Broom Kid

doubleofive said:

If Lucasfilm continues to have to go to fan restorations they found on YouTube over actually restoring the film, then there’s something wrong there. Film history is being ignored because fans posted clips somewhere? What if they accidentally use Revisited or any of the other fan edits that are right next to it online? Why would they know to reference Legacy if they didn’t have Legacy on hand?

Film History isn’t being ignored. There’s a considerable difference between a film being restored or preserved and a film being sold on a home video format of choice. One is a question of preservation, the other is a question of consumerism. You may ask “well what good is preservation if I can’t buy a copy of it at the store” and I get that question, but film history isn’t being ignored, and the original version of Star Wars isn’t going to disappear from history because it wasn’t pressed onto 4k UHD disc.

I would suggest we’re seeing that screencap used in that book because the book is low-priority tie-in merch handled by an outside company and editorial oversight isn’t as stringent as it was for Rinzler’s books. That’s similar to CNN’s docu-series having someone use a clip from Despecialized. These sorts of discrepancies happen frequently at many other companies, too - video game companies using google searches for material instead of going into their own archives is an example off the top of my head. Lucasfilm/Disney isn’t necessarily immune to such things.

They’d still have to do the other two, though. And at that point, why wouldn’t they just do all three? Especially since they already have access to the material they need in a higher quality than theatrical release prints.

If I’m wrong, I’ll be happy to be wrong, because it means the original versions finally got a proper home theater release, no matter what. Although I’m certain there’ll be something that jumps out at the eagle-eyes among us that necessitates further fan-restoration is needed. But at least at that point we’d be working from a very high-quality 4k source to make whatever changes need to be made.

But I don’t see Lucasfilm releasing the original versions and using Verta’s fan-restoration as part of them.

DrDre said:

I don’t really agree, since Lucas is more than just "a previous storyteller, and I think the creator of this universe has a special place. In other words if major changes are made to the context of his story, I think he should be oke with it.

I value the story’s quality over the hypothetical hurt feelings of one of its previous contributors. I don’t understand the unnecessary complicating of enjoying the story itself by introducing this metatextual and behind-the-scenes drama to the proceedings and then hinging your ability to enjoy what happened to it. There’s no reason for me to put that skin in the game, I don’t get anything extra by doing so.

The second he sold the whole thing for four billion to a completely separate corporate entity, his feelings became a tertiary concern at best. It speaks well to people at Lucasfilm that they’re still involving him, despite prior complications and hurt feelings. But if he’s fine enough with still hanging around and helping when they ask, that should probably be all there is to it from my perspective.

Again: That’s part of why stories are so amazing. Their malleability, their freedom to change shape in order to get across the ideas and feelings of the people telling them. That’s a huge part of why the fan edit community has such an important place here, too. The consideration for other creator’s feelings isn’t taken into account too much, and I don’t know that it should be, because the aim isn’t to make prior creators thrilled or happy, it’s to try and figure out how to make the story work to express the ideas YOU want it to.

If they’re taking screenshots from Vimeo previews for their books, how is that a sign of anything deeper or more troubling? Deeper or more troubling than what? It’s a tie-in book that probably won’t really sell a whole lot to anyone who isn’t already a superfan. What signs are you seeing in the decision by an editor or graphic designer to use a frame from a Vimeo screencap that are so troubling?

“If they have any interest in releasing the OOT, then it’s not totally improbable that they would use Legacy in some capacity.”

I don’t know, I find it pretty close to totally improbable. Again, setting Verta’s pitching & public speaking abilities to the side - the only real time his project could be all that viable was when there were budget constraints applied to the release of the original versions on home video, where his fan-restoration would be considered as a legitimate alternative due to the cost savings.

But with those constraints removed, you’d have to suggest that a home video release of the original versions, the first since 2006 (when budgetary restrictions were in place) would be a licensed version of a fan-restoration created from theatrical release prints when Disney itself, again, owners of some of the finest film restoration technology in the industry, has access to not only the Reliance 4K re-scan and remastering of the 1997 SE negatives, but the original film elements necessary to re-create a theatrical version if they so chose.

