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44rh1n

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5-Dec-2014
Last activity
6-Feb-2021
Posts
181

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Post
#1408042
Topic
44rh1n's "The Fellowship of the Ring" Extended Edition Color Restoration (Released)
Time

Nick66 said:

44rh1n said:
WOW, you’re right! I just checked my iTunes copy, and it looks REALLY good! It’s still only HD for me (hopefully it upgrades to 4K for me eventually – iTunes usually does!), but it’s definitely the new master. It looks WAY better than the old green extended Blu-ray master!

So I’m curious about something. When you stream the new master from iTunes/Apple TV on an 1080p SDR monitor, what are you actually watching? I get that the 4K would just be downscaled to 1080p, but what about the HDR? Is there some kind of tone mapping being done, or does Apple already have a 1080p SDR version of the new master that automatically streams if they detect you’re using a non-HDR screen?

The simple answer is that the 1080p version is an SDR master that’s been derived from the HDR master. It’s not HDR, but it comes from the same source.

The more complex answer is that this was mastered in Dolby Vision. A lot of people don’t quite understand what Dolby Vision actually is, so let me explain: Dolby Vision is when you take an HDR (Rec.2020/ST.2084) graded master, and use Dolby’s trim analysis tools to perform a shot-for-shot tonemapping of the entire film. Every single shot is analyzed and remapped to fit inside of a Rec.709/Gamma 2.4/100-nit SDR container. After the analysis, Dolby has additional custom trim tools that allow the colorist to fine-tune the SDR version of the film. They can tweak the exposure, the saturation, and the balance/tint. This way, they can make SDR version look as good as possible. Then the same analysis/trim pass is repeated a number of times to accommodate the capabilities of different screens. For example, a brand new analysis and trim pass will be performed for 600-nit TVs, 400-nit TVs, etc. This is why Dolby Vision HDR looks so much better on consumer screens than generic HDR, because its tonemapping is done by the colorist himself rather than just using a TV’s automatic tonemapping. Every version of the film, tailored to your specific screen, was done by the colorist.

So when you’re watching the SDR version, you’re not just watching something that’s been automatically tonemapped. You’re watching the Dolby Vision SDR version that the colorist has actually created, using Dolby’s toolkit, and derived from that original HDR master. That’s what Dolby Vision is – a toolset that allows filmmakers to create an HDR master and then interpolate the color grade all the way down to SDR while preserving the original intent of the grade.

And yes, I would imagine that the new 1080p Blu-rays are going to be from that same Dolby Vision SDR trim. So they will likely look the same as the iTunes 1080p versions, but with a much higher bitrate.

Hope that makes sense.

Post
#1393322
Topic
Info: Guide for Working with 4K HDR Blu-ray Rips in SDR
Time

Deloreanhunter12 said:

Ah gotcha. Thank so much for all your help with this. I want my Hobbit fanedit to be at its best shape so this really helps. Sorry for all the questions, but I do have one last one. Would an HDR passthrough capture card suffice for viewing HDR or would I have to go for one of the Blackmagic devices? I don’t really use resolve that often and primarily use Premiere Pro CC for my basic color needs.

DeckLink and UltraStudio devices are for monitoring, not for capturing. So that’s an entirely different type of device. Also, generally people use the same Blackmagic devices for their reference displays when using Premiere anyway. Or AJA also makes some that work too.

Also, Premiere actually doesn’t even support HDR PQ at this time (the HDR format used on 4K Blu-ray). They have plans to incorporate it into future versions of Premiere, but it’s currently not supported. (You can still cut an HDR ProRes video inside of Premiere, but you won’t be able to monitor it in HDR or export it in HDR). Right now, Premiere only “kind of” supports HDR HLG, which is an entirely different format. And to be frank, their support is quite limited.

Post
#1393223
Topic
Info: Guide for Working with 4K HDR Blu-ray Rips in SDR
Time

In order to color grade in HDR, you need to connect your HDR monitor as an external reference display inside of Resolve, not as a GUI display. This means you will need an HDR-supported DeckLink or UltraStudio device, plugged in through PCIe or Thunderbolt.

