Broom Kid

Now Dre just has to actually make a prediction!

I still think they’ll do it eventually.

75th anniversary, maybe. If they can wait that long. 60th is probably a better bet.

JUSTICE FOR DEL

I’m very familiar with Mr. Collins - his Soundtrack Show is very, very good. I like those old Oxygen shows, but I also wish there were versions of it where it was just him. His co-host doesn’t add much and is usually just distracting.

I too was like “I don’t know that Williams really brought it with this release” upon the first month or so with the soundtrack. And then it was like something unlocked one day. I couldn’t even tell you what it was, but I very much remember one day not just realizing how packed full of goodness that score was, but how well it fit in with his original trilogy work. It really did feel of a piece with the original score in the way it sounds, the way it moves through various emotions, the way all the motifs are knitted together in ways you seriously have to listen for to discover.

It’s a soundtrack that is KNITTED together, really. And if you don’t know what the design is, you might just confuse it for a lot of basic (or even bland) underscore. But once you realize just how many motifs and themes are being moved around and interpreted/re-interpreted, that Force Awakens score just opens up.

I’d love to be able to see one of those live-to-picture concerts for Force Awakens some day.

At the time it was released, it was probably the prettiest Star Wars film ever made. At least until Rogue One came out.

But so far as technical filmmaking craft, I have a hard time knocking anything about The Force Awakens. Creative decisions in storytelling, directing, editing… sure, I get a lot of the criticisms, some I agree with some I don’t. But the way this movie was shot, and the way this movie sounds? Damn near flawless. It is one hell of a pop confection. Abrams, Dan Mindel, Ren Klyce and Matthew Wood were literally at the top of their game from an audio/visual perspective.

20th Century Fox paid for the Special Editions, yes. It was on their dime, and I believe it was initially their idea, too. Lucas ended up negotiating with them further, and used the money they’d initially earmarked for a 20th anniversary restoration and re-release of Star Wars to be a “Special Edition” trilogy project (I believe they got Fox to increase the budget at that point as well) but the story of the Special Edition starts with 20th Century Fox approaching Lucas about getting the original film back in theaters as an event, and Lucas then using his leverage to fix things he wanted to fix then, and add things he couldn’t have added, especially since Fox agreed to pay for it.

Now the quality of the “fixes” can be debated, and have been for over 20 years now, I’m not going to argue that the execution was successful. But the intent of the Special Editions was definitely different than the intent behind the DVD release, and the later blu-ray release. The Special Editions were initially begun with a bigger idea of “fixing” the movies so that they looked and felt more like he wanted them to back then. The DVD and Blu-Ray additions - not paid for by Fox - were undertaken more along the idea of “this seems cool, put it in there.”

The actual Special Editions (the 97 theatrical releases are really the only ones that are actually “Special Editions,” everything else is just Star Wars) seemed a lot more concerned with “fixing” things, and a lot of errors were tackled. The Special Editions were also on Fox’s dime, entirely. Some of the more egregious additions to the Special Editions were done as a sort of testing ground for prequel effects, but the SEs did do a decent job of removing “mistakes” from the original releases.

You’re right however that the 2004 DVD release and the 2011 blu-ray release (which were Lucasfilm budgeted, I believe) were less about fixing anything and more about adding stuff if they could. Those releases didn’t really have the same mandate as the Special Edition did, and likely had a smaller budget. So the idea there was different, and the execution reflects that - those releases are definitely more along the lines of “put that thing in there, that’ll be cool” instead of “here’s a list of errors I’d like cleaned up.”

LOL, that’s pretty crazy. It seems obvious to me they’re all the exact same person (it’s definitely not two different characters in the same Empire scene)

Should we start a petition to recognize the efforts of Del Goren in his fight against the empire?

JUSTICE FOR DEL

Yeah, I just looked at the clip and I’m pretty sure this is Burnell Tucker in both instances. But the “It’s metal!” guy ISN’T the same Rebel as “Enemy Fighters” guy?