I just don’t see it. Especially since they’d have to go to the effort and energy to create their own restorations of Empire and Jedi anyway, since Verta’s Legacy project only applies to the first movie, and there’s no way they’re only doing an original theatrical version of Star Wars for this still-hypothetical original versions release, and forgoing Empire and Jedi as well. If they’re going to do their own versions of Empire and Jedi, why wouldn’t they just do Star Wars as well. Not just for the sake of uniformity, but because there is no doubt whatever they’d do in-house would be better than even the best of Verta’s efforts.

The acquisition of Fox has nothing to do with whether originals can or should be released. I understand why that’s become part of the narrative over the years, but it’s never at any point been a hindrance or a roadblock to the original versions being released. Fox still owned distribution rights the last time it happened, for example.

The question of “playing nice” with another company has never really been a question because Fox had never NOT played nice.

I do think the Skywalker Saga box set is maybe the best chance we’ve had SINCE 2006 for a legitimate home theater release of the originals, though, and if ever there was a time I’d suggest that it’s okay to maybe sort of get your hopes up, it’s now. But I also don’t think whatever the original versions on those disks will be, will have anything to do with Mike Verta’s fan-restoration.

I think the question of “respect” for prior entries is kind of academic, or at least beside the point, much in the same way that authorial intent is mostly for nitpicking arguments after the fact and not really relevant to the actual consumption of the art in question.

If the story works and is given punch and emotional import as a result of recontextualizing (whether that recontextualizing is “disrespectful” or not) then that’s a positive, so far as I’m concerned. James Cameron recontextualizing the xenomorph as a giant bug colony could be argued as a “disrespectful” move considering the lovecraftian origins and nature of the creature in Alien, but most people don’t really pursue that line of thought because it doesn’t really matter whether it was or not when you’re watching the movie. Does that storytelling decision work for the movie? If so, then it’s a good call.

If the “Prophecy of the one who will bring Balance to the Force” ends up being reinterpreted (after being more or less invented as a way to recontextualize the OT in the first place) for the sake of making the Sequel Trilogy better overall, I have no problems with it at all. I don’t really care if it can be read as “disrespectful” to previous storytellers or corporate ownership. That’s not really a concern of mine, especially since I don’t work there, and I’m not one of the creators in question. But if that recontextualization doesn’t work within the story, THEN I have a problem with it.

The prophecy is like any other fictional element being used in the pursuit of expressing thematic ideas through story: If you can change it to make it work for what you’re trying to say, then change it. That’s the whole point of fiction. It’s inherently malleable. So fold, spindle, and mutilate as needed.

I agree that the prophecy’s primary function in the story should have been a criticism (if not an outright condemnation) of the Jedi Order’s myopia.

On a metatextual level, we all 100% know the Chosen One prophecy was just Lucas taking the easiest storytelling route possible to make Anakin “special” in a way that further retconned the end of Return of the Jedi to be Anakin’s ultimate triumph, not Luke’s. But in the text, it could have been (and should have been) used as a means to show how the Jedi had so disappeared up their own ass and taken their eye off the ball that they never saw Anakin coming. That kind of happens, almost by accident, throughout the Prequel’s story being lurched through over the course of the trilogy. But like most good ideas embedded in the Prequels, its never fully realized, and its potential goes unfulfilled.

However, Palpatine’s returning doesn’t nullify Anakin’s sacrifice, even if it muddies the ultimate “truth” of the Prophecy. I think proving the prophecy to be somewhat bullshit isn’t even a bad thing, honestly. Prophecies suck in general, and are rarely used well in a story. Their best uses come as punchlines to tragic jokes. But Anakin’s sacrifice doesn’t cease to have meaning if Palpatine somehow survived for 30 years. The Sith were still wiped out for all intents and purposes (at least they didn’t wait a millennia before popping their head back up this time) balance to the force was more or less established, and the galaxy sustained a measure of peace for about 30 years. That’s pretty good for Star Wars. Of course, all of that is secondary to Anakin saving his kid, which is the real emotional and storytelling thrust of Return of the Jedi, and that thrust isn’t dulled or cut short by Palpatine’s reappearance in The Rise of Skywalker. Anakin still saved his kid. That hasn’t changed.