Also, if all you have access to is a consumer display, then the only ones that can “approximate” the appropriate range necessary for accurate HDR grading are OLEDs. Particularly the last two generations of LG OLEDs (C9 and CX). But even OLEDs require calibration and lots of setup. Dado Valentic has a really great guide for getting an OLED set up for HDR grading. https://youtu.be/T-oYDNbnVXQ

Also, grading in HDR is quite difficult, actually. If you’re not already familiar with grading in Resolve, then you’ll probably want to practice grading in SDR first.

This written guide of mine here on this forum is primarily intended for those who are interested in grading 4K HDR Blu-rays in an SDR environment. Grading in HDR really is quite a complicated beast at the moment for consumers. Most consumer hardware just isn’t really good enough yet.

Post
#1392255
Topic
44rh1n's "The Fellowship of the Ring" Extended Edition Color Restoration (Released)
Time

Ugh, but the more and more that I look at these films and pixel-peep, the more I’m realizing that they really do have far too much DNR… Makes me sad. Colors on Fellowship EE are still far better than the regular Blu-ray though.

Jay said:

Just watched this review:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3Z58uiwcME

I don’t see how anybody can defend this release…

Wow, that shot of Gandalf’s staff is REALLY bad… UGH!

Most of those other shots aren’t as bad as people are making them out to be though. Most of that “detail” he’s referring to is just grain, whereas the actual detail is still there in the 4K.

But I agree that the grain looks really nice and it should have been left in!! Peter, WHY did you remove the grain?!

Post
#1392235
Topic
44rh1n's "The Fellowship of the Ring" Extended Edition Color Restoration (Released)
Time

ChainsawAsh said:

…Every screencap I’ve seen of a shot that is 100% for sure not a VFX/composite shot definitely looks like a true 4K scan to me.

I think people are really underestimating how many composites and VFX shots are in these movies, and it’s already been stated that such shots are either 4K scans of 2K film-out negatives, or upscales of the 2K DI.

This. 100% this. There are so many VFX shots in these films, even shots that you wouldn’t ever think are VFX shots. But for shots that aren’t VFX, they definitely look like true 4K to me.

Also, I don’t know how anybody can complain about the Fellowship 4K release. It’s literally the best the film has ever looked on an official home video release. No other previous release even comes close! Sure, it’s not as close to the original color grading as my color restoration is, but the colors are a thousand times more natural than the previous extended Blu-ray release.

I haven’t had a chance to watch The Two Towers or Return of the King yet, though. And those revisionist screencaps concern me (although, I’ll wait to give my opinion on them until after I’ve seen how widespread those color changes really are). But honestly, I don’t see a reason to be complaining about these two films either, even if they did change the look. Why? Because these two films on regular HD Blu-ray already looked exactly like the original release! They look amazing on just regular HD Blu-ray. The only film that looked horrendous was Fellowship of the Ring, and now it’s (mostly) fixed.

We have all three films accessible to us, officially, in a way that looks pretty great. That’s what matters for both the consumer and for film preservation.

Post
#1392198
Topic
Info: Guide for Working with 4K HDR Blu-ray Rips in SDR
Time

Deloreanhunter12 said:

44rh1n said:
In order to export in HDR you need to do the color grade in HDR. Which I doubt you’re able to do accurately unless you have a very very very expensive reference monitor, like the Sony BVM-X300 or the FSI XM310K. Or an Apple Pro Display XDR, if you’re on the cheap end. 🙂

Unless you’ve made a fanedit without any regrading, in which case you can leave all of the original HDR grading.

Ooooof, well that blows

I mean, it makes sense. You can’t really grade in HDR if you can’t see it in HDR. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Post
#1392003
Topic
Info: Guide for Working with 4K HDR Blu-ray Rips in SDR
Time

Deloreanhunter12 said:

I have a question for HDR exporting. When you are using the lut in premiere and doing an edit, what settings should I use to make sure that the video is exporting as HDR properly and not exporting just a REC.709 color space from the lut?

