AspiringCreator

Jar Jar Bricks said:

AspiringCreator said:

Sees talk of a V5 I will never be done rewatching TROS apparently. Real talk though, I’ve experienced V4 and overall? This is a marked improvement over V3, in particular, the AI lines. Some are still wonky here and there and definitely with headphones I can hear the shift but it is significantly more seamless. In particular, the Poe lines I criticized before now straight-up just sound like alternate takes they are that scarily good.

In my opinion the only way you notice them is under both of the following conditions:

1. You know exactly what has been changed.
2. You’re watching with headphones on.

I’d say that’s pretty darn good, all things considered. I’ve seen stuff on Disney+ with significantly worse ADR - namely Secret Invasion.

Exactly and to me, that’s the perfect circumstances. When the change I know is there but it’s so seamless that I know if I played the clip for someone on a TV and they had no idea it was a fan-edit and thus I could fool them into thinking it’s an alternate take? It’s been done right.

Sees talk of a V5 I will never be done rewatching TROS apparently. Real talk though, I’ve experienced V4 and overall? This is a marked improvement over V3, in particular, the AI lines. Some are still wonky here and there and definitely with headphones I can hear the shift but it is significantly more seamless. In particular, the Poe lines I criticized before now straight-up just sound like alternate takes they are that scarily good.

2 and 3 work really nicely. There’s still some of that jank but now it’s way less jarring. Like in this case, now it sounds no different from how some films will have those one or two lines that sound off compared to every other piece of dialogue. Easily ignorable for the sake of enjoying the film and most importantly, it sounds a lot more like Poe in the movie and not jarringly clear lines like they were before.

Hal 9000 said:

The Snoke vat is too silly to keep.

Why is he continuing to make Snokes? Why make more than one to begin with? Did Exegol have makeup artists or surgeons that carve up his scars?

Perhaps there might be a compromise in there? Have the Palpatine clone be front and center but maybe have one of the background clones be Snoke? Of course it doesn’t matter either way, leaving the question ambiguous was honestly the best way to go since if the point was he made Snoke then it would’ve made more sense to have a single Snoke clone in a vat and not the pile of them.

That’s a fair point and to be fair, it works now with the tweaks to how the line sounds. I think it’s more a personal preference thing.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

The original AI Kylo line which mentions a clone sounds like 90% there now:

https://youtu.be/_jqCt9AEKIc?si=wNtouPpATk2eFLEx

Since it sounds so close to his other lines we could also replace “What could you… give me?”

As for why this is necessary, I am of the opinion that the vat of clones is easy to miss for a first time viewer. I had to go back and point it out to those watching with me. Also, it’s not really as if Kylo is breaking the fourth wall here and “reading the script”. He’s literally seen the other clones, and can put two and two together to make things clearer for the audience.

That’s significantly better. It matches more with the delivery of the line afterward. That being said? I’m thinking now the clone part is a bit much. I get the thought process but visually the film shows off the clones in a way that’s pretty clear. Maybe you can play around with different wordings like “You’re a ghost from a bygone era.” or “You’re a withered relic.” or maybe use a word like “shell” in place of clone.

RogueLeader said:

I’ve been wanting to experiment with some techniques for voice cloning, so I played around with some new versions of the lines under discussion. I haven’t watched V3 so I can’t recall how they compare to the current ones, but I tried to get it to match as close as possible to the surrounding dialogue.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/15GjpiX28aV-o9IX9cEWnyjWi008w7dFQ

This link includes Leia’s lines and some alternatives, Poe’s monologue, and some experimenting with alternatives for light speed ramming. Since “ramming” doesn’t totally line up with Rey’s mouth movements, I played around with words that rhymed more with slipped. I tried out clipped and slipped. I was thinking, instead of describing what Poe did as just smashing into the ice wall, maybe he clipped through the wall, sort of like how you can clip through video game walls with glitches. So basically, a ship can use hyperspace to clip through objects in real space. I think slipping gives off a similar idea, like slipping through objects in real space. But if your timing isn’t perfect it can damage both your ship and whatever object your passing through. I didn’t replace the full “You can’t light speed skip the Falcon”, just the word, so that is why I have a few different versions. So my tests of that line definitely are not final.

Also, I don’t know if Poe says, “He’s been hiding something for years” in this version, but I honestly think it would be fine to stay as “building something”. The stockpile line makes it clear these are old ships, but his followers are still “building” onto them with the new cannons.

The Kylo line here is definitely far more in line with his tone and audio from the movie. That final delivery in fact almost sounds like it was directly pulled from one of the movies.

The two lines about family are beautiful and also very well done, especially Rey’s where I legit can’t tell it’s an AI. Also the “You are family.” line and the idea of it going where the “A Jedi needs her weapon.” line sits is perfect. I liked what the original was trying to go for but I love how this plays with the elements of the scene and movie more. It’s a perfect response to Rey treating herself as an outsider, it makes Leia’s later line of not being afraid of who she is feel just the slightest bit more impactful and in a way, it adds a new layer to her declaring she’s a Skywalker.

Lightspeed clipping is an interesting bit of phrasing and I like the idea of it being like clipping in a video game. That being said, I do think the ramming line also worked with the lip=sync issues being fairly minor and plus, I kind of like that it in some way highlights that there’s a reason why you can’t do this stuff all the time without just dumping on TLJ’s Holdo maneuver. However honestly both lines still work well.

Honestly you still did a good job. For a concept that sparked my concern, at the very least the lines didn’t have that AI jank they normally have (Tinny audio for certain words, pronunciations on the level of text-to-speech for certain words etc.). It’s a good basis for what could be done later.

RogueLeader said:

Is it just the voice that is bothering people, or is it the way the voices are mixed in?

Speaking for myself? It varies. In the case of Poe’s briefing, it’s the voice itself since it sounds distractingly monotone and robotic for a briefing that’s informing everyone about the fact that the galaxy’s greatest threat has returned with a plan to go full scorched galaxy but for the others? It’s mainly the mixing. For instance, it’s hard to explain but Kylo’s voice has almost a bassy, booming quality to it in the film. The AI voice clip on the other hand doesn’t have that and as a result, it gives off this “Dude forgot to apply the vocal effect.” quality.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

For Kylo’s AI line, I reduced its pitch by a decent amount before giving it to Hal. I wonder if it might have helped to pitch up the line present in the original film to help bring them in line with each other?