Star Wars
https://youtu.be/2WBG2rJZGW8?t=246

Empire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmi5sreXVMA

If they’re not the same rebel, seems like a missed opportunity.

Only just recently noticed this in Empire, but I don’t know if I really noticed it or if I think I noticed it.

The guy in Star Wars who says “enemy fighters coming your way” is, I think, in Empire too? As the same rebel?

I looked it up and apparently that guy’s name is Del Goren, played by Burnell Tucker. IMDB is showing that Burnell Tucker is also in The Empire Strikes Back, and I think he’s the guy who is monitoring the Imperial Probe Droid transmission before Han and Chewie go out after it.

Thank you everybody for your responses!

Are you actually streaming it in 4k right now? Every other account I’ve read from the Netherlands is that they’re marking things as being available in 4K but none of the content is actually encoded at that level. If you’re getting an actual 4k stream and not a 1080 stream marked as 4K, it means they’re already starting to update/upgrade the files they’re serving since the platform went live.

Also, I’m guessing the Ewok movies and show isn’t up there? I have yet to see anyone say they’ve watched them, and considering people are finding stuff like the '90s X-Men and Gargoyles episodes, Ewoks should have turned up by now.

I love that it’s Father Roderick doing the walk through

I also noticed that in the D23 trailer, they made sure to go through the saga in chronological order. Which makes sense, as the saga really only works in that order. Watching them in episode order really handicaps the prequels more than they’re already handicapped, since there are things in the prequels that basically don’t work at all unless you have a working knowledge of the three movies that preceded them. not just from a plotting perspective, but a tone and feeling POV. A lot of those movies rely on you knowing what’s being referenced, or what’s coming down the road in the original trilogy.

it seems like they haven’t made any sort of official announcement (I don’t think they ever would, either) but based on their platform, their pages on other platforms, and general practices like in the D23 trailer, Disney now believes the best way to work through the Star Wars saga is in chronological/release order, and not episode order.

I’m feeling comfy that most of the general stuff we’ve heard in the last couple weeks is more or less right, myself. It’s weird as hell in a lot of ways, but weird in ways that sound pretty likely, considering the motivations of the characters, and the history of the people in control behind the scenes. I’m certain a good third of it is off somehow, with some of that being completely wrong and/or deleted from earlier in production, but the big bullet points of who is doing what and why seem sound, to me.

I honestly think a opening night screening where people are primed to let out that huge cheer for the main title card and then it… doesn’t come? That could be great.

It seems like the last couple weeks have essentially gotten us to a pretty solid place in terms of basic plotting and motivation for the movie.

The most intriguing thing to me, honestly, is the idea that the movie might not start with the main title and scroll, but a flashback following the “A long time ago” card, and then smash cut to the main title at the end of the flashback, like Rogue One.

Just went through the thread and for a topic titled “box office predictions and expectations” I believe only 3 people in 8 pages have actually made ANY prediction with a definite number attached, and I’m one of them.

You guys gonna put your calls on the line? We’re a few months out, time is getting short…

I think it’s because the episode numbers becoming a prominent part of the marketing and labeling really only happened for the prequels. Before (and after) that point, the focus was less on the episode number (which we know was mostly a gimmick) and more on the title itself.

I’m curious as to whether Empire of Dreams has at least been upscaled. I remember hearing they were working on making as much of that HD as possible, so when it appeared on Amazon Prime I checked it out and it seems to be a straight DVD rip.

Also interesting to get confirmation that the files being used for Star Wars are the digital masters, complete with that weirdly cut-up fanfare over the Lucasfilm logo and the 20th Century Fox logo only appearing on Star Wars. I wonder if they’re only using those for this test, or if that’s going to be what’s rolled out for the rest of us in November. I was pretty curious as to whether they were going to reinstate the logos for the entire OT/PT, or cut them all off entirely. But if this holds through for official launch, it’ll basically just be blu-ray rips.