In order to export in HDR you need to do the color grade in HDR. Which I doubt you’re able to do accurately unless you have a very very very expensive reference monitor, like the Sony BVM-X300 or the FSI XM310K. Or an Apple Pro Display XDR, if you’re on the cheap end. 🙂

Unless you’ve made a fanedit without any regrading, in which case you can leave all of the original HDR grading.

Post
#1390859
Topic
44rh1n's "The Fellowship of the Ring" Extended Edition Color Restoration (Released)
Time

tlen said:

For me the only good thing of the entire remastered box is the really beautiful color regrade.

Apart colors, all the rest is plain 2k Upscale + outlaw DNR + Sharpening fraud.

There are plenty of screens (capsaholic and BR forum) so atrocius i can’t believe someone had the courage to ok it.

There is someone with the idea of regrade from the TE bluray with the UHD as reference?

Sounds like you actually need to watch it in 4K HDR before landing on this opinion. Haha.

It’s not upscaled 2K, except for the VFX. Everything else is true 4K, scanned from the original negative. That’s also why it’s so clean. Sure, there’s some DNR, but nowhere near the amount of DNR in other film releases (cough cough James Cameron cough cough). And it doesn’t even come close to the amount of DNR on the original theatrical Blu-ray. Plus, LOTR always had digital sharpening. It’s part of how it has always looked. Sharpening is even talked about in the color grading BTS in the appendices from 2001.

The HDR looks really great on a true HDR display, like my LG OLED. I definitely recommend checking it out on a true HDR screen, preferably one with Dolby Vision support.

My only complaints so far are that the DNR could have been done a bit less, and the color grading could have been a bit more similar to the original DVD release (with the added HDR, of course). Some scenes are less warm from the original grading (Rivendell), while others are warmer than the original grading (flashbacks and Galdalf’s confrontation with Saruman). And skintone/midtones seem to be a bit more lifted overall in bright scenes than in the original grading. I also noticed some blues in Gandalf’s beard during his scene with Frodo at the beginning of the film, which looks like a stray qualifier of the sky. Kind of annoying. Reminds me of the stray power window that used to be in this exact same scene on the old green-tinted Blu-ray. But that’s me nitpicking! Without comparing it to the original grading, it’s quite good.

Granted, so far I’ve only looked at Fellowship. It’s a vast improvement from previous official HD releases. I still have to look at Two Towers and Return of the King, though.

Post
#1390424
Topic
44rh1n's "The Fellowship of the Ring" Extended Edition Color Restoration (Released)
Time

Harmy said:

I also finally got a look at it. I still prefer the theatrical colors when looking at it side by side but on its own, it looks great. The only thing that bothers me is that to my taste, they went a little over board with dnr. It’s really good state-of-the-art dnr, so it didn’t really remove any detail but it looks a bit clinical and digital.

I agree, I still prefer the original color from the theatrical/extended DVD. But I have to admit the HDR is really nice.

Also, I actually noticed that there’s some really nice grain throughout the film, although it’s very fine, subtle grain. You’re right that they’ve definitely applied some DNR, (and more than I would have liked). But I’m grateful they didn’t try to scrub out the grain completely, because there’s still a light amount of it that’s present in the film.

The DNR does feel a bit more prominent on VFX shots, though. But that may just be a resolution thing.

Post
#1390401
Topic
44rh1n's "The Fellowship of the Ring" Extended Edition Color Restoration (Released)
Time

I finally had a chance look at the 4K HDR version, and it looks amazing! My comments above remain the same — it doesn’t look exactly like the original release, but it’s very much in the spirit of the original release. I have some reservations, but overall it looks really good, and seeing this film in HDR is a really cool experience. It’s super visceral! And of course, now that there’s no awful green pollution throughout the entire film, it’s finally watchable again!

Post
#1389014
Topic
44rh1n's "The Fellowship of the Ring" Extended Edition Color Restoration (Released)
Time

CatBus said:

Speaking of your avatar, for those who haven’t already seen this:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=18347156&postcount=5884

Top: Theatrical Blu
Middle: Extended Blu
Bottom: UHD

The tonemapping on that UHD still doesn’t look accurate to me. (It at least shows off the lack of the green tint though!)