For Leia’s saber line, my thinking was that “Rey, never be afraid of who you are” speaks only to the idea that there is an inner darkness in her that she should have the courage to face. Whereas with the added line, it gains a second meaning in that Leia is telling her that she’s a Jedi and she should never doubt that about herself. Which ties in with her modified one-liner to Palpatine: “I am a Jedi”. She’s repeating what Leia directly told her.

That could’ve worked. The problem is primarily that the AI line sounds right as in it sounds like Adam Driver as Kylo and matches his speaking style but it doesn’t sound like it came from the movie and thus my attention is turned to how the line is clearly added. I think if the audio clip was edited to maybe match how Kylo’s voice sounds in this scene? It would’ve turned out better.

As for the Leia line? That’s a real good explanation and I definitely get where it’s coming from. It also in a way turns Luke’s line later on when he catches the saber into a nice little callback. It’s just in execution, it feels tacked on. As in I don’t think the movie gives enough to make the exchange work and instead I feel it takes more away than when it’s silent. Maybe if the line “Never be afraid of who you are.” was altered it’d be better but as it is? You kind of have an instance where it feels the scene’s being undercut a tad.

So I just finished watching the edit. Overall still very enjoyable but I feel I have to echo the sentiment some people have shared, the AI voice lines are very noticeable or at the very least, the ones for human characters that are full decently long sentences. Now in some cases it’s not that bad, Kylo’s line to Palpatine that he’s a ghost in a rotting clone for instance works well, it’s just the sound is off, it’s kind of hard to describe but it overall doesn’t match the bass of the Kylo line before it and Leia’s small lines work though I’d contest that the second line is not needed. The biggest triumph for me is the line about lightspeed ramming where I’m assuming because it’s a single word, a lot of effort was put into ensuring this line matched the tone and flow of the sentence. Then there’s Poe’s speech and I feel a lot of it is distractingly monotone and doesn’t quite match Issac’s weary reads from the film. It’s especially noticeable in the line that was taken from TROS but put through the AI to I assume keep the flow which has him drop Exegol. Maybe on their own time someone can experiment with mixing in the original movie lines to see what that’d do since as is? It’s kinda distracting.

As for the other aspects of this edit? I really like how tight this is. Just a lot of small edits here and there that don’t distract from the main film and add little touches. I personally still have my own hang-ups on certain scenes like the ghosts but all in all? This is likely the best version of this story I will see and it has been a blast watching through each and every version.

My name is in the special thanks? I mean at best I feel I’m just a dingus who has a love of Star Wars but… damn if that doesn’t feel sweet.

Also, I was wondering if you could PM the link to V3 since this looks so, so cool.

fmalover said:

This article IMO perfectly encapsulates the problems with the Sequel Trilogy.

https://www.cracked.com/blog/why-new-star-wars-trilogy-was-doomed-from-start?utm_campaign=social-account&utm_content=&utm_medium=macro_fromlink&utm_partner=cracked&utm_source=facebookCKD

I think a few things on this should be noted. First, the EU already invalidated ROTJ. I mean, kriff if you really want to be mean, you could point out every sequel technically undoes the accomplishments of the original by virtue of it continuing thus necessitating the need for new challenges. Next, it kind of has a point on the lack of set-up and development for this new world… but then busts the kneecaps of it when it gets a detail wrong by asking why would the First Order need to destroy the Republic’s system and equates what they did to throwing a hand grenade into the White House garden and suddenly ending sauerkraut when… they blew up five planets and one had the New Republic’s leadership and governing body. They then continue to get details wrong such as when they talk about the fleet in TROS which was not just Resistance (Which I should note it’s them a year after TLJ.) but also the wider galaxy answering the call to action.

Like I feel like with Sequel criticism comparing it to Prequel criticism, more often than not it feels we’ve seen different movies.

of_Kaiburr_and_Whills said:
I’ve come to view Rey’s training and quickly acquired skills in the Force as a representational thing, corresponding with her storyline of moving forward in life. Its more symbolic in a sense. The issue for me arises in reconciling that way of seeing the Force with the more discipline/training approach we’ve seen prior, where yes there is a symbolic aspect, but there is certainly a more proper generational tradition of knowledge and training. For Rey, its not so much learning to feel the Force and swordfight, rather its about how to control her powers and how to use them for good(?)

To me, there’s a clear difference in how both characters skills in the Force are presented and what they mean for their respective stories. The Force itself operates a little bit different between either trilogy, though certain principles may carry over. Honestly, I will always prefer Luke’s story here, but with more refinement I think this approach for Rey could have been equally interesting. And lets be honest, I may be looking too far into this lol.

I think the issue comes down to an aspect of Star Wars that’s just always going to affect future entries. For years before TFA… Star Wars was done. Yes there was the EU but in terms of the movie franchise and TV shows? It was over with most of the projects we’d get often taking place in periods in-between the movies with the games, comics and novels being left to explore outside of it. Generally speaking, if Lucas was involved? It was not gonna be placed timeline-wise after the films. But as a result, many fans have had more than enough time to dwell on the Force and how it was represented in those years to come which led to very skewed interpretations, especially after the prequels and what they showed with the Force.

The thing about the Force and the way the ST shows it is that it’s not exclusively about discipline and training at least in the same way as other skills are learned. The Force is a mystical energy that binds every living being together, it’s present within every living being with most likely not even knowing that it’s there though everyone has great potential to use it and like any skill? It’s possible to be naturally gifted in it, especially if the person in-question already knows about the Force beforehand. I always think to for instance how Luke’s training in ESB played out. The physical training aspect is him running and jumping around Dagobah which could be considered at least in terms of these movies basic exercise but for the majority of it? It’s about clearing his mind, focusing and learning to accept this new line of thinking. The famous “Judge me by my size do you?” exchange especially shows this because in that scene, Luke is doubting himself since to him, moving a ship is impossible because he knows he physically can’t move it himself so he thinks the same principle applies to moving it with the Force and as Yoda shows… it doesn’t work like that. If Luke believed in himself and let those doubts be brushed aside? He could’ve done what Yoda asked.

