Burdokva

Is it weird that I enjoy RLM's thrashing reviews more than the actual prequel movies?

One thing I hadn't really noticed, not on a conscious level anyway, was how poor the directing really was. I always thought there was something off about the prequels, the way the felt and how the story flowed. Everyone is walking or sitting down. And the reverse camera...

Argh! I completely agree. The three prequels are so still and lifeless and the camera work so uninspired during dialogue sequences it's ridiculous. 20-minute episodic comedy shows have better camera angles and pacing.

I remember a topic on TheForce.net a few years back, something like "Visual Storytelling" where people posted screenshots of an actor or two over a CGI composition shot and explained how powerful the imagery is and that it's a story all in itself.

Can't remember a single visual iconic stand-out scene out of the entire trilogy. Not one. And I can immediately think of at least one visually inspired scene by any other popular (even if not that great) movie trilogy, let alone something like LotR.

Like Ghostbusters I though Anakin would be a more mature character. Luke's age, but more akin to Han Solo in experience and attitude. Though I would have greatly preferred if his background was simply left in the dark, and that Owen was his real brother from the beginning, I like the idea that he was a slave.

Contrary to many people I expected Anakin's turn to be very evil. Not the Shakespearian drama Lucas so ineptly tried to pull off, not some melodramatic twist, just evil. Anakin should have become Vader knowing into what he would turn into. Lust for power? For knowledge of the Force, becoming the ultimate weapon in the Galaxy (hence his attitude in A New Hope about the Death Star being insignificant compared to the Force). Just in my humble opinion his redemption at the end of Jedi would have been more powerful if it was the redemption of an actually evil and not a tragic man.

In short:

- a better space battle with a story and an impact on the plot of the movie - a set up,  beginning, and an end, like Endor. Instead we got a dozen mindless minutes of ILM's CGI prowess.

- Windu finally getting something better to do. I hoped Lucas would pull a reverse of Jedi throne scenes, just sitting there and manipulating Anakin/Vader to destroy Windu. Mace Windu should have been the best Jedi Knight on par with only Obi-Wan, yet Vader in his prime, with the suit, should have crushed him. I think we desperately needed a show of force from him, why is Darth Vader so feared anyway?!

- Obi-Wans vs Anakin handled differently. Preferably at the beginning of the movie (with Anakin's fall being the final of Ep.II), so he can spent most of the time in the costume. Not like people now presume Vader's costume is like an advanced wheelchair that let's him move at all, but rather the suit should have made him even better at annihilating Jedi.

- I didn't like the concept of the imposing Jedi temple on Coruscant, but if it had to be there, at least we should have seen the stormtroopers assaulting it and defeating the actual Jedi, not some children.

- Proper ending for the entire Separatists story line. Entirely wasted throughout the prequels, even though it had a lot of potential (a twist, what if they had been the good guys?)...

Generally less scenes that strive so hard to be visually game-like cool for teens that they end up being stupid.

I was about the age of your oldest kid when I first saw them, early 90's on my uncle's poor VHS tapes. Besides getting scared of the first time Darth Vader arrived on the Tantive IV (and that's the only clear memory I have of my first time watching Star Wars), I don't think there's anything unsuitable for a child.

Besides, Ewoks at the end of Jedi is much easier to swallow and not get too bothered by if you watch the movie as a kid.

When did Star Wars stop being fun?

For me, mostly after May 2002 and Attack of the Clones. Various EU things are fun, and the OT is still a blast to watch, but as a whole Star Wars has become a big "meh" for me...

Am I the only one who believes this is possibly related to the upcoming Star Wars: The Old Republic MMO? Those type of games either flop, or generate a ridiculous amount of money and a large subscriber base.

And from what I've read (although personally, I have no intention of playing TOR, which ironically in my language means "feces") it's an insanely expensive project. The most expensive game ever, with a budget higher than that of a prequel movie? Surely they must be expecting millions of subscribers and a huge revenue.

And since that thing will probably reach its peak a few years after release, accidentally around 2015-16, why not release a new set of movies then? The release date of Star Wars 3D already coincides with that of TOR.