Post
#1388537
Topic
44rh1n's "The Fellowship of the Ring" Extended Edition Color Restoration (Released)
Time

dranore said:

44rh1n said:
So the CGI is technically upscaled 2K (scanned from film though), and everything else is true 4K. It’s a very thorough remaster, from what I’ve read.

I realize this is quite subjective, but how well do you think the effects hold up?

You’re just looking at the HD version and not the 4k, but I’ve read a lot of people expressing concerns about how effects heavy shots would age once the refreshed live action material was set alongside it.

From what I’ve seen so far (and I haven’t watched the full film yet – waiting on the 4K to do that), it looks very good. The CGI appears more detailed than previous Blu-ray releases. I wouldn’t be surprised if a good amount of the 2K CGI was re-composited onto the 4K scanned negative (not re-rendered in 4K or anything like that, but just re-composited in 4K). Can’t verify that though, of course. One of my go-to shots to judge CGI is the CGI helicopter shot at about 1:50:09, and in this release it looked very good. Also the troll sequence at 2:15:00 and the Balrog sequence at 2:25:00 look quite detailed. It’s still very much 2000s-era CGI, though. Nothing will change that. But it looks good!

But again, my opinions could change once I’m able to pixel-peep on a higher bitrate source. Right now I’ve only been able to look at the iTunes version on my LG OLED while sitting on my couch, and it initially looks quite good. But I’m much more interested in watching the actual 4K HDR version, or even a 1080p SDR Blu-ray (if that releases, which hopefully it will). I’m afraid these first impressions I’ve been giving are a bit premature.

Post
#1388378
Topic
44rh1n's "The Fellowship of the Ring" Extended Edition Color Restoration (Released)
Time

dranore said:

Out of curiosity, what’s the verdict on how they handled the original digital negatives for effects?

All non-VFX shots were scanned in 4K from the original negative, and all VFX shots were scanned in 4K from the original VFX film-outs. So the CGI is technically upscaled 2K (scanned from film though), and everything else is true 4K. It’s a very thorough remaster, from what I’ve read.

Post
#1388295
Topic
44rh1n's "The Fellowship of the Ring" Extended Edition Color Restoration (Released)
Time

Since I’ve only been able to look at the iTunes version so far though, I’m not 100% certain about the texture. (Because the iTunes version is so compressed). However, it looks like there aren’t DNR issues, and there’s some nice grain. Which is good. But I’ll be analyzing the texture a lot more in-depth once I can my hands on the actual 4K Blu-ray.

Post
#1388202
Topic
44rh1n's "The Fellowship of the Ring" Extended Edition Color Restoration (Released)
Time

Nick66 said:

The new master of FOTR has already hit iTunes in both 4K HDR and 1080p. Not to purchase, but if you already own the HD versions and stream them it’s the new version that plays. Looks as if someone just may have put them up early.

In any event, the green tint is GONE!

WOW, you’re right! I just checked my iTunes copy, and it looks REALLY good! It’s still only HD for me (hopefully it upgrades to 4K for me eventually – iTunes usually does!), but it’s definitely the new master. It looks WAY better than the old green extended Blu-ray master!

It’s still quite different from the original DVD/theatrical release, but it looks amazing nonetheless. In fact, it’s actually an improvement in many ways (unlike the ugly green extended Blu-ray) to that original version. For example, it no longer has the fairly prominent magenta shift that the original DVD/theatrical release had in the highlights. So it now looks closer to The Two Towers and The Return of the King. And the green tint IS TOTALLY GONE!!

In other areas, I think it’s still a tiny bit worse than the original grade, though. I think it’s a tad undersaturated in some scenes. And some of the more warm, tungsteny scenes (such as Bilbo writing in his office) are a tad too warm to my taste. I liked the original version that was a bit more balanced and had some more color separation. And the scene in Bilbo’s house when he has a panic attack because he can’t find the ring, is still fairly dark as well. But at least you can actually see the colors in that scene again! His vest is actually red again! (In the old extended Blu-ray, that scene was much darker and his vest was black).