DrDre said:

I don’t entirely agree this is the case. To some sure, but to many others the disrespect is not in the humiliation, or punitive act against the hero, it is in the fact that they feel it has not been properly motivated or set up. To them it’s like the story telling them, Luke’s different now, deal with it, and if you can’t, that’s your problem.

While harsher than I’d phrase it… that’s basically it. Either you can make that leap, or you can’t.

There’s nothing wrong with you as a viewer or a consumer of entertainment if you can’t, it’s not a personal failing or anything like that. But Luke is different now. He HAS to be different, and maybe he’s now different in a way you don’t like CONCEPTUALLY. And at that point, if you’re already firmly disagreeing with the very notion that he HAS to be different, and even more strongly disagreeing with HOW he’s become different - it’s going to be very hard for any story to keep hold of you, because you’re going to need convincing this idea is justified, and you’re automatically disinclined to buy it. It’s a relationship between movie and viewer that is instantly confrontational. The movie wants you to accept this is how he’s different, and this is why he’s different, and there’s only so much time (even with two and a half hours) to get into how that happened. And you want the movie to convince you that the premise isn’t mean-spirited, or stupid, or capriciously punitive. You want reassurance from the filmmakers that they’re not just doing it to do it, to be disrespectful to this character as a means to make these other characters (that you don’t really like much anyway) stronger. It’s seen as a transaction, not a story. “Oh, so you make my guy (note the possessive) into a big loser so these other people get to be winners at his expense. No thanks.”

There are limits for many viewers as to what “Luke Skywalker” can be, and should represent, and those limits are broken from jump the second The Force Awakens says Luke has disappeared for ten years. Because he’s not around in that movie it’s easy to not wrestle with the idea too much, but The Last Jedi has to dig into why those limits have been transgressed. Viewers willing to accept the idea that “Luke Skywalker” is a vessel for ideas and concepts that don’t line up precisely with what we’d seen in prior movies seem to be enjoying The Last Jedi more than those who essentially reject the notion out of hand.

“Luke wouldn’t do that” is a very strong statement, and definitely a valid one. I think he would, because I think Luke is capable of doing a lot of things depending on what ideas need to be expressed by the writers and creators in charge of the stories he’s in. I get why people would balk at his whole situation in this movie. But I don’t balk at it, and I in fact love what happened because it made him a richer, more interesting, more empathetic, and more lovable character. His failures didn’t ruin him. They eventually made him even greater. That’s inspiring to me. Even good people fall down. That doesn’t make them bad people. It just means they need to work harder at remembering who they can be, and moving back towards that light.

Swazzy said:

If the only way you approach the argument that Luke has been characterized improperly is by saying that the audience is merely blinded by their emotion, insofar as to say they should be ashamed of being impassioned by their connection to the films, the conversation doesn’t last much longer afterwards.

And yet…

I’m not saying the audience is blinded by their emotion, simply that they choose instead to not move past that reaction to the decision having been made at all. This depiction of their fictional hero bothers them very, very much, to the point where their deconstruction of why it doesn’t work goes very, very deep in many ways, some intentional, some unintentional.

It honestly doesn’t need to be justified any farther beyond “I don’t like it, and I don’t like how it happened, I don’t like that it happened, and it bothers me that my fictional hero of choice was written to behave that way.” That’s honest, and true, and there’s not really any counter-argument to it. It’s rooted precisely in how you feel, and you don’t need to justify it beyond that, and you don’t need to respond to people who unfairly ask you to justify it beyond that point, really. If you simply don’t like that Luke Skywalker was put in that position and did the things he did, there’s nothing more anyone can say, honestly. You didn’t like it. There’s not really a way to “fix” that or talk you out of it. I can share why it worked for me, though. But that’s not being done as a means to convince you of your wrongness or anything like that. It’s just part of the conversation, and a desire to be understood.