IMHO, it's all a hugely powered all-round media drive to milk out Star Wars as a franchise.

If a good writer and director were behind it, I'd love to see a new trilogy based on BioWare's Knights of the Old Republic game. Sadly, I can't see this happening...

I bet whatever LucasFilm makes, if anything, it will be complete stupidity. I'm not exited at all.

Believe it or, I played that sound from my PC audio system I few moments ago, and some kids outside laughed their asses off...

It's that bad.

Pretty much what I do too. I strive to ignore what I've read and in hindsight I don't like, and I only read/watch/play new Star Wars-related products based upon opinions in forums like originaltrilogy.com. "Old school" fans, if nobody minds (I'm younger than most here, but I've often been told by fellow Star Wars fans that I have an "old school" mentality towards the franchise).

Things I like, I keep, and add to my own vision of Star Wars. Things I don't, I try to erase.

I even piece up things from various stories, visual cues, music etc. ...

I watched the Revisited:Purist edition with my parents the other night, finally (I've been trying to get this thing in a long time)!

The last time I've watched ANH was Ady's regular Revisited cut back in 2006 (I think), while my parents the SE in cinema in '97.

Personally, I think the Purist edition is absolutely the best version of Star Wars I've seen. Maybe the original '77 cut has mostly faded from my memory, as I watched them nearly twenty years ago on VHS? Either way, I prefer the Purist to both '77 and '97SE (esp. the latter) and its my personal canon from now on.

I didn't really like some of the more radical edits in the regular Revisited cut, like the prequel music and imperial march, the very extended Death Star / TIE fighters reveal etc. The Purist not only brings back the story structure of the original cut, for which I'm very grateful, but the technical additions are spectacular.

Seeing the Yavin gas giant in the background during the battle, the rearranged and extended fighter-on-fighter engagements, the reworked blaster bolts (!) and lightsabers were all fantastic. From a technical perspective the conversations in the Falcon, while in hyperspace, are by far the most impressive and subtly done. Still, what I like most of all is a tie between two things:

- the duel between Obi-Wan and Vader... in the Purist it's so subtle and tastefully done I wasn't even sure that it got "boosted" for the edit.

- the Falcon vs. TIE fighters, escaping the Death Star. Absolutely thrilling. The prequels' best action scenes don't hold a candle to how Ady rearranged the space skirmish in the Purist/Revisited edit.

Removing the scene with Jabba early on was, in my opinion, a great move.

As for my parents, that's the first time they watched the entire movie in over a decade and they had a blast. They noticed it looked more visually impressive but they couldn't pick out the changes, besides a couple of (very nice!) CGI screens. While it's understandable because they haven't memorized the movie like most fans, I think it show how subtle most things blend in.

Overall, between the two, I'd definitely recommend the Purist edit. While Revisited had many things that took the movie a bit too far away from its original self, the Purist is like a visually enhanced '77 cut, which retains only the best CGI shots from the '97SE and adding a lot of its own. I just don't understand how could someone not love the Purist edit, it's magnificent and what Lucas should have made with the DVDs!

Now, my minor criticism:

- I don't know if it was due to me watching the movie on a very bright day, but the picture was a bit too dark and contrast-y in some places. Still, miles better than the DVDs even in the "worst" parts...

- Death Star "planet" background. Both edits (Revisited and Purist) are very impressive visually, but those composite shots always looked a little too fake.

- the Purist edit had some of the Yavin gas giant backgrounds removed compared to th Revisited, I think? Not sure why, as I liked Yavin in the background, but the battle still looked great.

I only wish it could have been HD. I don't know if it's possible, but I hope someone can take the Purist DVD and upscale it and do some filter magic, overlay some scenes once the BluRays come out etc. I don't want to be a whiner, but this edit just deserves the glory of HD... I wouldn't mind seeing a preservation of an edit!

Thanks, Ady! Looking forward to TESB: Revisited !

Gaffer Tape said:

Bingowings said:

In the OT Jedi seems to mean more than just Jedi Knight.

