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Broom Kid

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3-Sep-2019
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20-Jan-2020
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Post
#1320881
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

There’s already a ton of lines, plus the music, plus the editing, plus the visual information, that show the audience that his run isn’t going to work.

The movie is also asking you to remember what a “successful” suicide run would look like - i.e. the beginning of the movie, where Rose’s sister died helping destroy the dreadnought, but that destruction didn’t actually help the resistance, and in fact hurt it immensely. A lot of the same visual and audio cues are there in Finn’s run, and the movie is hoping you’ll remember that, and remember that it ended up being a bad idea, poorly executed, that wasn’t worth the cost.

So you’ve got:

Poe saying they need to get to the cannon
Poe saying it won’t work once the cannon is charged
The AT-AT’s killing everything on the way to the cannon.
The cannon visibly being charged
Finn angrily waving everyone off for the sake of not letting them win (despite the fact they’re going to win even if he does blow up the cannon)
Poe saying the cannon is charged and it’s not going to work
Rose saying it’s not going to work
The ship, which was introduced as being a rattletrap hunk of trash, literally melting and falling apart the closer it gets
The rapid cutting showing how quickly it’s melting the closer it gets.
The music rising and getting more desperate/despairing the closer he gets.

here’s another question - since most of the criticism is coming from an “In the moment” POV, what do you think happens AFTER this scene, where Finn kills himself flying his speeder into the cannon - or the ship fails out and just smashes into the front of it, or goes in and explodes, and now the front of the cannon is blackened/charred but still spinning, or the cannon actually explodes and takes out a couple AT-AT’s on either side but there are still a bunch of walkers and Kylo’s ship (a larger version of which we just saw with the Holdo maneuver) - and the ability to call for reinforcements to just bring another one of those things down and continue the siege: What’s the story after this point? What is happening after the momentary “Yes, Finn is the suicidal hero like Paige was” that is adding to the overarching themes of the story? Why, after seeing two not particularly successful suicide missions complete themselves already in this movie, would the third time be the charm especially considering the tons of evidence being spoken/shown/heard that it 100% wouldn’t work and would be easily the least successful suicide mission of the film, and how would it’s hypothetical “working” make this movie’s aims and thematic strengths stronger than if Finn is stopped?

That scene isn’t happening in a vaccuum, and I don’t know how much more clear the movie needs to be about communicating the futility of Finn’s intent. The scene only works because of it’s obviously tragic nature: He’s going to kill himself, it’s not going to matter, and it’s a damn shame. You empathize with him, you understand why he’s doing it, but you know it’s doomed to fail. Nothing in the sequence there is suggesting his potential success (which isn’t even really a potential outcome at all) will benefit anyone.

Post
#1320759
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

I understand why they postponed the release of the Art book (probably to tie-in better to the big blu-ray/4k/home video launch of the movie) but at this point I feel like they should just ship it now. I’m not even really going out of my way to find leaks and scans and I feel like I’ve already read it twice based on how prevalent the images are, haha.

Post
#1320750
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

I think it’s definitely safe to say then, that what Burnett read on YouTube is 100% what Trevorrow was looking to make before that Jack Thorne draft came in, and then he left/got fired. If the only thing he’s commented on is that stuff in the art book isn’t referring to his drafts, and is no-commenting THE ACTUAL DRAFTS, especially considering how quick he was to deny credit for the Jack Thorne draft…

Episode IX: Duel of the Fates was almost the last chapter in the Skywalker Saga. Pretty crazy.

Speaking of YouTube - I almost checked out that MauLer guy, after seeing someone on another forum I visit link to a funny back and forth on his twitter and going “oh yeah, he’s a youtuber, the Original Trilogy guys seemed to vouch for him.” So I followed the link and looked at his profile and… He basically just stalks some other YouTuber called “MovieBob” and a critic named Patrick H. Willems. That seems to be the last two straight weeks of his twitter feed, at least. I scrolled down for awhile and he’s just making fun of “MovieBob’s” weight and Willems’ intelligence and screencapping tweets by a YouTuber named Jenny Nicholson, who I guess has already blocked him. I know I got called out earlier for “judging a book by its cover” but it really seems like he’s a pretty toxic media personality, to me. Nothing but personal attacks on other people and angry tweets about people not liking things the way he wants people to like them.

But I guess liking things and focusing on the things you like don’t get your Patreon numbers where they need to be…

Post
#1320503
Topic
Rumor: COUNTDOWN to The Rise of Skywalker EXTENDED CUT - * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

That’s not a Disney thing, really - that sort of thing almost never happens at any studio. And if it does, it only happens DECADES later.