Rey has grown up in a world where Luke has saved the galaxy already and thus stories of the Jedi and Force are seemingly more widely spread. TFA shows us she has been on Jakku for years and that it’s a trading outpost meaning she has likely heard over the years many talks about the Jedi from people coming there. We also see from her home and how she plays around with the pilot helmet she’s surrounded by remnants of the old war and has an interest in it and so she’s more easily able to accept the Force’s concepts like being able to move objects and mentally influence the weak-minded. What she doesn’t get is that the Force is not only more than that but that it’s also not so cut-and-dry. She also lacks confidence in the sense that she sees herself as just a scavenger girl who’s not made for adventure while Luke desired something more which limited her on what she could do. To me, it’s why I think it’s understandable that Jedi with permission take children to the temple to train them not just because they recognize the potential on display but that also with them being children? They can take to certain concepts better though what they say requires rigid training and skill they might’ve gotten wrong since in life we always have to revise our understanding of certain concepts.

Like to me with the whole discussion about Rey, I ask one thing… is she Starkiller? Is she Kyle Katarn? Is she Revan? What I mean by that is that those three and others are examples of what I think when the topic of broken Star Wars characters come to mind because in the games they hail from, they can become absolute murderbosses and when they were taken out of the game and thrown into other media? What was done to nerf them was basically take away their ability to eat laser blasts and then heal with either regenerating health or health packs and lightsabers are not just baseball bats because there’s no lifebar so they can’t take a hit from those either. Otherwise? They’re still insanely powerful and highly skilled to the point where what they do borders on the ridiculous. Like people think Rey moving rocks is far-fetched? Starkiller moved a whole Star Destroyer and it doesn’t matter what version of the story you’re consuming, it’s made very clear he did that. People say Rey’s combat skills are absurd? Kyle Katarn is a master of every single lightsaber fighting style and is shown on many occasions to be John Wick-levels of competent. Rey defeating a weakened Kylo is too mu-did we see the same game where Starkiller full-on beats down Darth Vader and beats the Emperor. Granted the latter was likely holding back to a degree but still, that happened and Starkiller still did things to the Emperor that should’ve killed him with the only thing saving him is that ANH hasn’t happened yet so he has to be prevented from killing them since this is a canon story when from the looks of things? He could’ve solved the problem right then and there.

Channel72 said:
Learning the Force has always been depicted as a master/apprentice relationship, requiring discipline and practice. The “new form of thinking” Yoda talks about is what requires this discipline and practice. The OT makes it clear this requires a mentor and teacher. If you include the Prequels, this means years of training. What happens with Rey is completely different. For her it’s like a light-switch. She just spontaneously develops near fully-formed Force capabilities (Jedi mind trick, lifting objects, lightsaber combat). Nobody teaches her and there’s no progression. I can’t imagine how anyone could possibly say this is anything like the earlier films.

Not quite, it’s more like how in the real world there are people who are naturally gifted with and tuned to certain talents but the only thing it allows them is a headstart. Discipline and practice plays a part in using the Force but it’s not the same as other skills. It’s about accepting a new form of thinking, letting go of your doubts and fully embracing this energy. In TFA and TLJ? Rey shows she’s good at combat because of all her time spent on Jakku. The Jedi mind trick is not that hard because it works on the weak-minded and since Rey is gradually learning about the Force abilities she has and has known the stories of the Jedi? It makes sense she’d think “Wait a second, the Jedi have the ability to use this mind trick thing right? Well maybe we can give this a shot.” and she fails two times before when she’s clearly scared and unsure of herself with the third time being when she clears her mind and focuses. The Force is not this RPG skill-tree where you unlock abilities based on aptitude nor is it a martial art. It’s a mystical energy source that connects every living being and technically can be tapped into at any time. The discipline aspect comes in learning when not to use it and how to focus better so that you can use it more efficiently.

Yoda says the ancient Jedi texts are useless to Rey and then literally burns down the library. What kind of twisted message is this?

Thing is, Yoda did that because Rey had the texts with them. Him burning down the tree was basically him showing his frustration with Luke being unable to do it and also him basically saying that like in ESB, Luke fails to focus on the now and instead keeps focusing on either the past or the future. As the movie’s ultimate message is, the past is not something we should ignore or seek to end but rather it’s something to learn from as we look forward since if we’re a slave to our past? We’ll never usually venture out outside our comfort zone or improve and we might end up inadvertently repeating the past and if we ignore it? Obviously we’ll risk repeating the past since we don’t know what to look out for and we see that message reflected here. Luke thinks the Jedi need to end because of his mistakes and he looks back on the history as a jaded man and sees failure. Yoda has looked back on the history and clearly sees just the spots they need to do better on. Rey thinks she can turn Kylo based on their connection and how in the past Luke turned Vader… and she fails because she doesn’t realize Vader and Kylo are different people and fails to see that Luke turning Vader came as a result of having a year to prepare for that decision and circumstances leading to it.

Channel72 said:

while these themes are prominent throughout TLJ, the movie also muddles these messages a bit, which can easily be mistaken for intentional nuance. These messages are muddled in four primary ways:

• Message 3 is also conveyed by the famous line from Kylo Ren “Let the past die”. But since Kylo is a villain, this dialogue is presumably not meant to be taken as a teachable moment for the audience.

• Message 2 and 3 are conveyed by Yoda, but Yoda himself comes from the failed past, so why should we even listen to him?

Simple, because it shows Yoda learned from those failures, it’s a reminder of something we see in ESB’s portrayal of Yoda compared to his portrayal in the prequels. If you don’t consume any expanded material, you could say Yoda was always thinking in this manner and that he only had a lightsaber in AOTC for the sake of self-defense and if you did engage in it? Those stories make it abundantly clear that Yoda eventually came to see all the flaws of the old order and thus went out of his way to not make the same mistakes, an idea you could infer even on your own since… well it’s been so long that surely Yoda had to have learned something.

• Yoda says the Jedi texts are mostly useless to Rey, yet Rey takes them with her anyway.