I always felt the same way.  And it was for that reason that it somewhat annoyed me in ROTS when Obi-Wan was made a Jedi Master.  That seemed to come out of left field.  Obi-Wan was a Jedi Knight.  He fought.  He was a warrior.  He had been in wars in his youth.  Yoda was a Jedi Master.  He was a teacher.  He was a philosopher.  He was more spiritual.  It seemed an important distinction to me as a child, but that distinction was done away with in the prequels.

 Honestly, the prequels ruined Jedi completely for me. I loved the scenes early on in TPM when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon entered in battle; those were the Jedi at the height of their fame, the galactic guardians. TPM portrayed them as awe inspiring warriors, but still with a sense of dignity and realism. They were stoic, thoughtful, restrained. Qui-Gon's reply "I can only protect you, I cannot fight a war for you" perfectly echoed who the Jedi were in the Original Trilogy.

After that, they became run of the mill action heroes. I was still hoping that the avalanche of material EU between TPM and AotC with over-the-top Jedi battling, that Lucas would ignore it; one of Jackson's few decent lines was at the begging of AotC: "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers"! And yes, I though, no need to worry! Ugh...

Two hours later Jedi were, for me, forever demolished as the mystic warrior - philosophers from the Originals and became just superhero clones with lightsabers. There were more Jedi in the prequels than other character types combined. Honestly, look at the trend now - every Star Wars inspired game over the last decade has steadily involved into more and more visually overwhelming Jedi combat, every story seems to revolve around one of the "few" thousands of surviving Jedi during the reign of the Empire. It's devolved mostly to lightsaber mashing; lightsabers popped up so frequently in the prequels they're not interesting anymore. There's no more sense of excitement like when a character in the Originals ignites one.

 You just expect fancy dancing around, with minimal immersion, plot and drama. It isn't that impressive as choreography after TPM (which was the high-mark in this regard).

Jedi Apprentice was a great series. I had five volumes, and someone stole them. Blasted thieving people...

Shatterpoint is fantastic and far above most prequel-related stuff. The Thrawn Trilogy really captured the classic Star Wars feeling too, in my humble opinion.

 I liked th first two Republic Commando volumes. Haven't bothered to read the rest, but it was an interesting diversion from Jedi, the Force and such.

Last night, a local TV is airing the entire Saga in local 480p stereo greatness... I really had nothing to do, so I watched RotS. For the first time since early 2007, when I used it to test my HDTV.

Some parts are actually good, and some of the effects work is still outstanding, but overall it's the mess I remember and the green-screen glory is slowly beginning to show its age. I wonder how AotC looks in HD...

Not to poke my luck, but 2015 for the Original Trilogy? Will I even be alive by then?...

I'm rather surprised how much I don't care. Maybe I'll go see the originals in 3D, if they're at least the '97SE editions and not the horribly tinted DVDs (with bonus Hayden and Jar Jar awfulness). To be honest, some of the classical action scenes could look great in 3D. Battle of Endor...? Huge potential.

Also, I'm expecting backlash at the prequels' effects. They were all the rave in the late 90's - early 2000s, but in a few years, in a theater, I sure people (the masses, that is) will see how horribly CGI ages and how poorly they stack next to the effect of the OT. Actually, this is the only CGI heavy film (or trilogy) that will be re-released in theaters a decade after its original run, won't it?

At least I'm curious how it'll turn out.

Though Lucas can decide to make even more edits on the OT and mess it even more...

captainsolo said:

Try playing any of the awful prequel games (JEDI FREAKING BASH YOUR CONTROLLER AND PLAYSTATION AGAINST THE FLOOR POWER BATTLES!) and in about 2 minutes you will be cursing bad programmers, designers, and lucas. Or you could read an awful prequel novel.

Stover's ROTS novelization is so much better than the film though. Characters actually have psychological depth. If his Shatterpoint had been Episode II I think all of us would have been happy. (just about the best thing about the prequels.)

So I'd recommend reading the novelizations, and Ady's TPM reconstruction to have the least offensive prequel run.

 Actually, one of the best Star Wars games is, sadly, a prequel setting - "Republic Commando". I'm saying sadly because the prequels are undeserving of that game. Me, and every one of my friends, cared more about any of the clones in the squad than any prequel character, ever. It completely pulverizes the prequels in the quality of its action sequences, tension, dialogue and drama.