And the Rivendell scene is much less saturated than the original DVD/theatrical release. But I’m actually ok with it. It’s still warm, unlike the green version. I might even like this scene a tad more than the original version, because that scene was always very saturated in the original. But I don’t know. I’m kind of conflicted. I’m still married to the original look, I suppose.

Overall, most of the daylight exteriors look VERY close to the original release, though! It looks SO GOOD! I can’t verify this, but I would almost bet money that Peter Doyle returned to do this new color grade. It definitely looks like his handiwork!

I can’t wait to see this in HDR! I bet some of my saturation complaints won’t be quite as relevant with the HDR version, due to the wider gamut of the grade. I’m SO EXCITED!

I’m seriously SO HAPPY that it looks this good! It’s not perfect IMO, but it’s a thousand times better than the old green Blu-ray. It’s definitely at an acceptable state now, and I’m excited to watch it once I can get it in HDR. 😃

Also, for what it’s worth, I just scrubbed through The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey as well, and it also has a new grade. It’s a bit more analogue/film-print-like, and looks a tiny bit closer to the style of The Lord of the Rings trilogy! It’s less saturated than the original Blu-ray, which is great because I always thought the Hobbit films were a bit oversaturated compared to LOTR! I haven’t watched the Hobbit films since the third one was in theaters, so this might give me an excuse to rewatch those!

Thanks for letting me know, Nick66! This is FANTASTIC NEWS!

Post
#1384862
Topic
44rh1n's "The Fellowship of the Ring" Extended Edition Color Restoration (Released)
Time

KokoNigel said:

44rh1n said:

KokoNigel said:

44rh1n said:

Chewielewis said:

Im casting doubt on them doing 4K re-renders. At best it will be 4K recompositing for shots that are simple composites. I doubt they will be re-rendering any complex CGI.

All non-CGI shots have been scanned in 4K from the original negatives, and all CGI shots have been scanned in 4K from the original VFX film-outs. So yes, the CGI remains 2K (although scanned in 4K), but I believe it’s at least been re-composited with the newly-scanned 4K footage. So overall, it should be a nice uptick in quality!

That is, as long as they didn’t majorly eff up the color grading again! IMO, this NEEDS to have an HDR grade that’s very much in the spirit of the original theatrical/DVD look (although with higher dynamic range and a wider color gamut, of course). If it has a new revisionist grade – or if it has a stupid, dark green grade again – then I’m going to be pissed.

If you want to integrate the scenes from the 4K version (if it turns out good) into the regrade, you have to use Media Player Classic Home Cinema with MadVR to obtain tonemapped PNG screen grabs of the individual frames for the scenes and splice them into the project on DaVinci Resolve.

Nah, that’s the wrong way to go about it, IMO. I’d do a ProRes transcode of the whole film, without tone-mapping. That way I’d have the entire dynamic range and gamut of the footage at my disposal. Using footage that’s already been automatically tonemapped would be very restricting.

It probably won’t come to that though, at least not anytime soon. I don’t have as much free time as I used to when I made this restoration. (Plus, I have faith that this new 4K version will be good! If it ends up sucking though, I may change my mind and decide to do it, haha).

I believe that according to some website, DaVinci Resolve tonemapping has the correct luma but not the right chroma. However, I’ve seen that MadVR gives out both the correct chroma and luma, as seen in some 4K screenshots of modern films giving a similar result to the Blu-ray using MadVR.

Never heard or experienced that before. Plus, there are hundreds of ways to do tonemapping in Resolve. All tonemapping is, is converting a log space into a gamma space. It can be done with CSTs, with LUTs, with custom curves, with L/G/G wheels, or many other methods. That’s what’s so great about Resolve — you have the toolset to do whatever you want. 🙂

But more than anything, It’s just not a great idea to do tonemapping before additional color work. Color should be done in the wide gamut, before any tonemapping. You get much cleaner and flexible results that way. 🙂

Post
#1380306
Topic
44rh1n's "The Fellowship of the Ring" Extended Edition Color Restoration (Released)
Time

CatBus said:

44rh1n said:

(Plus, I have faith that this new 4K version will be good! If it ends up sucking though, I may change my mind and decide to do it, haha).