• Yoda also mentions two positive things (strength and mastery) as things that should be passed down by elders

the overall message is pretty clear: “knowledge/ideas passed down by elders is useful mostly so we can learn to avoid past failures, but there is little the past can teach us as we move forward, so we must look inward to ourselves.” In my opinion, this is a harmful, insidious message that, when taken to its logical endpoint, results in solipsism and narcissism.

Instead, Star Wars should portray the learning process as a give and take between elder and younger generation, with the elder conveying most of the knowledge, but the younger offering a unique perspective that forces elders to reconsider long-held beliefs. The OT did this perfectly, with Luke learning from Kenobi and Yoda, but also proving them wrong by redeeming Vader.

Finally, it’s true that Rey herself also fails badly in TLJ. This is what the “Mary Sue” crowd doesn’t acknowledge. Rey gets her ass kicked by Snoke, she has to be saved by Kylo, and then she fails to bring Kylo back to the light. Now, Luke definitely fails more often (let’s get real here), but this is actually not even relevant. The important point is that Rey’s strength and power come almost exclusively from looking inward to herself and tapping into her inner strength, not by learning from an elder mentor who bestows knowledge from the past. This is an extension of what happens in TFA, where Rey’s Force powers spontaneously manifest with no prior training. It’s also why Rey sees an endless reflection of herself during her vision in the underground cave. TLJ ends triumphantly with Rey lifting tons of boulders - a feat that nobody taught her to do (apart from some meta-joke about lifting rocks). Rather, it was only her own inner strength that enabled her to do it.

Thing is? That’s pretty in-line with the Force. When Yoda was telling Luke to lift up the X-Wing, he expressed doubt which led to Yoda explaining basically that the ability to use the Force comes down to patience and mostly accepting this new form of thinking. It’s about inner strength and accepting a whole new thought process. Strength and mastery in this is not about exercising some Force muscle or whatever, it’s about letting go and allowing this energy to guide you. Rey learned she needed to believe in herself but she also learned facts about how those stories she loved were about real people and that the wars clearly took tolls on them, that the Jedi aren’t 100% squeaky clean arbiters of peace and also learned some hard truths. Luke told her things aren’t just gonna go the way she thinks they will because they happened once before… and he’s proven right. Not to mention there is a back and forth, Luke’s cynicism is framed as being wrong but understandable with Rey taking every opportunity to counter it. The two do learn from one another and ultimately end up with the movie’s message that those who are too shackled to the past are often doomed to repeat it and that ultimately, failure is as much a part of the process of growth as any other element.

I really don’t see this supposed “anti learning from elders” message.

daveybjones999 said:

AspiringCreator said:

daveybjones999 said:

AspiringCreator said:

James1027 said:

TLJ basically cemented the way these new stories would go. Luke and the old guard are broken, weak, and dumb while the new empowered crew has to save the day. TLJ supposedly has a theme about failure. Yes, everyone failed. Except Rey. She successfully resists the dark side, resists Kylo, lifts countless rocks to aide the rebels, escapes snokes damaged ship and steals his private craft, bests Luke in mock combat and is able to show she is truly greater then all the other miserable failures in the film.

Well Luke also succeeded in saving the Resistance and becoming more powerful than one could possibly imagine, Poe learned the lesson about being a smarter leader and Finn learned that how they win and fight is important along with just stopping the bad guy. Also Rey failed to turn Kylo to the light, failed to see Luke’s point that things weren’t just gonna play out like they did 30 years ago and still struggled with the Dark Side by going straight to it and if you’re gonna mention that?

Yeah, I completely agree with you on this 1 part. Rey is constantly failing at literally everything in the 8th movie and people come out of it thinking she’s a Mary Sue? Like what? Were people paying any attention during the course of the movie? She fails to convince Luke to train her, R2 does that, she fails Luke’s first lesson at first and immediately goes to the dark side, she messes up her lightsaber training by losing focus and destroying the rock, and she’s not able to do anything to Snoke and needs Kylo Ren to save her ass, she spends most of the fight with the pretorian guards fighting 1-2 of them whilst Kylo Ren kills the rest, only being able to help out at the last second, she fails to turn Kylo Ren back to the light side of the force. She also fails to convince Luke to help out the Resistance and come out of hiding, Yoda does that. The only thing Rey succeeds at in The Last Jedi is knocking down Luke who clearly wasn’t going all out or trying to hurt her, fighting off some of the tie fighters on Crait and lifting a bunch of rocks to save the Resistance. I definitely understand criticisms of her being a Mary Sue in episodes 7 and 9, but she’s the complete opposite of a Mary Sue in episode 8 in which she fails in literally everything that she sets out to do through the entire film. Also, the Old Guard are literally the only characters who are competent in episode 8, what film are people watching? The supposedly “new empowered crew” literally screws up and gets nearly everyone in the Resistance Killed whereas if Poe had listened to Leia and Holdo in the first place none of that would have happened but apparently them failing so hard that they almost singlehandedly destroy the entire resistance is them saving the day? The only reason the entire Resistance doesn’t die is because Leia wakes up from her coma and shoots Poe into unconsciousness, and the only reason Rey can lift the rocks to save the Resistance is because Luke Skywalker projects himself onto the planet to stall Kylo Ren. Come on now The Last Jedi isn’t a perfect movie and clearly didn’t do a good enough job at relating its themes and what it was trying to do to the audience, but I fail to see how the old guard is portrayed as incompetent

I’ve always felt whenever I hear complaints about Rey being a “Mary Sue”? I honestly wonder if we’re consuming the same franchise because if one does that? I feel then they should judge the rest of the series because by their logic? Plenty of characters fit the bill of being a Mary Sue. Luke fits it, Anakin fits it, Starkiller fits it. Honestly I feel like I’d be more understanding if it was just said that they didn’t like Rey as a character and left it as that.

I will disagree with Luke being a Gary Stu. He trains and struggles a lot more than Rey ever does, even though I don’t think Rey is a Mary Sue I can understand that a little in episode 7. But your point about the other protagonists still stands.

