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Belbucus

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13-Mar-2005
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24-Dec-2017
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Post
#232334
Topic
Info: DC & Faces - Original audio sources (lots of information)
Time
Quote

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Originally posted by: Starkiller
I've given the 70mm recordings a couple of listens and I did not hear any real differences. Can you elaborate as to what you have found? I'd be very interested to know.
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I haven’t really mapped anything out. It’s mostly bolstering the impact of loud bits in the main channels as well as the boom track. The most illustrative example that comes to mind is where Han takes out Vader’s 1st wingman in the trench. In the 6-track, it is accompanied by a deep explosion that emanates primarily from the left channel and the boom channel. This can be heard clearly in the ’93 mix (and was not one of Burtt’s '93 “additions").
Post
#232322
Topic
Info: DC & Faces - Original audio sources (lots of information)
Time
I assume you have read everything here: http://www.davisdvd.com/misc/starwars/ep_dir.htm which seems to be accurate.

I imagine you are still interested in details about the ’85. Nothing documented to pass along, sorry. To be honest, I’m not as familiar with the ’85 as the others. When I did a transfer of the original Dolby Stereo from the CAV P&S Laserdiscs, I used bits of it to patch and fill in a few spots. Aside from the modifications in content, it seems very similar the Dolby Stereo - same overall EQ, same restrictions in dynamics and low end. Based on this, and what I now know from the Ioan Allen article (thanks for that!) my guess is that they used the “limited” LT/RT master as the original source. What is interesting is that the stereo image (at least in the few areas I worked with) is wider - particularly the music, which is why I always thought it was remixed from stems. This now seems highly unlikely based on the information in the Ioan Allen article. It’s certainly possible the wider image was achieved through processing, but it does bear further investigation. Any details you know of, please pass them along!

I’m just finishing up the 70mm “in Theater” vs. ‘93 mix comparison mentioned earlier in this thread, which I will try to make available here. Then I’m back to completing the restoration of Moth3r’s mono mix. Perhaps after that I will take a closer listen to the ’85.
Post
#232320
Topic
1977 70mm Soundtrack Strikes Back (Released)
Time
I am very interested. I'm a bit backed up with other SW projects (as well as real work), but would be happy to do a transfer for now and make it available (Equipment: Nakamichi MR-1 cassette machines, Apogee converters into ProTools.) John (seventiesfilmnut) also sounds like a good contender for the job. Do we know where the tapes currently reside? (Proximity might be a consideration as I am the Eastern US whereas John appears to across the pond.)

One thing I would like to mention to whomever does a transfer. Check and tweak the playback speed of the cassette machine before you transfer - comparing it to any of the commercially available soundtracks (I always use the '93 mix as a speed reference - mainly because it's the one that accompanies the video that most have been sourcing for their projects.)
Post
#230652
Topic
Info: DC & Faces - Original audio sources (lots of information)
Time
THX - Thank you for the detailed reply - sorry it has taken me so long to respond.

I had never seen the article in American Cinematographer. As to my contention regarding the 4-track master, I must defer to you - considering the source. Ioan is a class act and still something of a guru at Dolby, and has never been prone to issuing unsubstantiated information. I still submit that the 70mm and 35mm mixes are distinctly different in many ways including content. There ARE elements in the 6-track that do not exist in the Dolby Stereo version so I assume were not in the original 4-track either. I can only suppose that additional SFX were added during the 70mm dubbing session.

At the risk of contradicting my original post, I also find myself skeptical of one of Mr. Schnuelle’s statements – that the boom channel was simply derived from summing everything and rolling off the top end. Listening to even an “in theater” recording of the 6-track suggests there’s more going on than just added bass across the entire mix. An excerpt from an interview with Mike Minkler, one of the original mixers for Star Wars supports this as well:

(http://mixonline.com/recording/interviews/audio_mike_minkler/index.html),

“…It was a defining moment because of Dolby Stereo. At the same time, it was the birth of baby boom. The 6-track was devised by Steve Katz, who was the Dolby consultant on the show. When we were predubbing reel 1 spaceships, we couldn't get this big thunderous low end that we wanted on the pass-by. We were going to do what we called a “Todd spread” back then, which was to record a left, center and right, and a surround — then fill in channels 2 and 4, the left extra and right extra, with information from these adjacent channels. But Steve said, “What if we used 2 and 4 for boom only, the low-frequency information, and we'll use full-range speakers.” Well, we didn't have them; we had the Altec A4 speakers, and we put low-frequency material in there as much as we could to enhance the spaceships. And every time there was an explosion, there was a sweetener that was cut for those two channels.”