Also, Stover's "Shatterpoint" is a great book. I know many people don't like it because it's supposedly "too dark, too philosophical and too militaristic" to be Star Wars... but hey, those people got their child-friendly, flat and "war is fun" prequels in the end.

The ending was pure awesome -

Vader: "Hold on, you shot first!"

Han: "Yeah, why shouldn't I?"

The first "Knights of the Old Republic"could translate into an excellent trilogy with a good team of writers and a competent director. That, I would love to see. Probably the best story and setting since the OT itself.

Otherwise... no, not really.

I always though that pilot rammed Vader on purpose. He was fired upon, screamed look out at his leader and did his best to protect him from incoming fire. At least that's what I've always thought since watching ANH while I was around 4 years old.

As to why Han didn't shoot at Vader... it's Han, really. He went in, guns blazing wildly, screaming like an idiot when nobody besides Luke (and maybe Rebel command) could hear him. It's luck he actually did hit something. :)

SilverWook said:

The sad fact is trained professional projectionists are a vanishing breed. I've seen the quality of presentations go way downhill the past two decades. The guy working the snack bar is often the one who turns the projectors on.

The last time I had to complain about focus issues, it took three trips before anything was done and half the movie was over. Sad thing is, I was the only one who got off my ass to complain!

Two horror stories from different eras: I saw Star Trek 6 opening night, and the print already had a vertical scratch on the right side of the frame for the whole movie.

I saw the special theatrical screening of the remastered Star Trek episode "The Menagerie" a few years back. That was being broadcast (via satellite?) into participating theaters. Some dumbass had the projection system set at SD resolution! By the time I figured it out, it was too late to complain, alas. I think we could make an entire thread recalling the botched screenings we've all seen! ;)

Some film buffs have taken to calling digital IMAX "LieMAX" because it isn't film, but I've been pretty impressed with my local venue so far. I do think it's sad a lot of people will never see a true 70mm presentation though. Seeing Empire all those years ago in 70mm six track Dolby will always be a cherished memory for me. I really need to see 2001 on the big screen, and maybe a Cinerama film before I die.

 I don't know where you live, but sadly that's pretty much the norm in Eastern Europe. Ironically, the best projection I've been to over the past decade was in a cinema that plays only old, classical prints (not sure about the exact term in English), on a theatrical 1980 TESB print. I'm not sure what bothered me more, that the image quality was far superior to the "best" modern local cinema, including digital, or that my friends complained about it being not CGI enough.

What I miss most about film tape is the grain. I even use the grain effect in games that allow it (Mass Effect, for example). Fine quality grain only adds life and character to the movie. New digital pristine and flat movies I can barely stand, animation excluded.

I've been away from the forums for a while, so I'd like to ask - ABC, should I get the new version? I know, rather stupid question, but I'm perfectly content with the AE, it's marvelous in sound quality, and it was very difficult to download all three disks. It seems servers as MegaUpload and the like just hate me, or something...

 Are the improvements/refinements of such great difference to warrant a new download? I'm not doubting it would be of high quality, just if it's different enough to the AE.

Thanks, and best of luck with any future restorations, ABC! :)

bkev said:

Also, if you love the Phantom Menace score, I implore you to check out tlbauerle's work on Symphony for a Saga. Best representation of the quality the music has, I think.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll check it out!

Diego said:

I'm of the very small minority that considers Episode I the best of the prequels, so I have a soft spot for it.

Me too. Despite all of its flaws, I like TPM the most. I was only eleven years old when it came out and remember it more fondly than the other prequels, plus it's bearable as a stand-alone story. What I like about it I like a lot, in fact:

 1. Overall feeling. It was very different in style to the OT, yet it's the only prequel that felt alien and fantastical like the original movies; I still can't quite point out whether if it's due to the camera work, scale models, or exactly because it's so different, but it feels more like Star Wars than the other CGI prequels.

 2. Visual and audio design. Love the locations (Naboo's core being the exception) of TPM, the vehicles, droids, costumes, props and spaceships. TPMs CGI looks quite outdated today, but its composite effects hold incredibly well. N-1 starfighter, AAT tank, even the "donut" battleship, excellent sci-fi designs. A nod to the audio effects, the vehicles just sounded great.

