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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

I think the biggest problem with the PT can be summed up as "WWTMI" -- way, way too much information.  There is just no mystery at all.  Star Wars was a simple movie, but it had some mystery in it.  If they had just made Anakin nice, like ObiWan, and have some cool personal interplay and battles like in the OT, without getting all complicated about exactly HOW Anakin turned, the first two movies could have been fine. Then, in Ep.3, all we really needed were a couple of hints, and Anakin disappearing for a while, and then one of their enemies turning out to be him, and we could all sit in wonder at how the dark side of the force can lure you unsuspecting if you're not careful.  As it is, we got a zillion details, and I still have no idea what the hell happened and what it had to do with the dark side of the force "seducing" Anakin - I think I'd rather just wonder, in fear, at how a nice guy could go bad.  As it was, a bad guy got worse.

There is alot of truth to this post, as I believe the Prequels are more like a documentary then a movie.  I believe Lucas took the prequels too 'literally' when he was writing them, as he felt like he couldn't take the story anyway other from point A to point B.  Especially Episode III:  OK, Anakin turns, then he kills the jedi, then he fights Obiwan, then he is put in armor, then the kids are sent to their foster parents, THE END!  When Lucas did try to throw a wrench into the story, he made it worse:  Let me have Owen own C3PO for 10 years!  Let me have Padme die of childbirth!  Let me have R2 fly and be this mobile droid! 

The ironic thing is Episode I is the one movie that isn't point A to point B to point C like Episode II & III.  It is almost like Lucas took the criticism of Jar Jar and then totally went the other way he wanted the trilogy to go after that! 

Anchorhead said:

Once studios realized they could create films without sets, locations, and often times without a need for more than a few cast members (yes, George - I'm speaking of the prequels also), they were all over it.  Once they realized they could make millions in revenue off of these two-hour advertisements for the software that created them - they sold their souls.

I can pinpoint 2 movies to the change in the summer blockbuster.  The first was Jurassic Park, because it open the door to CGI.  Now I love Jurassic Park, because it does have a cool story, essentially a moral tale that you shouldn't fuck with nature, and humans always get greedy in the end.  After JP, EVERY director started looking into this CGI as a tool.

The final nail in the summer blockbuster was Independence Day.  The movies was a smash hit, was the #1 movie all summer, audiences flocked to it.  It is the stupidest, souless, CGI fest I have ever seen. The characters are lame, and what sold people was the image of the White House blowing up. 

Before CGI, the director HAD to have cool characters, had to have a cool story, had to have drama, humor, because the effects could not be sold to the 'idiot' crowd that populates the summer movie today.

Look at the Top Summer Movies from the '80s:

1981- Raiders of the Lost Ark

1982- ET

1983- Return of the Jedi

1984- Ghostbusters

1985- Back to the Future

1986- Aliens

Can anyone put Transformers, GI Joe,  or Terminator Salvation up against them?  Raiders had an iconic character in Indiana Jones, ET's ending has more soul then any summer blockbuster today.  Back to the Future had a cool story of someone going back in time and his mom falls in love with him!  Ghostbusters even had memorable characters that are beloved today.  None of the summer movies today will stand the test of time, because they are all about CGI, action, CGI, explosions, and CGI.  And sadly that is why I have seen one summer movie in the past 4 summers:  The Dark Knight.

G E Predator said:

Not starting an argument.  Just sticking with my belief:

I hardly consider one SPFX change in a movie to make the story all the different.  It's still Anakin at the end of the Return of the Jedi.

Why doesn't Lucas just insert Ewan McGregor instead of Alec Guiness in that scene too, I mean its only one SPFX change and he is still Obiwan;)

Then again, Lucas should insert CGI Yoda in all ESB & ROTJ scenes, because its only a few SPFX changes, and it is still Yoda;)

G E Predator said:

 I simply consider every edition to be "definitive" because no matter how many times the special effects change, the story stays the same.