…. the last statement clearly suggesting that they were treating the boom channels selectively, like an LFE. (It should be noted that the 2 boom channels contained the same mono information ((a waste of real estate in some people’s view)). The reason for this decision was that the theaters capable of playing 6 track were all hard wired for Todd-AO – 5 full range screen channels with mono surround. Doubling up the boom channel on channels 2 and 4 allowed for the desired distribution of signal without the need for special wiring, as well as maintaining “backward compatibility”.)

The Baby Boom format (with stereo surround) essentially became the template for 5.1 – five full range channels with one LFE. The 6-track print-masters almost always contained additional LFE information that was not available on the Dolby Stereo mix or the 4-track master, simply because of the technical limitations of the optical release format. Which is why, in the case of pre-5.1 films, the THX Laserdisc Program always extracted their Pro Logic mixes (and later, the 4.1 mixes) from a 6-track source whenever possible. The only reason for sourcing the main channels from a 4-track would be if it were an earlier generation copy - as was apparently the case in Star Wars and Empire. So aside from the generation loss (which is negligible with Dolby A or SR encoded material), I’m still not clear as to why you believe the 4-track by itself represents the optimal source.
Post
#222066
Topic
Info: DC & Faces - Original audio sources (lots of information)
Time
Upon revisiting this post, I was somewhat puzzled by the response from THX where he states the following:

“What's most interesting is the description of how the original 70mm 6-track mix for Star Wars was derived from the 4-track master. This is basically what I had assumed, but was unsure of. What it means to me is that the perceived "holy grail" of the 70mm mix is not that at all, and that for home theater, a mix derived from the 4-track master should, in fact be better. Now we know that the '93 mix combined some of each, with additional effects.”

I re-read the excerpt and can find this stated nowhere. It seems clearly outlined that the basic track for the ’93 mix comes from the 6-track print master only.

I also disagree with the notion that the 70mm and 35mm sourced a common 4-track master for their respective mixes as has been posted elsewhere (I can think of several comparative examples that demonstrate this). It is my guess that both came from common stems, but that the final mixes of each, reflect different choices in presentation.

I am currently cooking up the side-by-side “93 mix vs. 70mm theatrical” audio file that I mentioned previously. After that, I think a similar “original 70mm vs. original 35mm” would be worthwhile, to explore the issue.
Post
#220622
Topic
Info: DC & Faces - Original audio sources (lots of information)
Time

I’ve been following the thread in this section titled: “1977 70mm soundtrack recording” with some interest. I thought this might be a good companion piece

There has been ongoing debate for some time surrounding the audio mixes that accompany the “Definitive Collection” and “Faces” Laserdiscs - with regard to Star Wars in particular. Being quite familiar with the 70mm 6-track mix, it was clear to me from the first audition that this was a matrixed foldown of these elements with some additional sweetening – essentially the point of contention. I recently located an old article that clearly details the sources used for these soundtracks and the process of preparing the mixes. I hope to follow up shortly with an audiofile to offer a side-by-side comparison of the ’93 “Definitive Collection” mix and an audience recording of a 70mm engagement. This should further demonstrate the likeness of the two, as well as offer an opportunity to document the additions for those interested.

The following is an excerpt from an interview in Widescreen Review (as seen in issue Number: 5 September/October 1993 - reprinted with permission. To subscribe, please go to www.widescreenreview.com/subscribe.php) with Dave Schnuelle, whose title was Technical Supervisor For THX Software Certification at the time the 1993 Definitive Collection Laserdiscs were produced.

Widescreen Review: What was entailed in producing the soundtracks for The Star Wars Trilogy?

Dave Schnuelle: The people involved with the original soundtracks thought the print masters were in pretty good shape. But in fact when we put up the three print masters and listened to them we were surprised at how limited Star Wars sounded by today’s standards and The Empire Strikes Back was not that much better. And the one that should have been really good, Return of the Jedi, although it sounded better also sounded limited. So when we checked into it a bit more we found that only the two-track, LtRt (left total/right total) print masters that existed were ones that were limited for the capability of the optical sound track with Dolby A-type noise reduction, which means that the peaks were really cut down quite a bit. Thirty-five mm prints with optical sound tracks using Dolby A-type noise reduction only have 6db headroom. So the print masters made for that purpose were all pretty severely limited compared to, say, the six track 70mm print masters. At that point we decided that we would go back and check the original elements. On Return of the Jedi we knew they were all very good, but on the original two we just weren’t sure. In fact the original 6-track 70mm print master for Star Wars and the four-track master mix for The Empire Strikes Back were in good condition for their time and they were unlimited. So we decided then we needed to go back and do each movie over again, making an unlimited LtRt from the original masters.

Widescreen Review: So you used the original print master elements to make a new LtRt 4-2-4 matrixed encoded Dolby Stereo soundtrack master for each film?