Thing is, I said by their logic because fundamentally, the things they’re angry about with Rey can be applied to Luke. For instance, if they’re asking how Rey can just fly ships and write off her time as a scavenger and her line that she has flown before as a cop-out? Luke at best in ANH has been shown to drive a landspeeder and he states he flew a T-16 which we don’t know is an airspeeder and his only time in a ship is in the Falcon’s turret and as a passenger but he can pilot an X-Wing no problem. Rey uses the Force with little explanation, Luke is told basically the equivalent of “Just feel it out bro.” and he does it. Now I don’t personally think he’s a Mary Sue but it’s easy enough to see when you frame things a certain way how he could be seen as one and why the arguments against Rey, who arguably in many instances has more explanation for her abilities that are rooted in what has been in SW before, seem bogus because really, it’s clear it’s just a general dislike for the character showing through that leads to the Mary Sue comment.

Servii said:

The supposedly “new empowered crew” literally screws up and gets nearly everyone in the Resistance Killed whereas if Poe had listened to Leia and Holdo in the first place none of that would have happened but apparently them failing so hard that they almost singlehandedly destroy the entire resistance is them saving the day? The only reason the entire Resistance doesn’t die is because Leia wakes up from her coma and shoots Poe into unconsciousness

If Poe had listened to Leia, the Dreadnought would have followed the Resistance fleet through hyperspace and killed them all anyway with its super mega “fleet killer” cannon. Also, Leia stunning Poe was completely overkill. Her or Holdo could have literally said the phrase “They can’t track the smaller transports” at any point, and that whole plot wouldn’t have happened.

Or that could’ve happened and Poe then could’ve said “So we’re just gonna turn tail and run away? That’s our plan?” since the movie shows he cares more about being this action hero instead of a good leader.

As for Rey, she basically doesn’t get trained in this movie. She teaches Luke more than he teaches her. And she still kicks the Praetorian guards’ butts and lifts a mountain of boulders seemingly effortlessly. And Kylo refusing to turn to the Light is moreso just a reflection of Kylo being a PoS, not Rey failing at something. She’s utterly morally superior in every situation. It’s not like with Luke and Yoda where Yoda is the source of wisdom and power that Luke needs to emulate. Rey is simply better than Luke, already. She didn’t need him at all.

It’s a back and forth. Luke teaches her about the Force which grants her a much better understanding of it while she counters his various instances of cynicism. She set out to turn Kylo to the light and failed which yes is because of Kylo himself mostly but she still failed at a goal she set out to do. The Praetorians would’ve killed Kylo and Rey had they not fought together and as for the mountain of boulders? To put it very bluntly, that’s how the Force works. ESB made it clear that all that’s keeping a Jedi from lifting heavy objects with the Force is their own mind. As Yoda said, one must unlearn what they’ve learned which means coming to accept that when you use the Force, you don’t view objects in terms of how heavy or how light they can be or think about how difficult it would be to move them with your mind, you simply view them as objects that can be moved.

Then he trolls his nephew, and dies from the effort, having done the absolute bare minimum of keeping a handful of Resistance alive.

But he kept them alive, is now far more powerful than anyone could imagine and while there’s only a handful left? I mean it was once thought the Empire was impossible to take out but it wasn’t and the legend of Luke will spread and inspire many as shown by the end of the film.

daveybjones999 said:

AspiringCreator said:

James1027 said:

TLJ basically cemented the way these new stories would go. Luke and the old guard are broken, weak, and dumb while the new empowered crew has to save the day. TLJ supposedly has a theme about failure. Yes, everyone failed. Except Rey. She successfully resists the dark side, resists Kylo, lifts countless rocks to aide the rebels, escapes snokes damaged ship and steals his private craft, bests Luke in mock combat and is able to show she is truly greater then all the other miserable failures in the film.

Well Luke also succeeded in saving the Resistance and becoming more powerful than one could possibly imagine, Poe learned the lesson about being a smarter leader and Finn learned that how they win and fight is important along with just stopping the bad guy. Also Rey failed to turn Kylo to the light, failed to see Luke’s point that things weren’t just gonna play out like they did 30 years ago and still struggled with the Dark Side by going straight to it and if you’re gonna mention that?

Yeah, I completely agree with you on this 1 part. Rey is constantly failing at literally everything in the 8th movie and people come out of it thinking she’s a Mary Sue? Like what? Were people paying any attention during the course of the movie? She fails to convince Luke to train her, R2 does that, she fails Luke’s first lesson at first and immediately goes to the dark side, she messes up her lightsaber training by losing focus and destroying the rock, and she’s not able to do anything to Snoke and needs Kylo Ren to save her ass, she spends most of the fight with the pretorian guards fighting 1-2 of them whilst Kylo Ren kills the rest, only being able to help out at the last second, she fails to turn Kylo Ren back to the light side of the force. She also fails to convince Luke to help out the Resistance and come out of hiding, Yoda does that. The only thing Rey succeeds at in The Last Jedi is knocking down Luke who clearly wasn’t going all out or trying to hurt her, fighting off some of the tie fighters on Crait and lifting a bunch of rocks to save the Resistance. I definitely understand criticisms of her being a Mary Sue in episodes 7 and 9, but she’s the complete opposite of a Mary Sue in episode 8 in which she fails in literally everything that she sets out to do through the entire film. Also, the Old Guard are literally the only characters who are competent in episode 8, what film are people watching? The supposedly “new empowered crew” literally screws up and gets nearly everyone in the Resistance Killed whereas if Poe had listened to Leia and Holdo in the first place none of that would have happened but apparently them failing so hard that they almost singlehandedly destroy the entire resistance is them saving the day? The only reason the entire Resistance doesn’t die is because Leia wakes up from her coma and shoots Poe into unconsciousness, and the only reason Rey can lift the rocks to save the Resistance is because Luke Skywalker projects himself onto the planet to stall Kylo Ren. Come on now The Last Jedi isn’t a perfect movie and clearly didn’t do a good enough job at relating its themes and what it was trying to do to the audience, but I fail to see how the old guard is portrayed as incompetent

I’ve always felt whenever I hear complaints about Rey being a “Mary Sue”? I honestly wonder if we’re consuming the same franchise because if one does that? I feel then they should judge the rest of the series because by their logic? Plenty of characters fit the bill of being a Mary Sue. Luke fits it, Anakin fits it, Starkiller fits it. Honestly I feel like I’d be more understanding if it was just said that they didn’t like Rey as a character and left it as that.