It’s always a possibility that Anakin, or his spirit, rather, will still show up at the end of this movie to assist in Palpatine’s final removal from the galaxy. At which point the prophecy is still accurate.

I very much doubt that they’re using Legacy.

Legacy’s best bet at being legitimized by Lucasfilm was pre-sale, when Lucasfilm wasn’t interested in spending too much money, and wasn’t really wishing to allocate much budget to original version pursuits. In that atmosphere, a freelance film restorer making a pitch that he’ll do the work at a low cost for them is attractive. This ignores, however, that Reliance was already contracted for (and delivered) their own 4k restoration of the 1997 SE negatives (which were then updated to replicate the 2011 blu-ray versions) shortly before the sale was completed.

Post-sale to Disney? Theres’ no reason for Disney to entertain the same pitch, because not only do they already own all the elements they’d need to restore the original versions, but they have access to some of the finest (if not THE finest) technical facilities for film restoration in the business currently, and have no budgetary issues, self-imposed or otherwise, to worry about when it comes to that restoration. I don’t see a possibility existing where Verta, on his own, could create a salable product that could compete with what Disney could do in-house, much less Disney choosing to forgo their own in-house work for Verta’s.

edit: Whoever is making that twitter thread is being pretty irresponsible w/ their speculation there. I can understand WANTING it to be evidence that LFL is using SW Legacy. But it honestly doesn’t make sense to extrapolate from those two shots in a tie-in book that Legacy is now official product.

I think there’s something to also be said for the consistent fracturing of attention spans through unprecedented media access and entertainment options just automatically diluting potential audience excitement. There’s a reason adjusting for inflation is practically useless, and that reason only gets ever more solidified with every year we move forward. The competition for moviegoing dollars only ever gets more heated. In the 80s it was the rental market. In the 90s it was Cable. In the 00s it was the internet. And now, on the verge of heading into the 2020s, we’re literally in a space where people with a gopro and a green-screen are getting better “ratings” than network television on their own DIY YouTube channels or Twitch streams. The fact there’s an entire multi-billion dollar internet-only platform whose primary dedication is to watching other people play video games, where you can spend money you might otherwise be spending on a movie ticket for access to custom emojis that you can spam in the chat-window next to the live-stream of someone struggling through Fortnite?

We live in a very weird time with a glut of entertainment options, many of which (including most social media, which has ceased being a supplement to life, but is supplanting the actual living of it) cast YOU as the star. Movies are making more money than ever before, but they almost have to, because if they don’t, the whole industry will collapse and become part of at least 2 or 3 other industries as not much more than a bonus-feature to their primary appeal.

If, in that scenario, Star Wars isn’t as earth-shatteringly exciting and alluring to audiences, I wouldn’t be (and am not) surprised. It’s not the 80s, or even the 90s. And honestly, I don’t think it’s a bad thing.

I think the last chapter of the Skywalker Saga is going to make a ton of money (more domestic than abroad, but still) and then we’ll see as the entire market shifts and tilts in new directions to adjust for the fracturing and splintering of attention spans even further. And if Star Wars becomes a secondary (or even tertiary) concern at the box-office from that point forward, I’m pretty fine with it. Being a Star Wars fan has always sorta/kinda been like rooting for the Dallas Cowboys or the New York Yankees anyway, to be honest. It’s what’s made people act like they’re special for being a Star Wars fan seem weird, to me. “Oh, congrats, you’re a super-big fan of like, the most popular things ever made for theaters. How unique.” If people are somehow made to focus less on all the CULTURAL IMPORTANCE and BOX OFFICE SIGNIFICANCE and THE POWER OF MYTH and instead have to simply reckon with the movies AS movies, without hanging a bunch of historical weight on everything Star Wars-related… that’s not really a bad thing, I don’t think.