I enjoyed it a lot. It’s likely I’m inclined to enjoy it, not just because I recognize and empathize with depictions of depression and struggle, and not just because I enjoy watching people figure themselves out and triumph accordingly, but because I don’t really hold these characters as sacred? Star Wars is for messing with. While this whole place was borne out of a notion that disagrees strongly, it’s also a place that has come to nurture and promote that specific notion. Star Wars is for messing with. It’s malleable. You can do things with it, and many of the best things that have happened with the property have happened precisely because people wanted to mess with it, to make the characters do things they otherwise wouldn’t do, and then see how they react, how they grow (or don’t) and what that might say about US, here in the present.

The idea that Luke Skywalker became a depressive old hermit who checked out for a decade because he was so ashamed of himself and angry at losing touch with what made him “a legend” in the first place? That’s not blasphemy to me. That’s interesting. And the way it was done was not just sad, but charming, too. To a lesser extent, a similar thing was done with Thor in Endgame. And to a lesser extent, some of his fans reacted much the same as Luke’s fans have reacted: The decision to do it was, in and of itself, unforgiveable, and so anything built upon that (to them) broken foundation isn’t worth giving over to. All they see is the humiliation and the “disrespect” to such a strong character. They see that as a punitive act against their hero, and they basically just… stop there.

I don’t think it’s disrespectful at its core to do things like that to beloved characters. They’re not people, they’re ideas being explored. And I think if you nail the execution, you’ve almost always managed to make that character even BETTER than they were before. I feel like the Luke Skywalker I saw in The Last Jedi was maybe the best he’s ever been, and it’s certainly the best performance Hamill’s ever given, and it seems messed up to me that he wasn’t seriously considered for a best supporting actor Oscar. But he couldn’t have been that great, I don’t think, if Luke hadn’t been put through those trials and tribulations.

It really does seem as if the people upset that Luke is like this in the story are judging him (and his creators/performers) as harshly as LUKE HIMSELF is IN the story. Only the difference is that Luke learns to allow himself empathy, sympathy, and forgiveness, whereas some of his fans aren’t willing to go that far.

There’s a legitimate anger that this fictional hero was shown to be flawed again, and none of those folks wants to forgive that. People seem to prefer INVALIDATING it entirely, rather than simply disagreeing with it. “Luke makes ONE mistake,” you say. Sure. I’d say he probably makes a bunch of little ones on the way to that big one, much like many relationships don’t fail because of the one big act-out, but the tiny trail of screw-ups that led to it. But even if we account for the idea he only made the one mistake, which was sensing Ben’s slip to the darkside and responding like “oh no, I have to stop him before he kills everybody” for one second - that mistake was a very big one. And it led to his having an entire building dropped on him while this kid went off and slaughtered half his temple, took a bunch of students with him (suggesting to me he’d been making small mistakes up to that point if Ben could so easily convince those students to swing his way) and joined not only the dark side, but wound up running the First Order. The kid became a homicidal maniac like his grandfather. Did Luke spark that? It’s hard to say no. Is Luke responsible for that reaction? A little. But it’s not like Ben Solo is a wind-up toy. He could have chosen, at any point along the way, to stop fighting the light and allow himself the forgiveness and empathy he keeps denying himself. But he doesn’t. And in a lesser, but still hurtful way, neither does Luke. Neither did Anakin. It’s a Skywalker thing, apparently. A stubborn, hurtful, unneccessary Skywalker thing.

Imagine the indignation you have at the idea of your hero failing despite your not wanting him to fail, not imagining he could even do it, and knowing how frustrating and helpless it would make you feel, to have your notions of greatness bruised and even broken. Now imagine you’re the hero. The guy who actually MESSED UP. The man who understands what that pressure means, and still broke under it despite your best efforts, you know for a fact that screw up cost untold number of horrors and deaths. You’d be upset, right? You’d be unforgiving. You’d be angry and disappointed. You’d be, funnily enough, in the exact same headspace Luke is in for much of The Last Jedi.