I would agree with you if Lucas just did minor changes to special effects, but as I stated earlier in this thread, he removed an actor (Sebastian Shaw/older Anakin) for a newer actor (Hayden/young Anakin) which does change the context of the Return of the Jedi now. 

Lucas is now saying that Anakin died in Episode III, and he and Darth Vader were essentially two different people, hence he comes back in the spirit that was the last time Anakin Skywalker was a good guy.

Which is the stupidest logic in the world, because the whole point of Return of the Jedi is that Vader is conflicted the WHOLE movie!!!  He is still Anakin deep deep deep down inside himself, as there is a glimmer of good that Luke brings out and he kills the Emperor.

So you're wrong about the changes, Lucas DID change the story, albeit making the story worse and it makes no sense now, it is a different story.

Anchorhead, you have to photoshop a picture of Lucas shrugging his shoulders in the backround saying, "We are waiting for mass support of BluRay to release SW on Bluray.  In 2026, you should be watching all 6 movies in 1080i!"

"I can say with pretty good confidence that at some point in the next several years there will be a complete set of Star Wars movies."

That's as vague as Leia's memories of her mom:)  Lets' see what will come first, the 2012 Summer Olympics, or Star Wars movies on BluRay....

Dont worry guys if kids watch the Saga 1-6 these days, they will change their opinion when they are older.

When I was growing up, the days before I had a VCR, I only had Cable TV and HBO to see the movies after they came out in the theater.  I saw Rocky II before Rocky I, I saw Temple of Doom before Raiders, and I saw Jaws 2 before Jaws, and also saw Superman II before Superman I.

For many years, those were my favorites of the series, simply because I saw them so many times on HBO.  I used to think Rocky I was boring and Rocky II was the cooler movie.  I used to think that Superman II was better then I, same with Temple of Doom because it had more action.

Probably around Highschool I started changing my views.  Of course now I can say that Rocky I, Raiders, Superman I, and Jaws are the elites of their movie series.  So have faith guys, kids are kids, and what they like will change as they get older.

G E Predator said:

 Nothing's about the films has really changed for me.   

 Well, that actor named Hayden Christenson, standing there next to Alec Guiness in ROTJ really changed things for me when I watch it!

 Gaffer,

For some reason I never heard that about Han and Carbonite, although I did know he only had a 2 picture deal.

For some reason, I know the least about ESB when it comes to behind the scenes material, probably cause it was my least favorite as a kid.  I remember the summer of '83 reading anything I can about ROTJ, watching all the documentaries, etc.  Of course there are so many docs about SW'77, so we all know everything about that movie.  I would love to find more behind the scenes stuff on ESB.

Isn't the Biggs/Luke dialogue changed in that scene too?  I think when it was shot in 1977, Biggs talks about remembering Lukes dad (when he was not Darth Vader).  I have to watch that scene again, but Biggs's mouth moves to different dialogue!

Interesting to read that the reason Han was put in carbonite was because they didn't know if he would do the 3rd movie.  A great moment in the OT simply because Ford wasn't contractually obligated for another movie!

These are the movies I would have loved to see THAT year they came out, just to see the crowd reaction to iconic events.  For anyone who saw these that year, please tell me what it was like.

1.  Jaws -  I would kill to see peoples reaction to the shark gobbling up people.   From what I heard, people were scared shitless walking out of that theater in 1975!

2.  Star Wars -  I did see it in 1977, but I was only 5 years old, so I only remember images, feelings like Leia did:)  Just to see the crowds reaction when Luke blows up the deathstar at the end is worth the price of admission, as I guarantee it got a standing ovation.

3.  Back to the Future -  For some reason, I didn't see this in the theater, and didn't catch it until VHS in the summer of 86.  But it would be funny to see the reaction of people when Marty kisses his mom!

4.  Rocky -  Another movie that was a crowd pleaser.  The music, the training, Rocky going the distance, isn't this what going to the movies is all about?

5.  The Godfather -  If anyone saw it in 1972, did you realize you were witnessing greatness?  IMO, the greatest movie ever made.

