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Would you give up ESB in exchange for...?

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I know this one is going to be controversial. But let's just see what kind of results we wind up with, just for fun.

--SKot

EDIT:
To clarify a little bit, here's what this poll is saying:

If you could get rid of the prequels and Special Editions (i.e., erase them from history entirely), but only by getting rid of the sequels (ESB, ROTJ) as well, leaving just the original Star Wars film...would you do it?

Obviously those who don't have any problem with the prequels, or who couldn't live without ESB/ROTJ, are going to say "Hell no!!" Others who see Star Wars as the only necessary chapter are going to say "Hell yeah!!" Others are going to have more trouble deciding what they would do given the choice.

BTW, this poll idea is taken from this thread here.

Projects:
Return Of The Ewok and Other Short Films (with OCPmovie) [COMPLETED]
Preserving the…cringe…Star Wars Holiday Special [COMPLETED]
The Star Wars TV Commercials Project [DORMANT]
Felix the Cat 1919-1930 early film shorts preservation [ONGOING]
Lights Out! (lost TV anthology shows) [ONGOING]
Iznogoud (1995 animated series) English audio preservation [ONGOING]

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So wait... no trilogy, no prequels, only Star Wars? That's a definite no for me.

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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I don't really understand the question...it seems akwardly phrased. So if I get it right all we're left with is the original Star Wars 77? If so, no, cause I can ignore the prequels, the special editions and everything after the original trilogy. I don't need to seek it out nor am I forced to watch it.
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Well it's a "hell no" for me. We would be giving up a whole lot more than just ESB & ROTJ just to rid ourselves of the prequels & SE. Think of all the other movies and TV series that we would lose because the FX industry hadn't progressed far enough to make them possible. If only Star Wars existed the ILM may well have disbanded and certainly wouldn't have had the money to develop all the new techniques that gave us today's FX industry. Can you imagine what LOTR would have looked like having to use stop motion animation?

But FX aside just think of all the fan edits we would lose and this site wouldn't have existed in the first place for us to debate a subject like this.

ANH:REVISITED
ESB:REVISITED

DONATIONS TOWARDS MATERIALS FOR THE REVISITED SAGA

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I couldn't decide. This is hypothetical time machine stuff. The problem is that now I have read way too many crappy EU novels and seen the prequels that I can't judge accurately.

The tough thing is, Empire is a wonderful, brilliant film and a worthy sequel. The problem is that Star Wars (as it was envisioned and filmed in '77) is too self contained for a sequel. Making Vader into Luke's father was a necessary change to make a sequel (at least to make it interesting, at any rate) but it did so at the cost of changing the original story.
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I can't wait the hear the "yes" folks explain this one.
"Among many things I have to be thankful for are you, the fans. I know that some of you haven't liked every single thing that I've done with the saga, and that you have a strong sense of ownership over all things Star Wars. But take that passion and devotion and channel it into a creative project of your own."
-George Lucas
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Well, I am proud to say that I voted "yes". Let's look at why and this involves a little personal history:

I was a lucky kid to be born in 1971, and in 1977 I was all of 6 years old when Star Wars came out. That movie was my whole life for the next 5 or so years of my life, and when ever I think about what it was like then, a smile still comes to my face.

(For those of you who were there and remember, check out the old 1977 trailer at IMDB: Star Wars 1977 Trailer and tell me that doesn't put a smile back on your face: the Movie is called Star Wars, Vader is in that trailer for two seconds, Luke, the farmboy is the center of the story, wow!)

When I watch Star Wars in its original, unmolested form, it is still my favorite film of all time (and I am not a sci-fi geek at all, the rest of my top 10 list are films like Casablanca, Lawrence of Arabia, The Bridge on the River Quai, Taxi Driver, Paths of Glory, To Have and Have Not, The Godfather, The French Connection and Dr. Strangelove).