James1027 said:

I thought the ST was a very, very serious blow overall to the credibility and seriousness as a franchise to Star Wars.

TFA resets the entire galaxy off screen with little to no explanation or effort. George Lucas always had an expanding world and story. TFA also added very little in the form of new looks, technology and the Forcr was very slowly creeping in power to an unrecognizable level. I don’t have a problem with new abilities but once we start breaking in universe rules that begins jumping the shark.

I feel like whenever we get into the territory of breaking in-universe rules? We should point out something. The rules of a movie universe are never usually concrete, they have room to be bent and changed. That’s what makes the Force in these films work so well. In ANH we get a vague explanation on what it is and see it can influence the weak-minded and choke people with such precision you can pinch a windpipe closed. But because Lucas didn’t establish concrete rules? He could expand upon it by then showing it can move objects in ESB and of course the lightning in ROTJ. It was only really the EU that started obsessing about strict rules for how the Force should work and later the prequels of all the things they chose not to expand upon decided Force abilities should be restricted to what we’ve seen before. On that note, the Force… kind of did more insane things in the EU than it ever did in the ST.

TLJ basically cemented the way these new stories would go. Luke and the old guard are broken, weak, and dumb while the new empowered crew has to save the day. TLJ supposedly has a theme about failure. Yes, everyone failed. Except Rey. She successfully resists the dark side, resists Kylo, lifts countless rocks to aide the rebels, escapes snokes damaged ship and steals his private craft, bests Luke in mock combat and is able to show she is truly greater then all the other miserable failures in the film.

Well Luke also succeeded in saving the Resistance and becoming more powerful than one could possibly imagine, Poe learned the lesson about being a smarter leader and Finn learned that how they win and fight is important along with just stopping the bad guy. Also Rey failed to turn Kylo to the light, failed to see Luke’s point that things weren’t just gonna play out like they did 30 years ago and still struggled with the Dark Side by going straight to it and if you’re gonna mention that? We should remember that Anakin was propped up in the prequels as being the chosen one who could be even more powerful than Yoda and the canon acts like this prophecy is not something that was just speculated about and instead was actually how the universe was supposed to play out and on top of that he destroyed the Trade Federation ship when he was nine.

Overall the ST has accelerated the death knell for Star Wars. The magic is gone and you can’t recapture it because the people who run the franchise don’t understand what made it successful in the first place.

I think The Mandalorian, Andor, Obi-Wan Kenobi, TCW S7, Bad Batch and more would like to have a word with you on that. The thing is, Lucasfilm isn’t about just trying to appease the same old fans who have this rigid idea of what Star Wars is. The old EU was all about the continuing adventures of Luke, Han and Leia in part because when the EU was made, it was a way to keep Star Wars going without any new movies and of course what people want to know is what happened next. That being said, EU writers also made tons of choices based on a desire to not upset Lucas and as a result, played things safe which works alright when we’re talking books and comics but when it comes to movies and shows? If you’re gonna have Star Wars continue, you can’t just dip your hands into the same well of what came before, you have to do new things. You’ve got to allow yourself to explore new angles of old-school characters.

Transformers: The Movie - Ultimate Prime Edition - orderlyroddypiper

Disclaimer: The way I choose to review movies and edits is that I show brutal honesty. What I mean is that while I will most certainly praise a film for its positive points? I will not hold back when an issue presents itself. With fan-edits I try to temper this as much as possible considering these aren’t made by professional teams and studios but I also don’t try to completely shy away because I just don’t feel comfortable in hiding my true feelings on something. If you are the editor and happen to be reading this? Just know this. I am in no way trying to discredit your efforts. In fact, I greatly appreciate the amount of time and patience that has gone into this and I think there is still something to be said about how fun it is to view these alternate versions of films and shows to see just how it could’ve been done a little differently and the idea that someone who has chosen this as their hobby winds up discouraged because of negativity saddens me.

That being said, I also feel if you put out a product regardless of if it’s something you pay money for or an edit you download for free that honesty in reviews is of the utmost importance because it is through that honesty that editors can learn how to potentially improve their craft and at the very least, it adds to the discussion. My opinions are just my opinions and you are free to do with them what you please and if you are a viewer who happens to like an edit I criticize? That’s great and I hope you do keep loving it and that more people give it a try. Sometimes edits can just not be for someone.

While Star Wars is certainly a franchise I’m basically a fanatic for? My true first love is for a certain series involving warring robots that can change shape and disguise themselves as vehicles and everyday objects. Now to be clear, I’m not a child of the 80s, my first exposure to the Transformers came in the 2000s with Armada and more specifically the PS2 game but over the years I’ve become more than aware of the impact the original G1 series has had on people, especially the 1986 animated film which over the years has become a cult-classic for its amazing soundtrack, great animation and action and what it did for the lore of the series.

For me though? The movie honestly is kind of overrated. I could understand the positivity more when say, we only had the Bay films in terms of Transformers movies to compare it to which made it the best by default but now after the release of Bumblebee and when comparing it to other stories told in this series? I feel under re-evaluation more of the movie’s issues show through. The new characters are not particularly strong and season 3 of the cartoon doesn’t do a whole lot to alleviate those issues, when you really think about it this is still blatantly a toy commercial with how all these elements of lore like the Matrix and Unicron come right out of nowhere with the movie pretending all of these were established facts in the first place without any hint of these being a reveal for the audience and then there’s, of course, the first portion of the movie having established characters of the first two seasons being ruthlessly murdered and it all culminating in the death of Optimus Prime. Now I’m of two minds of that last part, on the one hand, because of my lack of connection to G1 (For reference, my Optimus death that traumatized me was ROTF’s.) and growing up with shows like Dragon Ball Z, these don’t really affect me that much with me more being surprised and kind of impressed with the guts on display here, especially since with the exception of the Bay films and Cliffjumper since Prime, the series doesn’t really tend to kill named characters and Prime dying at this point I was aware was just a thing that happened that it didn’t really affect me.

