Kurtz, your our only hope!

Post
#172612
Topic
Thinking of Fantasy Movies that came out during the OT
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/172612/action/topic#172612
Time
Originally posted by: Han Solo VS Indiana Jones
Did we mention Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan coming out during this period?

I'd throw Blade Runner and Conan the Barbarian into the mix but those really were for the adults only crowd.


Text

Good ones, I forgot about Star Trek II, III, IV, and Alien & Aliens.

Then compare the late 90's summer blockbusters: Independence Day, Twister, Armageddon, all ridiculous movies.
Post
#172421
Topic
Thinking of Fantasy Movies that came out during the OT
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/172421/action/topic#172421
Time
Originally posted by: Adamwankenobi[/

It's the same thing with the Ewoks in ROTJ. Lucas used ewoks because he thought it would be good for the story. He needed a primitive race. He knew he couldn't use wookiees, so what was he to do? If he made a species similar to wookiees, everyone would say it was a copy of his idea of wookiees. So... to paraphrase Lucas "he chopped the wookiees in half, and they became ewoks." I don't think it was for marketing purposes. Yeah, I know kids loved them, but I just can't see Lucas sacrificing his "vision" for cash.


Text

But Adam you proved my point, because the kiddiness of the ewoks hurts the seriousness of ROTJ. The great thing about ANH & ESB is the characters were funny, but they were not made just for comic relief. They were funny in the situation bickering at each other, and it doesn't come out as forced or just for a laugh. The PT Jar Jar was made just for comic relief and it just sticks out of the scenes.

Look at Back to the Future, I love that movie, probably right behind SW in my book, but it is a damn funny movie, but they didn't have any characters in there just to get laughs. Zemeckis used Michael J. Fox and Christopher Lloyd, who had great chemistry, and made it funny that Marty McFly's mom had the hots for him. There was nothing forced where you knew the director said, "OK this character is just for humor, that is his job."

That is what Jar Jar was for, and it failed. But there was a bigger issue that TPM really went too kiddy than it needed to, and I am telling you alot of fans who are younger than us who loved it, in 10-15 years are going to cringe at the humor. Trust me, I LOVED ROTJ at 10 years old, 20 years later, I still like it, mostly for Luke, Leia, and Han, but I realize this movie is alot more kiddie than ANH & ESB, and that is one of the reasons it doesn't hold up well. It isn't about just a dark movie, cause ANH is a great movie that isn't dark, its just about not catering to a younger audience that makes the movie juvenile at times, and that is my big beef with TPM.
Post
#172401
Topic
Thinking of Fantasy Movies that came out during the OT
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/172401/action/topic#172401
Time
I was watching the original Superman the other day on HBO, a movie I loved as a kid, and started thinking how much I really loved alot of those fantasy movies that came out during the OT days.

Star Wars Trilogy

Superman I & II

Back to the Future

The Terminator

Raiders of the Lost Ark

Jaws


If you remember all those movies were made for teenagers, or the SW OT market at the time. But the reason those movies hold up so well even 20-25 years later, is they did exactly what the PT didn't do. They didn't try to kiddie them up, just to go after a certain market. Even though they are all fantasy type movies in a way, and really aren't made for grownups, they were in a sense grownup movies made for kids. Seeing Raiders of the Lost Ark at 9 years old I loved it, but it wasn't made for my age group, nor was the SW or ESB, they made the movies, and if the little kiddies like myself at the time liked them, thats great, but they weren't going to put any humor in there to appease us.

The PT put Jar Jar, and C-3PO on Geonosis in there just to appease a certain audience, and yes the little kiddies love Jar Jar when their 7 years old. But 20 years from now when they pop in TPM, they are going to shake their head cause it is so juvenile. 20 years later I pop in Superman, Raiders, Back to the Future, and they still hold up as classic movies, that is where Lucas miscalculated long term for short term cash in his pocket.
Post
#172382
Topic
'Merge' Article- Lucas in his own words
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/172382/action/topic#172382
Time
Originally posted by: Mr Bungle
Its things like this, that make me lose respect for the man, he sometimes talks utter crap and he cant just say hes changed his mind, he has to put the blame elsewhere


Text

I agree, all Lucas has to say is , "Listen fans, back in 1977 I had this huge world for SW that may have been 12, 9, 6 movies, but you know what, I don't want to do SW all my life, things change, the way I wrote the saga changed, the technology changed, and I have probably said alot of things that may contradict myself in 2005, but I have paired it down the saga to 6 movies, and if you choose to see it as Anakins story, thats great, but I do understand older fans seeing the OT as Luke Story. Now let me get on with my life. Oh, and by the way, I am going to put out the O-OT on DVD so I can divorce myself from SW, no TV series, no merchandising, rest in peace!"

I would be a Lucas gusher again, if he was this honest!
Post
#172095
Topic
rotj sucks now because of the PT?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/172095/action/topic#172095
Time
Originally posted by: battlewars
i dont know what to think with that scene anymore, someone HELP ME!


Text

If you don't buy the force memories baloney, then you won't buy the scene, cause that is the only rationale by the PT defenders, and to me that is searching for straws.

This is what I do Battlewars, I pretend when watching the OT it is still before 1999, and just like Luke, I have memory of the PT, and the scenes means that Leia was taken away at childbirth to live with her real mom, and Luke was sent to Uncle Owen, who we don't know who Owen is related to, and Luke/Leia's mom dies when Leia is about 3-4 years old, but does have memories of her being sad and beautiful.