6.  The Empire Strikes Back -  I was 8 years old, and remember it alittle bit more.  But to listen to the crowd reaction to, "No, I am your father!"  is an iconic moment.

7.  Platoon -  I remember my brother seeing it in the theater in 1986, and he said after the movie, it is was silent, as people were just amazed at how powerful the movie was, and how horrific Vietnam was.  I saw Saving Private Ryan, as I felt the same way as no one cheered, it was just a quiet respect for a great movie.

8. Superman:The Movie -  Again, I was only 6 when this came out, so I did not see this in the theater, but what was it like seeing that great opening?  John Williams score?  Brando as Supermans father?  Then seeing someone fly on screen that looked real?

Gaffer Tape said:

Something I've always wondered about including that scene, though, would have been pacing.  Where would it fit in the film?  As much crap as I give the rescue plan in this movie, it does give the characters INTERESTING introductions into the film.  Luke building his lightsaber, while being cool to see on its own, would probably ruin his introduction into that film.

 I agree.  The one great thing the OT did was give a great introduction in all 3 movies to each character, something Lucas totally failed on in the PT movies.   Now as a SW fan that has seen the OT films thousands of times, seeing deleted scenes of this stuff years later would still be cool too.

Anchorhead said:

It would seem to me that it can't be the art of film making that's at the root because there are things being done now that are so real that we don't always know when we're seeing CGI, truly incredible things.  My guess is that it has something more to do with age.  Maybe we're less likely to accept new trusted companions as we grow older.  Maybe we can't be moved at the same level we were when we were young, at least not where films are concerned.

 

I still say CGI killed the modern day movie, and because they are so profitable, they just don't try to make as many 'good story/character driven' movies they had in the past.

Look at Transformers, that movie is raking in millions and millions, why wouldn't a studio capitalize on this and try to make something like this in the future?  Why make a drama that the older crowd will go to once or may wait for it on DVD, when you can make some mindless CGI-action film that teenagers will see 3-4 times.  I don't blame studios because they are doing the $mart thing as to their bottom line, but they also are lowering the bar for movies in general.

So what we get now are the 'dramas' at the end of the year, as all of them come out from Thanksgiving to Christmas, as they compete for an oscar and are geared towards adults.  Usually, there are about 10-12 movies that fall into that category.  From May 1st to the end of August are the summer CGI movies that appeal to kids/teenagers.  Then from January to April and September to October are usually the thrillers, horrors, comedies that don't want to compete with the crowded summer movies, but still cater to teenagers/20 somethings.

I realized this about 5-6 years ago, when the only time I wanted to see a movie was around Christmas, and then I looked up great movies from the past, and saw Goodfellas came out in September 1990, and movie like Witness came out in February 1985.  We aren't different cause a good movie is still a good movie, just times are different, IMO.

What a crappy decade, as I can't even think of 10 great movies.  I was looking through my DVD collection, and I think I have 5 movies from this decade!

Anchorhead said:

I wasn't addressing you specifically as a hateful fan.  I was speaking more to the handful of fans that vomit hate all over the board because they feel Lucas owes them. I've edited my post to reflect that.

Anchor, I also don't like the people that spew hate on the internet, espeically those people on www.aintitcool.com, as you have to read some of those talkbacks about Lucas!  Just to give you an example, "Fuck you Lucas and all of your fat chins you fucking ruined Star Wars!"

In saying that, this is the internet, and as long as people are able to hide behind their computers, and not show their faces, then you are going to get an element that is harsh and negative.

I kinda take those people with a grain of salt, because I GUARANTEE if we all sat down in an focus group and were asked to describe our thoughts on the SW movies, it would be much more civilized, and much more constructive.  But as long as you can just type away and nobody knows who you are, then you are going to get idiots who say, "Lucas is a fat fuck!"  and then other idiots who say, "Attack of the Clones should have won the Academy Award for Best Picture."  That was from ObiRobKenobi2 from www.theforce.net

What I try to do is just engage with people like you Anchor, and others here who I know just want to debate and have an honest debate, as I have walked away here many times when morons have taken over the boards like Gomertonic and a few others who are just trolls.