On the other hand though? It is just odd how all these established characters die and yet no one, even in the quiet moments when you could feasibly expect characters to start taking a moment to grieve ever thinks back to just how much they lost with the closest being to when Arcee is looking down mournfully at Wheeljack’s body and Optimus’ whole death scene. Over the years we’d come to learn about the truckload of cut content and later adaptations and revisits would even attempt to rectify certain issues like IDW’s comic adaptation which in the trade included a scene where the combiner teams are battling one another to show what they were doing among other slight revisions. This brings us to the Ultimate Prime Edition, a cut by orderlyroddypiper that attempts through the use of footage from the show, other sources and various other ambitious edits to make a version of the film which not only is more epic but also has Optimus survive the whole way through. The idea is incredibly ambitious and it’s the kind of ambition I respect and hope to see more with edits of this movie, especially since we’re seeing a few people actually going as far as to animate some of the cut scenes that were storyboarded.

But ambition is one thing, what ultimately matters is the execution and if the edit works with all the changes made and… I’m so sorry to say that this is a case where the edit’s ambition was just too great for both the skills of the editor and what the movie provides to the point where even ideas that at first sound great end up falling to pieces, leaving an experience that not only doesn’t really improve upon the movie but despite its admirable ideas I feel it’s actively worse. Now normally for reviews I’d go act by act to break down what works and what doesn’t but honestly considering the movie is largely unchanged here aside from the added and changed scenes? I’m going to instead focus on certain portions of the movie where changes occur. So from the beginning to just after the battle between Blaster and Soundwave’s cassettes, we get a change seemingly inspired by the IDW adaptation by including a battle between the combiners and Omega Supreme which on paper is really cool and helps this to feel like a grand epic battle with everything from the cartoon but in execution does a lot of harm to the pacing and was more awkward to witness. It comes just after Blaster says “We’re all gonna look like burnt out toaster ovens.” and is a hard cut from the battle scene we see straight to a close-up of Motormaster’s face as he tells the Stunticons to unite while this rap beat plays. The transition doesn’t work because it doesn’t shift gracefully to the Stunticons, it just happens and what’s strange especially is that in the original movie, the transition was a fade to black which could’ve been utilized here to potentially make things work more smoothly. Then there’s the music which does not fit remotely with how the film is scored in any capacity. I get that when it comes to this you really can’t win given Transformers is an incredibly old series and you have to just accept that regardless of what you pick it’s not gonna exactly match up with the movie’s music but I feel the conclusion to just use a genre of music that isn’t even represented in the soundtrack, doesn’t match the 80s vibe or even the dire tone of the fight in Autobot City at all is much more distracting than anything. Speaking of distracting, the footage really doesn’t do a good job of matching up with the movie since while aesthetically it kind of matches? The problem is that the movie really took advantage of the higher budget and increased time to make characters look far more detailed and the animation much more dynamic for the time. The original cartoon… doesn’t really have animation that can match that and that’s not me trying to be cruel. The thing about melding animation from a TV show with animation from a movie is that you really have to consider wide the gap in quality is before using it since both are made on very different schedules which greatly affect the overall quality.

And in the case of 80s cartoons like Transformers where the animation was often produced quickly and cheaply? This is where you’re especially gonna run into problems considering the animation of these shows aesthetically don’t line up with the movies and often were very inconsistent and that problem gets compounded when multiple sources are used. This version of the movie uses the original cartoon, sped up Scramble City footage with replaced sounds (Including one instance of a rock hitting Bruticus’ head that’s way too loud.), slowed down footage from the cartoon and it all culminates in a mess of a fight. There is no sense of consistency, no clear idea of where everyone is in relation to one another and the quality varies way too much between footage (The Scramble City footage in particular looks like it was recorded off a VHS with some overblown contrast in some instances) and in the case of the original cartoon footage, the original background music is even still present which I know to a degree is a nitpick considering the audio track produced for the cartoon was a mono track and likely none of the master materials for the audio has survived but it’s still incredibly distracting. The thing about the IDW trade and why it was able to have a scene like that in the first place is because it’s original art created for it that has to capture a moment in time and in that moment in time, everyone’s battling all at once and thus it fits with the pace of the movie. In the actual movie, to make a change like this work gracefully you’d need a great deal of patience and skill to really work to tie all these elements together in a way that sticks with the movie because the cartoon used every trick in the book make things easier to animate from keeping fights down to usually one-on-one bouts and making most of the fights grapple matches. Not only that but the edit makes the odd choice to give us a fight between Devastator and Omega Supreme and while I can give props considering I get the thinking was that this is a robotic city similar to Autobot City and had an orange sky which matches up with the later scenes? Not only is the color completely different but considering Omega Supreme showed up in the mountainous regions to help Defensor and Superion earlier and due to the limitations of the footage? Omega just teleports basically to where the Constructicons are to get bodied. If this scene wasn’t included then maybe I could’ve tweaked my analysis to think “Well at least it admirably tries to include a scenario from the IDW comic.” and look past the limitations aside from the technical hiccups while still saying the scene shouldn’t be here for pacing reasons? This really crippled it. It’s a choice that feels like it was made for the sake of being cool and not for the sake of the story or pacing.

And unfortunately this really sets the standard for edits like this since we then get how the edit chooses to have Prime live. Now idea-wise? It works. Megatron grabs the pistol he used to kill him in the original film, Prime notices the move and then opens fire. That being said, there are a few problems here with the first being the general oddities with the edits. For the most part the footage is pretty clear and definitely using one of the recent releases of the film but then on occasion it changes over to what looks like badly upscaled footage of the film, particularly when Megatron gets knocked off the platform where outlines are suddenly blurry and look a lot like watercolor and every time it happens it distracts me quite a bit. Next there’s the matter of it using cartoon footage to have Optimus shown firing at Megatron which is quick but in this time, the music completely changes, the environment around Prime doesn’t look right and he’s two-handing his rifle. The animation quality is also different and the music just snaps back to the film’s score which is jarring and then there’s the hard cut from the Decepticons rushing towards Megatron to them surrounding him which leads to the score jumping to a later point with no graceful transition and the same happens when Starscream shows up. Now to a degree, I get what the point was for the previous edit since it was editing around Optimus struggling to stand and collapsing but honestly considering the damage he suffered to his side? I feel with some creative editing it could’ve been better to have Optimus still doing that like he’s just now taking a moment to deal with his injuries but the Starscream one confuses me considering the scene isn’t like this in the regular movie with there being nothing to edit around.