Your faith sounds about as steady as mine 😉

Haha yeah. Maybe “hope” is a better word for me to use! I’m definitely excited, but I’m also worried for sure. Cautiously optimistic, I suppose.

Post
#1380250
Topic
44rh1n's "The Fellowship of the Ring" Extended Edition Color Restoration (Released)
Time

KokoNigel said:

44rh1n said:

Chewielewis said:

Im casting doubt on them doing 4K re-renders. At best it will be 4K recompositing for shots that are simple composites. I doubt they will be re-rendering any complex CGI.

All non-CGI shots have been scanned in 4K from the original negatives, and all CGI shots have been scanned in 4K from the original VFX film-outs. So yes, the CGI remains 2K (although scanned in 4K), but I believe it’s at least been re-composited with the newly-scanned 4K footage. So overall, it should be a nice uptick in quality!

That is, as long as they didn’t majorly eff up the color grading again! IMO, this NEEDS to have an HDR grade that’s very much in the spirit of the original theatrical/DVD look (although with higher dynamic range and a wider color gamut, of course). If it has a new revisionist grade – or if it has a stupid, dark green grade again – then I’m going to be pissed.

If you want to integrate the scenes from the 4K version (if it turns out good) into the regrade, you have to use Media Player Classic Home Cinema with MadVR to obtain tonemapped PNG screen grabs of the individual frames for the scenes and splice them into the project on DaVinci Resolve.

Nah, that’s the wrong way to go about it, IMO. I’d do a ProRes transcode of the whole film, without tone-mapping. That way I’d have the entire dynamic range and gamut of the footage at my disposal. Using footage that’s already been automatically tonemapped would be very restricting.

It probably won’t come to that though, at least not anytime soon. I don’t have as much free time as I used to when I made this restoration. (Plus, I have faith that this new 4K version will be good! If it ends up sucking though, I may change my mind and decide to do it, haha).

Post
#1380195
Topic
44rh1n's "The Fellowship of the Ring" Extended Edition Color Restoration (Released)
Time

Chewielewis said:

Im casting doubt on them doing 4K re-renders. At best it will be 4K recompositing for shots that are simple composites. I doubt they will be re-rendering any complex CGI.

All non-CGI shots have been scanned in 4K from the original negatives, and all CGI shots have been scanned in 4K from the original VFX film-outs. So yes, the CGI remains 2K (although scanned in 4K), but I believe it’s at least been re-composited with the newly-scanned 4K footage. So overall, it should be a nice uptick in quality!

That is, as long as they didn’t majorly eff up the color grading again! IMO, this NEEDS to have an HDR grade that’s very much in the spirit of the original theatrical/DVD look (although with higher dynamic range and a wider color gamut, of course). If it has a new revisionist grade – or if it has a stupid, dark green grade again – then I’m going to be pissed.

Post
#1378756
Topic
44rh1n's "The Fellowship of the Ring" Extended Edition Color Restoration (Released)
Time

Harmy said:

https://www.redfox.bz/en/anystream.html
Maybe this could be used to get the Netflix theatrical version?
I got the trial version but can’t log into Netflix with it - perhaps it would work for someone in another region?

I don’t know for certain, but this kind of looks like another frontend to the same code used in FlixGrab (there are a few of them out there). We tried FlixGrab before, and while it did actually download the film, it wasn’t in its full bitrate for some reason. It had much more compression artifacting than when streamed directly from Netflix. So I decided it wasn’t really any better than the Blu-ray, due to compression.

If someone wants to try this and send me the file though, I’d be down to check it out! 😃

Post
#1376491
Topic
Harmy's STAR WARS Despecialized Edition HD - V2.7 - MKV (Released)
Time

oojason said:

A Conversation with Harmy, creator of the Star Wars Despecialized Edition - PART 1’:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjp3e9lj5Cs - at the HelloGreedo youtube channel. (52 minutes long)

 
 

'A conversation with HelloGreedo, Star Wars YouTuber - Part 2:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcpdACUYYCA - at the Petr Harmy youtube channel. (59 minutes long)
 

Those were fun to listen to. Thanks for sharing.