Anyway, I’m revising my domestic total up to $735 mil.

SleepyBear said:

Somebody get these.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/STAR-WARS-Empire-Strikes-Back-35mm-Film-Print-Movie-TV-TRAILER-Scope-WORKPRINTS/254392308894?hash=item3b3af6949e:g:6ZQAAOSwMWddfdQk#viTabs_0

If I’m reading the description correctly - he’s charging 1200 bucks for two 30 second TRAILERS. Not a print of the movie. $600 per trailer, 2 trailers total, basically.

Does anyone think watching Agents of SHIELD led to increased attendance for Marvel movies? Or had any effect on that attendance at all?

According to this Q&A with Phil Tippett, Pepsi’s $3 billion merchandising contract was contingent on Lucas agreeing to direct all three movies.

http://www.movies.com/movie-news/phil-tippett-star-wars/4324

Yeah, I got the general sentiment of that breakdown but the idea that “The prequels are substance without excitement” doesn’t hold up to too much scrutiny. There isn’t really a lot of substance there. There COULD have been, but Lucas wasn’t interested in working his material until it coalesced. All three of his prequel scripts were messes (Attack of the Clones wasn’t even finished when they started shooting, and by “finished” I’m pretty sure that meant “second draft”)

Unformed sketches of larger ideas aren’t the same as substance. BUT: I get what that saying is going for. I think it’s more accurate to say

Original Trilogy: Fun myth
Prequel Trilogy: Boring backstory
Sequel Trilogy: Eager Remix

RogueLeader said:

This is why I think studios listening to fans can sometimes be a problem.

Listening to fans is basically never good. Studios shouldn’t really do it at all, honestly. If you can’t trust the filmmakers you hire to make a movie without bringing up the comments section to backseat drive, you’re always going to end up with compromised storytelling. Well, compromised beyond what happens to it beyond normal storytelling.

If you make a great movie, you’ll have fans. If you aim your movie AT fans, you’re almost always going to sacrifice any potential for greatness. It’s limiting. It’s the difference between Quentin Tarantino’s career and Kevin Smith’s.

If it’s a question of whether anything you just saw in Star Wars was planned before they started making the movie you’re watching, the answer is almost always no.

Also: Bendemption is definitely happening. That was a foregone conclusion the second we found out Palpatine was back.

But Reylo isn’t gonna happen. Not unless you so heavily dilute what Reylo is until it basically just means “Kylo is nice to Rey once and helps her.” But there’s nothing romantic happening between the two.

act on instinct said:

Nailed it, the slapdash retroactive structuring with little coherence and all convenience.

That’s basically Star Wars. Since around 1980 forward.

I think it’s probably a combination of the novelization and the Star Wars Storybook, which had images taken from those deleted scenes in it.

https://twitter.com/tomscioli/status/979132076501950465

:shrug:

Again, I apologize for any rankling or wrinkling. I’m not gonna go overtime to convince anyone of what’s pretty clearly obvious. If people are nervous because what’s happening here is technically illegal, I get it. But I’m also pretty sure none of the methods being used to “protect” anyone is actually protecting anything. If it gives the people here peace of mind to believe the people in charge at Lucasfilm/Fox/Disney don’t know exactly what’s going on and haven’t been lurking this place for the past 20 years, then it’s not my place to try and disrupt it. I apologize for speaking out of turn earlier, and it won’t happen again.

It’s literally not a risk. There’s no risk.

Everyone knows we’re here and what we’re doing here. It’s not secret and nobody’s gotten fooled. If we were all going to be sued into oblivion it would have happened by now. We’re not important enough to go after, and likely never will be. We’re the only people that care and there’s not enough of us to pose any financial threat.