Dave Schnuelle: It is interesting in that it really does show changing technology. For Star Wars we had the print master for the 70mm 6-track prints, and an effects-only master. The mixers found by listening that the best way to proceed was to use the four main tracks from the70mm print master, LCRS (left, center, right, surround), for those channels, and to add some low frequency enhancement (boom) from a separate Effects-only master run in sync. The reason to do this was that at the time of Star Wars (for which the “baby boom” format was invented by Steve Katz) what they did to derive the boom channel was to filter out the bass of the complete mix, containing dialogue, music, and effects, and add it back in as the Left Extra and Right Extra channels. The problem with this approach is seen today to be that boom is being added irrespective of its source—and that could include on dialogue where it is definitely unnatural and on music where the music mixer never balanced it in that way. So today mixers would derive the “boom” channel just from the effects, so that is what was done on re-mastering Star Wars. It is really to make the mix come much closer to contemporary standards.
In addition, there were sound effects present in the foreign editions of Star Wars that weren’t in the English-language original. That’s because the English version came out first, and (sound designer) Ben Burtt continued working after that on sound effects as the various foreign versions were made. So for this re-release, Ben came into the studio with a catalogue of sound effects recorded on a Synclavier and literally “spun them in” to the picture while watching it; kind of editing and mixing it simultaneously. Although a tremendous number of effects were not involved, this was Ben’s chance to re-do what he had learned working further on the film and incorporating it back into the “original.” So the laserdisc release really is definitive in the sense that it has in it what the filmmakers wanted to be there.
For The Empire Strikes Back the best material was the four-track master mix. It was supplemented with “boom” from a sound effects master running along in synchronization, in the same manner as Star Wars. What you must realize is that the perceived low-frequency capability of conventional optical sound tracks is very limited, and what most people remember is the 70mm version. Since the existing Dolby Stereo print masters had to be limited for optical, that means that they sound bass shy much of the time, so this addition should be considered to be really a purist one, getting it to sound more like itself.
Return of the Jedi was easier because the thirteen-track mix “stems” were available, so it was simple to make a new, unlimited print master.

Widescreen Review: Who was the mixer for these transfers?

Dave Schnuelle: The mixers on Star Wars were Ben Burtt and Gary Summers. Ben Burtt was not involved with the other two mixes on these discs. Gary re-mastered the other two films. The mixes that are on these discs are all redone directly from the furthest back material that we had and they were all redone directly to digital. Gary produced an open reel DASH format digital audio master, which was then clone-copied to the D1 video master.

Widescreen Review: So there are differences in the Star Wars soundtrack as compared to the older laserdisc releases, but no change in the soundtrack content of the other two films?

Dave Schnuelle: Yes, that’s right, but it doesn’t mean they all sound the same. Tomlinson Holman was the recording engineer on the Jedi soundtrack which was recorded in the first THX Sound System-equipped dubbing stage. So basically I think that even to the relatively untutored ear it is going to be clear that Jedi sounds better than the other two. And that simply has to do with the fact that technology moves along. I think that Gary Summers who was the mixer on all three of these new mixes did the best job he could to make them sound the same. He didn’t degrade Jedi to make it sound like the other two, but he did as much as he could to the other two to get them up to the level of Jedi.

Post
#175646
Topic
Help Wanted: 1980s ITV Broadcast of Star Wars onto DVD?
Time
I have not posted in awhile but have been corresponding directly with Moth3r in the efforts to restore the best possible version of the monomix of ANH. He suggested that I follow up with you as another source for this audio. I’d be very interested in making arrangements for obtaining a good quality capture. Please let me know what we can do to facilitate this.
Post
#103197
Topic
Help Wanted: an MP3 of the 1.0 mono mix from the pre-ANH projects?
Time
Having trouble searching for this if it is still available. Could you perhaps provide a link? Also, could someone explain the reason for the audio running fast? I understand that it's from a PAL source, but why should there be a speed discrepancy if it was transferred from a PAL deck running at 50cycles - or was this not the case? The reason for asking is that although there are many options available for varispeeding once in the digital domain, they are not entirely transparent, and quality would be better preserved if the issue could be addressed in the analogue world before converting to digital.
Post
#96873
Topic
Idea & Info: The Definitive Stereo Mix
Time

I’m relatively new here and trying to catch up with the overwhelming amount of activity going on in the efforts to produce OT DVD versions.

I expressed in an earlier post my interest in trying to come up with a superior representation of the original mono soundtrack. I wanted to discuss here, my thoughts for what might be the definitive stereo version.

First, let me say that this issue may be have been well addressed already by many who are currently working on the various versions out there, and I by no means assume to diminish their efforts. That said, here are my two cents on the subject.