Part of the reason “The Beginning” was so remarkable back in 2001 was because people DIDN’T do that for new movies. And Lucasfilm never really did it again, either. And “The Beginning” was still somewhat sanitized.

People love behind-the-scenes drama - but the people who have to still work in the industry once the drama is over don’t love it very much, and they don’t love having a salable version of it available at will for consumers to memorize, either. So those sorts of “warts ‘n’ all” documentaries and tell-alls are for later, when that effect diminished, and there’s a lot of distance accumulated.

it’s not a question of Disney trying to appear squeaky clean, it’s more that nobody wants their dirty laundry from work aired out like that.

Post
#1320468
Topic
Rumor: COUNTDOWN to The Rise of Skywalker EXTENDED CUT - * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

No, he was specifically talking about the Rose/Leia stuff.

He gave the initial interview, and people got upset because he made it sound like Rose lost screentime because of Leia’s VFX work.

Then he gave the clarificaton, which didn’t actually make anyone less upset, because he basically said they didn’t even give her those scenes to shoot with “Leia” in the first place, they cut them at the script stage.

Post
#1320369
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

idir_hh said:

They wanted a Hollywood reboot, hence JJ Abrams.

Star Wars has never not been Hollywood, though. They’ve always been major studio releases.

The notion that they were ever “independent” films in any way has always been back-patting exaggeration on Lucas’ part more than anything. They all went through the studios, they were made to appeal to all four quadrants, the budgets only ever got bigger and bigger… they’re the definition of Hollywood. The last movie Lucas made that was at all difficult or in any way “indie”… was the first movie he ever made. Everything after that was Hollywood as hell, and unapologetically so.

The big difference is that Hollywood got better at making his movies than he did. Which is what always happens. New sets of shoulders to stand on, and then the next guy stands on THOSE shoulders, so on and so on.

Post
#1319813
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

I know why it’s goofy and dumb, I’m not arguing that it isn’t. I’m saying that the tides aren’t really one of those reasons. The tides aren’t going to shift what’s essentially a small city that fell out of the sky and embedded itself in the ocean floor. I hadn’t heard that particular complaint before, is all.

I’m sorry, I will just never agree with this. On a fundamental I believe it would be antithetical to the core heart of the series. I could say more but that is really what it comes down to.

“Always with you it cannot be done… you must UNLEARNNN”

Kylo being bad and staying that way isn’t antithetical to Star Wars at all, I don’t feel. The “core heart” of the series isn’t so inextricably tied up in redeeming its worst villains. In fact, it can be easily argued that pursuing that particular theme has led to 5 of its most disappointing entries.

Post
#1319805
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

I don’t think it’s unthinkable at all. And honestly, it’s a good thing for a movie to deal with, in these times specifically.

Also, honestly, “Star Wars’ bones” could do with some breaking and re-setting. The idea that the only path to hope and optimism in a Star Wars story lies in redeeming its villain seems really reductive and narrow, to me. That closes down so many storytelling possibilities that can still be hopeful and optimistic. The trick is not automatically deciding to center so much of your story’s weight and emotional drive on the bad guy at the expense of literally everyone else in the story.

It’s certainly not in Star Wars’ bones to do that. It didn’t happen in the first two films of the series, for example. The two that most people still tend to consider its best entries.

Telling a story about what you do when someone in your family doesn’t want to be saved and won’t let you help is just as powerful, meaningful, and useful to kids as teaching them to have the hope and optimism to try in the first place.

Not every attempt is going to be rewarded. And the lack of reward doesn’t mean everything that came before was in vain.

I still think that was a valid storytelling avenue. They could have gone down that path. If the only reason to close that path is basic dogma, I disagree with it. Star Wars is what it needs to be at the time it’s being made and coming out. It’s a reinterpretation of classic myths. It isn’t one in and of itself. It needs the freedom to riff and vary on different mythological aspects.

Kylo’s redemption shouldn’t have been a fait accompli in the writer’s room, and that it was is probably a big part of why the film is so unsatisfying.

Post
#1319799
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Also, it never occurred to me that anyone would see the entire front half of the Death Star sunk into an ocean and think the tides would somehow be MOVING it. It’s not floating ON the water, and I can’t imagine the tides are so strong that it’s being pushed across the bottom of the sea floor, either.

The dagger is goofy and dumb, but to suggest it’s goofy and dumb because the Death Star would have moved in the meantime doesn’t really make any sense. It’s not like a lightweight piece of detritus. It’s the entire front half of a moon-sized battlestation. It’s not going anywhere because the tides are a little choppy.