And by the end of the movie, Luke comes around. But many of his fans can’t. They’re still focused on the failure, and the unfairness of it having happened AT ALL, and that focus prevents them from going on Luke’s journey. The whole thing is forgone because it’s flat out illegitimate, to them. In a way, they never got off Ahch-To island. Their resentment and disgust with Luke is keeping them there, just like it kept HIM there. It prevents them from joining him as he projects his way to Crait for the most impressive single act of Force mastery in all the films.

The Last Jedi is a great empathy test, honestly. It asks the audience how willing they are to forgive people, to look for the good in people despite their biggest flaws. Can you recognize the potential in people, greater and lesser, accomplished and inexeprienced? Can you give part of yourself to those people despite all that, because you know there’s more to them than their failings? It’s not really a bad thing if you can’t do it for all the characters, either. Or that you’re willing to offer more of that empathy and sympathy to Poe, or Rose, than you are to Kylo, or Luke. But the movie takes great care to explain why these people are all acting like this, even if you don’t agree with the actions themselves.

It’s one of the more stubborn contradictions in the myriad responses to The Last Jedi that the people least willing to go where the film wants to go are fans of the man who best embodies the full emotional/mythological journey the film takes.

DominicCobb said:

@Broom Kid

Has anything further come from this project, or are there any other similar projects? At this point a 35mm fan-preservation in 1080 is, for me, the OriginalTrilogy holy grail, simply because I think Star Wars will eventually get a hi-def official release at some point, but it’s no guarantee THX 1138 will ever be restored to what it was, and I’d love to be able to put that original version of this movie on in a resolution better than Laserdisc.

DrDre said:

I disagree. To me watching Luke rise above himself only to be kicked back in the dirt, or watching the rebels beating the Empire only to have it all destroyed with a blast from a super weapon to have to do it all over again, or watch Han become a responsible leader, only to then abandon his friends and family, and become a smuggler again, is not all that satisfying. It may be satisfying in the moment, but in the long run it seems pretty pointless.

I don’t think the presentation of perserverance and goodness in the face of oppression and hardship is pointless. Wins don’t lose value simply because losses might follow. Championships still count even if the team ends up sucking 15 years later. All the good things a person did in their life don’t suddenly disappear when they die. But again, that’s kind of the philosophical divide I think we keep butting up against here: There’s a sense of score-keeping being applied to the OT characters in the ST, that certain things just shouldn’t have happened because look at this record! Look at X, Y, and Z, now you’re telling me all that grinding and leveling up doesn’t matter - and now this person over here that only JUST started playing gets a fully loaded sheet? There’s almost a gamification being applied to the story and I just don’t look at character or story in that way, and I don’t think characters in fiction are best served by keeping them boxed in.

If you only focus on the fact a failure happened at all, and not on the way everyone rose above that failure, (Everyone - the new characters too - that they’re learning from the past as well as learning on their own isn’t a negative thing, I don’t think) then it feels to me like you’re willfully missing the point. If you refuse to accept that a failure could have happened in the first place, you’re not meeting the story on its own level. And of course a failure could have happened. It’s not out of bounds, it’s not out of the question. I believe that stories work because they have the freedom to examine those sorts of scenarios. “What if a hero never truly reckoned with his own insecurities and succumbed to depression after a preventable tragedy?” I understand the knee-jerk response of “That would suck and I wouldn’t like that” but that’s a starting point, not the final answer. You can do things with fictional characters that you’d never want to see in real life, and the inspiration comes in showing ways out of that darkness. I understand the impulse to say “but they should never go into the darkness in the first place” and you’re right to feel that way, but I don’t think that makes for affecting drama or potent myth, either.

edit: completely off topic, but I want to say I’m a big fan of your color grading work on the fan preservations and I seriously cannot wait for you to finish that work and see it applied to the OT. It’s amazing stuff and I’m very appreciative. Thank you for dedicating so much time and energy to it.