I think most would agree that the best representation of the stereo track available is from the Definitive or “Faces” edition. Essentially a matrixed fold down of the 6-track mag with some refinement to the LFE or “Baby Boom” channel, plus some very minor sweetening - this mix conveys the impact and dynamics of the original 70mm release better than any other. All that is lacking is the inclusion of a bit of missing dialogue. The 4-track mag sourced for the SE and 2004 DVD version features superior sonics in many ways but the mix was not near as good as the 6-track – even before all the added garbage. It does however provide an excellent source for the missing dialogue. Being 5.1, the bits in question can be lifted quite cleanly from the discreet center channel, timbre matched and dropped into the old mix relatively easily. Which brings up an interesting point. There are two additional lines in the 2004 DVD which were never in any previous issues, yet seem to have been recorded at the time of the original production and were probably always meant to be included. I refer to C3P0’s “We’ve stopped” spoken to R2 inside the sandcrawler, and the stormtrooper’s “No one’s here” after the initial search of the Falcon’s interior aboard the Death Star. In both cases the characters on screen appear to be saying…something. The question is: should these be considered part of the original or not?

I would welcome any and all feed back on this subject as I think I’m going to put a track together and offer it to anyone who is interested (Zion are you listening?)

Post
#96573
Topic
Info & Offer Of Help: Audio Assist
Time
At this stage I will take anything up for offer.

I would also be VERY interested in any information that could lead me closer to the original source for all the various file representations out there - hopefully, to get hold of the analogue source that the initial file came from so I could do the conversion and capture myself. The closer I can get to sourcing the raw analogue, the better the degree to which I can extract detail from it.
Post
#96548
Topic
Info & Offer Of Help: Audio Assist
Time
I think the best plan at this stage is to acquire as many source versions of the mono track as are available, lay them up side by side and attempt to create a composite using the best elements of each.

Currently, I am in possession of one source - from a DVD boot, quite well crafted, with video sourced from the Definitive or "Faces" version and 3 soundtrack options: the 6-track fold down that accompanied the video source, Dolby Stereo matrixed version, and original mono.

Can anybody identify this DVD version for me and pin down which source the mono tracks were culled from?

Thanks

Post
#96446
Topic
Info & Offer Of Help: Audio Assist
Time

First post here.

I am a professional audio engineer and big fan of the one and only Star Wars. The more I see of the tinkering and tampering with the original, the more I feel compelled to be involved in what, ironically seems to becoming “the rebellion against the Empire.”

As my specialty is in restoration and mastering, I would like to contribute my services to any and all involved in the creation of definitive DVD editions.

I would particularly enjoy the opportunity to work on a restoration of any mono track elements floating around, as I have yet to hear a decent version thus far. The Academy Mono screenings I attended sounded about as good as that format could render to my recollection, and the quality of the material on The Making of Star Wars LP gives one a general idea as to how good this track could sound. (I’m sure there is a mag master in existence that will likely never see the light of day.) Most of what’s currently out there seems to be culled from video sources and that may very well be all that is accessible.

Should anyone be interested, now or in the future with this or any endeavor with which I could provide assistance, please feel free to email me directly at phodgson@snet.net. The exchange of audio files is quite easy by email for smaller chunks and by CD/snail mail for large bits. Sampling rates and bit depths should be established and agreed upon at the outset to minimize any unnecessary conversion after the fact, and mp3 conversions should be avoided at all cost.

Post
#96445
Topic
<strong>The &quot;EditDroid&quot; Trilogy DVD Info and Feedback Thread</strong> (Released)
Time
First post here.

I am a professional audio engineer and big fan of the one and only Star Wars. The more I see of the tinkering and tampering with the original, the more I feel compelled to be involved in what, ironically seems to becoming "the rebellion against the Empire."

As my specialty is in restoration and mastering, I would like to contribute my services to any and all involved in the creation of definitive DVD editions.

I would particularly enjoy the opportunity to work on a restoration of any mono track elements floating around, as I have yet to hear a decent version thus far. The Academy Mono screenings I attended sounded about as good as that format could render to my recollection, and the quality of the material on The Making of Star Wars LP gives one a general idea as to how good this track could sound. (I'm sure there is a mag master in existence that will likely never see the light of day.) Most of what's currently out there seems to be culled from video sources and that may very well be all that is accessible.

Should anyone be interested, now or in the future with this or any endeavor with which I could provide assistance, please feel free to email me directly at phodgson@snet.net. The exchange of audio files is quite easy by email for smaller chunks and by CD/snail mail for large bits. Sampling rates and bit depths should be established and agreed upon at the outset to minimize any unnecessary conversion after the fact, and mp3 conversions should be avoided at all cost.