I’m really not gonna focus on how this messes with Hot Rod’s character arc considering the editor addressed this but I’m at the very least gonna contest that this is a worthy tradeoff given the general execution, especially of the later scene where after an admittedly nice transition, we get to Optimus’ speech about the fallen and this is honestly a commendable but still very sloppy job. It tries to stitch together lines from mainly season 1 and a few other points to make this a heartwarming remembrance speech but the lines don’t really work. I can’t fault the general quality too much considering the age of the cartoon but there’s something about “They will live forever as long as freedom exists.” that just sounds too silly. I get the general vibe that it’s about them living forever in their memories but honestly with how it’s done? It sounds like Prime accidentally implied they are not dead and will forever live on as long as there’s freedom, he realized in the moment how silly that sounded and so he quickly added “We shall remember you.” so that he doesn’t look stupid. I would go over specifically every edit but honestly they keep up this general theme.

The edit is also loaded with technical problems from audio jumps to quality dips in both the audio and footage, multiple times where the intended edit creates continuity and consistency issues and with the addition of footage from the season 3 episodes involving the hate plague, a subplot that ends up created which distracts entirely from the main story. It all culminates in a final product that makes me more appreciate what the original film was trying to do and understand now that the worst take on this story is not the Deviations comic. Overall, this gets a 4/10 from me. A great effort and idea but marred by very poor execution and overambition.

sherlockpotter said:

As a theoretical alternative, I’ve been working on a version of Rey’s dialogue for my edit that would have her reflecting on, and rejecting, Kylo’s offer of partnership. I think it works in the context of the larger story, and it offers a somewhat subtle callback to TLJ, where Rey told Kylo that “it isn’t too late” for him. The fact that she’s now saying the opposite adds weight to Finn’s argument that “that doesn’t sound like [her].”

I’m not really sure how to slot it in against the available footage, but I’m putting it out there in case anyone has ideas. (Or critiques on the mashup - can always use some fresh ears for stuff like this!)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BjneRw1tO-Ns75huDvQabBdnsdCypbje/view?usp=sharing

I really like this change. It builds upon Rey’s growing disdain for Kylo and her leaning further into the Dark Side, it adds weight to the moment when she kills Kylo and looks at this with horror and it provides a neat inverse to Luke’s arc in ROTJ. My only real criticism which really could just be a nitpick is that after the “He killed his father…” line, I can’t really tell what the other two lines are and the transition to the second line is a little jarring especially with the audio quality kind of shifting. Still definitely keep working at this, this sounds awesome.

Fan_edit_fan said:

AspiringCreator said:

JadedSkywalker said:

I disagree on one hand Threepio being built by Anakin stretches canon to its breaking point. On the other its funny that Anakin become Vader more machine than man and Threepio is very human like, a robot he built. Just like even though it breaks canon Vader being born at the same time Padme dies is a very powerful visual. Its like Lucas was being too clever.

That’s fair, I will say even that I am one of those people that normally won’t care if something breaks canon a little if I like the storytelling and themes at play though with Anakin and Threepio, I feel like even with that comparison it’s mostly bandages at best for what is pretty decently big wound. There are bigger issues though that I’m willing to concede to.

JadedSkywalker said:

But i don’t by the poetry it rhymes stuff. Or whatever some fan created online to describe the movies. There is visual symmetry and continuity, almost accidentally at times due to Lucas recycling ideas. But the most interesting aspect to me would have been Luke and Anakin having similar journey’s that ended up in a different place. Lucas failed in executing that. Anakin’s turn and his friendship with Obi-Wan are completely bungled, rushed or skipped over. The Opera scene was interesting, that is a seduction to power and evil. But the whole join the dark side to save Padme doesn’t work. Not sure what other answer to Anakin’s turn Lucas could have done. But it should have been like what was described in the OT, and the return of the jedi novelization.

I definitely would agree with that. Like I said, the prequels are in desperate need of simplification. The focal point of this story feels like it should be Anakin and how he’s a good honest person that gets manipulated by the Dark Side but the movies focus so much on setting up other elements, at times pointless side-quests and overdoes it on Anakin being such a good person before he turns that it means his evil switch has to be flipped to 100 real quick to where it’s almost unnatural.

I always thought it was weird that Anakin required no proof from Palpatine for him just to jump to Sith and start killing everyone in the name of saving one person in his life. Selfishness isn’t really being “manipulated”. If only George had written in a moment where Palps showed some sort of healing effect from his power it would have been more believable to “click” something in Anakins brain. He just drops to his knees in weak desperation based on a claim from someone who turned into Freddy Krueger.

And even though he had conflict with Mace there was no reason why he would hate EVERY SINGLE Jedi monk and the innocent padawans. When he says “From my point of view the Jedi are evil” it has no base to it. There’s plenty of reasons why I consider ROTS just as convoluted as TROS, but it would have been saved if there was a compelling, relatable dilemma for Anakins turn. Oh well.

The weirdest part about it is the selfishness aspect would be compelling in of itself. I mean humans in general are no stranger to being selfish for what could be argued to be totally justified and understandable reasons such as love so Anakin there would be fairly relatable minus the fact he’s a space wizard. Like let’s say after the nightmares, he didn’t get interested in the Dark Side because of Palpatine but rather he started thinking about what the Force could do and he starts looking into it himself and that especially catches his attention but then that’s getting into rewriting territory. It really is such a shame the prequels basically require TCW or the EU, which should’ve just been able to be fun side-content, for Anakin’s fall to function properly.

Vilgefortz said:

And why exactly there are Star Wars reviews in non-Star Wars part of the forum?

Basically what Vultural said. It’s mildly confusing because the section it’s in is named in such a way that it suggests it’s only about non-Star Wars stuff but this is just for fan-edit reviews in general.

That original one sounds great. I think the only thing that kind of hurts it is with nothing done to the Kylo line it kind of overtakes Kylo’s “Join me.” and thus kind of just sounds like a bunch of people are in a room screaming and fighting for attention. I think maybe if it had a minor vocal effect done to it since it is a vision it’d help it. The Luke line addition though works very well as does Finn’s scream from TFA.