 3. Liam Neeson's Qui-Gon Jin. If there was a Jedi I could relate to as an actual character rather than nameless action hero with a glowing baseball bat in the prequels, that was him. Ewan McGregor's Obi-Wan is great, too, but his performance is better in AotC and RotS (one of the few things that are better about them). Anyway, any scene with both of them in it is quite fun and well acted.

 4. Random action shots. The initial assault on Theed, blaster firefights in the palace corridors, all of the few space battle scenes without kid Anakin*, the escape from Naboo, droids deploying for battle/droid invasion. And all scenes with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan fighting, especially the Duel of the Fates.

 5. Duel of the Fates - deserves own mention.

 6. Darth Maul. Best prequel villain, although I would have loved to see Christopher Lee in an extended role. His count Dooku could have been an excellent Separatist equivalent to moff Tarkin throughout the entire prequel trilogy, instead of just two short (and pointless) lightsaber duels. They would have made an excellent combo as the physically strong and cunning villains in the long run.

 7. The soundtrack. Best among the prequels, I can still hum many of the themes by memory.

 8. Ian McDiarmid. Excellent performance in a poorly written role. I wish he had a bit more time in TPM. I preferred his sleazy manipulation then outright villainy. Oh, wasn't he just slimy...

 9. Watto. Proof CGI comic relief characters can work.

That's about it. I can point out random things from AotC and RotS like individual designs, locales, music cues etc., but nothing as coherent and important as in TPM.

*no offense to Jake Loyd, not his fault really.

EDIT:, Hm, I guess I should add Jango and Obi-Wan's confrontation too. Both the stand-off and the actual fight on the rain, on the platform. It was well executed, plus I've always wondered how a regular soldier would perform against a Jedi in the movie.

I'm younger than most people here, but even I remember the VHS versions had a different sound... more powerful and distinctive AT-AT guns, and that snowspeeder crashing sound! The last one was perfect, I really don't understand why it's muffled in newer versions. It sounds like a falling plane, just enough to get the viewer uncomfortable and nervous, and to add to the tension of the battle.

Depends on the situation, but keep in mind there's a company of stormtroopers inside that thing. I'm sure the rebels were scrambling to destroy it before they could deploy.

And the ground commander (?) is just doing what he thinks is best, sending in demolition experts; up to that point, the rebel speeders haven't been able to take out an AT-AT with their blasters.

Ady, fantastic coloring! The picture quality is great, it's almost as thrilling as seeing TESB for the first time. As was suggested on the previous page, the speeders could benefit from shadows in some shots. I really like sall detail, such as the burnt flesh as Solo opens the tauntaun.

 Yoda, good ideas, esp. the AT-AT full power blast. It actually seems to be building up and flashing as it fires, nice!

Ripplin said:

yoda1138 said:

The AtSt clip is good, a bit too cgi looking...

They all are, really (the snowtroopers one is best, but the door mechanism still reeks of CG in its ultra smooth motion, and the AT-AT clip looks like a video game), but seeing it's copyrighted 2003 makes me wonder what it would look like with 7 more years of technique/experience/etc...

Around friends and gaming I have a fair idea how CGI, even home made by talented artists, has progressed over the last decade, I'd say a current render could make excellent background action scenes. I like the idea of the AT-STs being destroyed because it also makes the rebel towers actually do something - and reinforces the impact of the scene where the AT-AT that was struck by a tower didn't suffer any damage. They suddenly become far more menacing...

Oh, and yes, Hoth is an amazing piece. It feels like a real battle and such a far cry from the prequels' CGI senseless ground melees...

I remembered some nice old YouTube renders of AT-ST and AT-AT on Hoth:

AT-ST Hoth

AT-ATs

 Would the CGI look fake if it was farther away in the background? Plus, they're old renders (at least the first), I suppose newer 3D renders could have a better and more realistic lighting.

Oh, this was nice too:

Snowtroopers fixed

EDIT: Sorry, should be fixed now.