Post
#1319796
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

I don’t know, I think “Kylo Ren is the big bad of the third movie” was just as valid a road to go down as “Kylo Ren gets redeemed” - keep in mind that the concrete notion of “Star Wars is a story of redemption” was more or less retconned into the meta-myth about its creation by a typically unreliable narrator (George Lucas) and the Prequel Trilogy only really exists to canonize that interpretation and sorta/kinda justify Anakin’s actions - which is not a great choice.

Considering Abrams’ predilections for hewing closest to the OT in terms of tone and storytelling notions - the idea of the story being ABOUT redemption doesn’t really track with what the OT story WAS about. Vader was redeemed (ish) in that trilogy, but the series wasn’t ABOUT his redemption. It was about Luke fulfilling his journey to become a Jedi and save the galaxy from tyrannical evil. Vader turning back to the light was more like his own reward for fulfilling that goal, not the overriding thrust of the story up to that point.

So insisting that Kylo Ren HAS to be redeemed because “that’s Star Wars” rings false, to me. Vader didn’t HAVE to be redeemed until somewhere about the halfway point of the last movie in the OT. And really, that option didn’t even exist until Lucas decided that the best possible cliffhanger to keep his trilogy viable would be to spring “I am your father” on the story out of nowhere, with no setup or prior lead-up to that moment in either movie to that point. Vader’s redemption was never the point, but that it still works is a testament to how good at their jobs everyone was at the time they were figuring out how to un-knot all these story elements for a happy ending.

But with Kylo - I feel like there are absolutely ways to tell a Star Wars story where the bad guy doesn’t get redeemed, where his tragic, misguided actions serve as an object lesson on what not to do and how not to be all by themselves, without the absolution of forgiveness and redemption layered over the top of them.

Granted, they didn’t take that route, and that’s fine. I wish they’d executed the redemption WAY better than they did - but I don’t agree that an ending where he’s the bad guy, and dies the bad guy, is fundamentally anti-Star Wars, or invalid on its face, either.

Post
#1319788
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Considering how quickly Trevorrow appeared to debunk the first time one of his drafts leaked (and then it turned out he was being squirrelly, because the script in question wasn’t his it was Jack Thorne’s, but he WAS supposed to direct it before he left the project) it seems like if this isn’t real, he’ll be piping up pretty soon to say so.

If he doesn’t…

Post
#1319741
Topic
Small details that took you <em><strong>FOREVER</strong></em> to notice in the <em>Star Wars</em> films
Time

You don’t have to turn your brain off to not think about unimportant things. In fact often the best way TO think is to make sure you’re not distracting yourself unnecessarily by focusing on unimportant/meaningless stuff that doesn’t matter at the expense of putting time and energy into considering other, more important things.

And of course, you have to have your brain on and working in order to even make the decision that something isn’t really worth your time to keep thinking about.

Being discerning is a skill a lot of people don’t really try to learn anymore. Now it’s just a lot of binary solutions being arrived at via external influence. It’s faster that way, and generates more “takes” that result in more responses and that’s the ultimate goal more often than not. Not understanding, not analysis. Content creation and audience reaction.

Put it this way: Thinking MORE, about EVERYTHING, isn’t the same as thinking BETTER, about what MATTERS.

…and that’s why there was probably another garrison on Endor, thanks for coming to my TED talk

Post
#1319621
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

I don’t mind tracking when it’s done decently. I think the Burning Homestead needle-drop was actually very well executed during the Excalibur moment in The Force Awakens.

But my complaint is a quality, not quantity-based complaint. That tracking was not only weirdly out of place (Darth Vader didn’t even DIE in that room, he died in a hangar) and thematically kind of inappropriate (at least Burning Homestead was also scoring the “call to action” moment in the story, so it fit well there) but the way “Darth Vader’s Death” was cut up was just clumsy from a technical level.

Post
#1319568
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

I still don’t understand what the hell the editors were trying to do with that awkward “Darth Vader’s Death” remix.

They could have just left that whole scene completely unscored until Kylo showed up and it would have worked better. Better silence than dragging out the Return of the Jedi 2CD set and chopping it up.

Post
#1319563
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — * <strong>SPOILERS</strong> *
Time

I can hard disagree with the idea this score is mediocre while simultaneously agreeing that the Solo score was good, too. I think the theme Powell wrote for Chewbacca is some of the best Star Wars music ever. Same with Goransson’s theme for The Mandalorian. Powell’s work on Solo is pretty damned amazing, and he was also the MVP of that film. So many moments in that movie only really worked because of his music.

Hoping that Williams gets one last win for Star Wars when the Oscars come around. It’d be a nice gesture, at the very least. And since the Oscars are more about gestures than any real appraisal of talent, even if you DO think it’s a “mediocre” score I’d love to see the nod.

But yeah, there’s so much good stuff going on in Rise of Skywalker’s score.