It was never put on sceen like that, but it worked me up May 19, 2005, until Padme died, and I realized Lucas didn't care about continuity. After 3 what if...Prequels, I started thinking like Renee Zellweger in Jerry Maguire, "Lucas had it me at Star Wars."
Post
#172039
Topic
Yoda talking in OT vs PT, way different
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/172039/action/topic#172039
Time
I was watching ESB the other night, and never noticed how normal Yoda talks compared to the PT Yoda. Maybe 10% of the time he talks when he reverses the sentence, as most of the time he trains Luke he really talks in normal sentences.

Then watching the PT Yoda, and almost every sentence he talks in reverse? If you compare him to ESB Yoda, he sounds like an idiot in the PT.

I wonder if Lucas has watched the OT since they came out sometimes........
Post
#172000
Topic
rotj sucks now because of the PT?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/172000/action/topic#172000
Time
Originally posted by: Adamwankenobi
IMHO, ROTJ is on the level of TPM and AOTC, while ROTS is on the level of ANH and ESB.

So, there are three excellent films (ROTS, ANH, ESB), and three OK films (TPM, AOTC, and ROTJ).


Text


You are partly right about the quality of the SW films, but I classify them this way

Classics - Star Wars, ESB

Very good, but problems- ROTJ, ROTS

Average - AOTC

Waste of 2 hours - TPM

But as I said earlier here is why ROTJ is better than ROTS, ROTJ got the scenes it needed to dead on, and the big scenes in ROTS are awful.

ROTJ needed two scenes to make the movie really good: The throne room scene and the space battle with Lando. Both are awesome and rank up there with SW & ESB quality in those parts. The ewoks are alright, the jabba scene goes on too long, but the sail barge scene and the death of Yoda are very well done, and the ending (Pre-Hayden Ghost) is very emotional cause it brings closure to the OT.

ROTS got the two key scenes wrong that really hurts a good SW movie. The turn & Padme's death. The turn is so badly executed, in fact the whole scene is so badly done, to me that was the key to the whole PT. And I back it up because as I showed in another post, Lucas was changing this scene after shooting a whole different way. First Palps fries his face, and doesn't stop? Then Anakin turns, but it is so underwhelming, "What have I done?" and then 5 seconds later, BAM, he's Darth Vader! First Palps tell him he knows the secret to cheat death, and then the next scene he tells him we can learn this secret together. Now Anakin is in idiot!

Then Padme losing the will to live, and Leia remembering her and not Luke, it is such an anticlimatic scene. First Padme spits out twins, then says, "There is still good in him, ObiWan." Then she loses the will to live? That doesn't make sense for the character arc for the past three movies? Then how does Leia remember Padme, and Luke doesn't? Luke was born first, Padme looks at Luke but never looks at Leia, but it is all because of force memories baloney that Lucas started trotting out after he wasn't going to go with the original story in 1983 that Padme survives and goes into hiding, thus making the ROTJ talk between Luke/Leia totally confusing to a new viewer.

ROTS had a chance to be a classic, and it did have those moments: Anakin alone in the jedi council with the eerie music playing, ObiWan yelling at a burning Anakin on Mustafar, really good stuff. But if Lucas can't sell to the fans why Anakin turned, or if the fans don't buy the whole turn scene in general, how can we think it is a great movie?
Post
#171848
Topic
rotj sucks now because of the PT?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/171848/action/topic#171848
Time
It doesn't suck, but as I re-examine the film after watching all 3 PT movies, it brought to my attention that Lucas was beginning to change in 1983.

Luckily, there are still great parts of the films along with some average parts, the PT on the other hand have great parts in each movies, but then there are dreadful parts in them too. The ewoks are kiddie, but they are not annoying. The Jabba sequence does go on too long, but it doesn't suck.

TPM had Jar Jar, and he ruins the movie, AOTC had the love story, and that makes me wince everytime they talk jibberish to each other, and makes the movie laughable at times. ROTS has great parts, and then the whole turn scene is bad, and losing the will to live and Leia remembering her mom puzzles me to this day.

ROTJ atleast got the parts right that mattered: The space battle and the throne room scenes. To me, those scenes which constitute the last 45 minutes are pure gold, throw in jabbas sail barge scene, Luke/Leia talk on Endor when it actually made sense before this force memory crap, and Yoda dying then Luke finally confronting ObiWan as a liar in the original, an emotional ending, and it is a really good, but not great movie. There is nothing that really matters in the movie, like the turn scene in ROTS which was key to the whole movie, that Lucas & Marquard screwed up.

But as I said, the PT made me realize that the pinnacle of SW was ESB. That was the last time greatness swept us off our feet for two hours. And you begin to say, 2 great movies out of 6, is this guy really a genius?

Up to 1999, SW to me was 2 classics, and 1 really good movie, and that was fine with me, I mean how many classics can you make? But now that Lucas couldn't make one classic from the PT, and ROTS he had all the story to be better than ESB & Star Wars, but couldn't pull it off. If you can discount ROTS, cause to me the continuity between that and ROTJ make ROTJ a worse movie, I watch them as 4,5,6, and it is just like the mid 80's for me, no new SW movies on the horizon, and 3 SW movies of Luke, Leia, and Han, and no idea that Darth Vader was a stalker who was really bad in picking up girls in my memory..............