Which makes it extra weird to see a release get announced and watch the rain of PM requests and questions, 15+ years after the place was any sort of viable destination, as to what and how MySpleen works. I don’t know why pointing out that two of the most successful editors have decided on their own that these weird traditions are worth abandoning is supposed to make me rethink my initial post. It seems to be more a point in my favor, if anything.

Anyway, just a thought that I’d had for a while that sprang to mind after seeing that one post. Sorry for any rankles or wrinkles.

I understand the history this place has with myspleen, and the ease of use for people who have been here for years, but it’s long since past time for people to stop releasing things there. It’s a hindrance and an annoyance more than anything.

I also think the general sense of paranoia about links and such should be dialed back, too. It’s beyond obvious, after about 20-plus years, that Lucasfilm is never going to come after this place, or Harmy, or Adywan, or Hal, or anyone else who has gotten any sort of notice for messing with Star Wars. So long as you’re not trying to make money off any of these projects, fan-restorations and fan-edits are too limited in scope and audience to pose any sort of legitimate threat to any revenue stream.

He decides to be in charge of the First Order the second he decides he’s going to kill Snoke. Which happens before he gives that ‘let the past die’ speech. The past he’s talking about doesn’t include the First Order, because that’s his present.

The First Order is the new order he’s talking about. He’s already part of it, and now he’s running it. He wants her to join him so they can run it together.

FreezingTNT2 said:

There’s a deepfake video of Tarkin.

What I like about it: It does flatten out the lighting, which makes him look more natural. ILM went all in on subsurface scattering (I think that’s what you call it) and half the time Tarkin looks like a faintly glowing bruise under a flashlight instead of a sallow-faced person.

What I don’t like is that when you deep-fake a CGI creation, the mouth still doesn’t work, because the base you’re working from is fundamentally wrong. So you have the images of a real person trying to match the incorrect mouth movements of a digital recreation of that person. The deep-fakes of Carrie Fisher over CGI Leia have the same problem. Leia may look a little more realistic (only a little) and then she mouths the word “Hope” and suddenly she’s an effect.

I think cutting around Tarkin is a step sideways, at best. It doesn’t really improve things, because the conspicuousness of not seeing him calls just as much attention and pulls you out of the film just as much as watching his mouth not work right. Either way you’re drawn to him not as an organic part of the scene, but this artificially introduced distraction. It’s just a different sort of distraction when you’re constantly cutting around him.

I think the Tarkin effect is much better than Leia’s, though. Leia shouldn’t have seen in Rogue One. It doesn’t make any sense from a story perspective, and the execution didn’t make up the balance.

I’ve always thought that not only was Leia’s digital recreation not ready for prime-time, but from a dramatic standpoint, it was a really poor decision. George Lucas spent almost all of the beginning of Star Wars hiding her for a reason, which is basically undone with its direct prequel showing a weirdly emoting digital version of her just before the movie starts. Plus, the sort of hope Leia had in Star Wars isn’t the kind that looks all moony eyed and gently smiling. She’s harried and pissed off basically the entire movie. She should be determined and serious on that bridge. Not quietly pleased.

Really, the most we should have seen is the back of her on the bridge. The doors closing on her should have been the iris out, and it should have been underscored with Leia’s theme, not the Force theme.

The only real problems with digital Tarkin are the lighting (he’s a little TOO translucent and starkly lit, he should be flatter) and the way his mouth moves unnaturally. I don’t understand why they didn’t just keep the original actor’s mouth so they didn’t have to worry about animating that part incorrectly. I don’t know if a fan-project could figure out a way to fix the mouth movements, but if someone does, that effect will be essentially flawless.

Apologies if I missed it, but I keep seeing references to low and high bitrate versions of this amazing (and exhaustive) project but no specifications as to what the bitrates are?

How ‘low’ is the “Low bitrate” version? Are the “low bitrate” versions in the 8-10 gigs per film range?