1.  Goodfellas

2.  A Few Good Men

3.  Saving Private Ryan

4.  Pulp Fiction

5.  Heat

6.  Silence of the Lambs

7.  Unforgiven

8.  Titanic

9.  The Sixth Sense

10.  Apollo 13

Damn, this was a great decade!  Honorable mention:

Jurassic Park, The Matrix, The Shawshank Redemption, Braveheart, Schindlers List, Ghost, Resevoir Dogs, The Fugitive, Jerry Maguire, LA Confidential, The Green Mile

Anchorhead said:

I'd make the argument that the original deserves proper respect & preservation because it did so much more than what a few gold statues can do.  Star Wars permanently altered the course of film, particularly any film set in space. After Star Wars, outer space adventure had to look & feel real or it was in for some tough criticism.  People wanted the stories not only to resonate with their experiences, but to resemble them as well - that used universe that Lucas presented so perfectly in Star Wars. 

There have been plenty of films that won multiple awards, including best picture, and not had the effect on their genre that Star Wars had. Star Wars went a step further and cemented the (then) recent phenomenon of Summer Blockbuster that had been ushered in with Jaws.  A film's effect on the world is a much more honest measure of it's importance to people than the Academy Awards.  Which, by the way, are voted on by the people in the film industry - hardly an honest measure of value & importance.

 

 I agree with ya Anchor.

I always thought that the Original Star Wars needed to be preserved simply because it did change movies.  I would kill for a 5-star BluRay version of the OOT version of SW'77.

I think what Lucas doesn't understand is that the OOT is timeless and those movies may show their age, but each generation loves them just as much.

The perfect example is The Wizard of Oz, the movie has continued to be popular since 1939, even though you and I see that they are 1939 sets, but no one cares, because it is the characters and story that make it timeless, not the production values.   If Lucas understood that the OT is beloved because of Luke, Leia, Vader, Han, the Droids, etc, and the fun story we follow for 3 movies, the effects were always secondary.

edit:  I will still stand by for all the problems with the PT we debate here and for all the CGI Lucas used that some love and others hate, IMO, the characters suck and I didn't give a rats ass about Anakin or Padme, thats why I will never love those 3 movies.

These are my favorites:

1.  The Godfather

2.  Star Wars

3.  Jaws

4.  Rocky

5.  Dirty Harry

6.  Superman:The Movie

7.  The Godfather, Part 2

8.  Animal House

9.  Slap Shot

10.  The Deer Hunter

Everyone has named the obvious (Empire, Raiders, Back to the Future),  so my list will be the OTHER movies that seem to get left out because it was such a great decade in movies:

1.  Midnight Run -  The movie is hilareous from start to finish

2.  Plains, Trains, Automobiles - I think someone named it above, but the best line, "Those aren't pillows!!!!!"

3.  Predator -  Arnold in his prime.

4.  Lethal Weapon -  The sequels started to become a bit too goofy, but this was a gritty action film.

5.  Sixteen Candles - John Hughes in his prime.

6.  Breakfast Club -  Perfect Casting.

7.  National Lampoons Vacation - "This is crazy, this is crazy!"

8.  Fletch -  This movie always get overlooked, but is funny as hell.

9. Witness - Underrated Harrison Ford Flick.

10.  The Untouchables -  "They put one of your guys in the hospital, you put one of theirs in the morgue!"

11.  Rain Man -  One of the best dramas of the decade.

12.  Fast Times at Ridgemont High -  Movie still holds up today.

13.  Risky Business -  Teenage movies today always play down to their audience, but this does the opposite.

14.  Wargames -  Loved it as a kid, and another movie that is made for kids, but doesn't talk down to the audience.

Rocky IV - It is a laughable movie, but damn I love it!  That was the zenith of the MTV generation, and Stallone played that card to all of us back in '85.  How can you not love Rocky training in Russia, and then beating a Russian twice his size:)