When The Empire Strikes Back came out, I loved it as much as the next fan (well maybe not quite, as I always prefered Star Wars, but I really, really loved it). I even can concede that from a technical, filmmaking POV, it might be the superior film; however, from a story point of view, it really is only half of a film--the conclusion of the story being told is found in Return of the Jedi, a film that I strongly disliked even when it first came out. In the end I feel that Star Wars tells a complete story by itself--a truly big, complete, wonderful story of a fantastic universe where good beats evil in a final confrontation (even the opening scroll indicates that the possibility of the Rebels destroying the Death Star would be a conclusive victory). The personal soap opera like story of the Skywalker family that the sequels (and later the prequels) tell is just not nearly as compelling to me. In fact, I have to pretend I never heard it to appreciate the quality of story and storytelling Star Wars is unique in the series for reaching. I never liked or was convinced by the whole story of the evil Vader's redemption--it goes against my own beliefs and values that say one is always responsible for ones actions, even if you say your sorry on your deathbed. So while I can acknowledge that ESB is an excellent film, I do not find it to be a very good story (if this makes any sense).

As for the SEs and PT, I find that they only distract and detract from the original. The juxtaposition of 1990s and 2000s era effects in a film from 1977 is completely distracting and damages my suspension of disbelief; I can buy any one effects convention (none of them are particularly realistic in themselves, they are all, afterall conventions), but when you start mixing them up it just makes you think about them. Every film and fashion is dated by it own time, I have never felt this was a bad thing. Being true to its own time makes it feel true, mixing and matching makes it appear false and ergo harder to accept.

So in the end, I am really a Star Wars '77 fan, first and foremost. So while I enjoy ESB, I would give it up in an instant for a quality copy of my favorite film of all time to watch on DVD whenever I wanted to.

Further the lack of quality of RotJ and most of the prequels and the downright absurdity of most of the EU has hurt the credibility of the original film to many outside hardcore fandom. This is a loss for our cinematic culture as I feel very strongly that Star Wars deserves a place up there with the greatest films of all time, something that the franchise juggernaut is beginning to deny it. And this is far more "tragic" than the story of Darth Vader.
The movie from 1977 was called Star Wars, not Episode IV, not A New Hope, not Star Wars Episode IV: a New Hope, just plane Star Wars
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I edited the first post to explain the poll a little better, since I can change the poll question itself after posting it.

I just realized that if ESB never happened, Kenner would have had time to do a lot more toys and figures from the original Star Wars. Suddenly I feel even better about my "Yes" vote.

--SKot

Projects:
Return Of The Ewok and Other Short Films (with OCPmovie) [COMPLETED]
Preserving the…cringe…Star Wars Holiday Special [COMPLETED]
The Star Wars TV Commercials Project [DORMANT]
Felix the Cat 1919-1930 early film shorts preservation [ONGOING]
Lights Out! (lost TV anthology shows) [ONGOING]
Iznogoud (1995 animated series) English audio preservation [ONGOING]

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No way. Look, at some point in the future, there will be an official release of Star Wars 77, or a really good bootleg. It will then be possible to watch the movie as it was. All the other stuff that's happened since will melt away as you watch the dusty, empty Mos Eisley in full natural clarity, without the distraction of the finest Roger Rabbit cartoon shit 1996 had to offer. As for the mainstream perception of Star Wars, it doesn't really matter, because if we're in here talking about one movie or six, we're still just dorks.
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No ESB?! No Boba Fett? No Walkers? No asteroids?! No way! Also the "Making of ESB" piqued my own interest in moviemaking without which .....
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I voted Yes, as well. My explanation I already explained in the "Lucas can't find home for TV" thread, which is where I assume this thread was born from. Basically, I've had it with all the shit that the Star Wars series has become. All the comics, all the video games, all the books, they all suck and have turned it into another unremarkable sci-fantasy series; on top of that, the SE has overwritten the original and the prequels all sucked and totally sullied the reputation of the series. Even ROTJ I don't really like all that much, I mean its good but its not all that remarkable either. The only really good sequel is ESB, that was really the first and last great spin-off from 1977's Star Wars, and even though its great to me all the shit thats piled up over the years has outweighed and buried it as well. Instead of Star Wars just being this absolutely great classic of cinema, the best parts of Lawrence of Arabia and Wizard of Oz combined, its the fourth episode in an overbloated saga about a creepy child-killer without any developed personality or interesting qualities. What happened to Star Wars after 1983 has slowly and surely eroded what was once considered one of the most important films ever made in history to a mere "fourth episode" in which some fans of the series say its so-so and prefer the hollow, Disney-character-infested prequels. As much as I love ESB, I would be willing to sacrifice it to save Star Wars.

The Secret History of Star Wars -- now available on Amazon.com!

"When George went back and put new creatures into the original Star Wars, I find that disturbing. It’s a revision of history. That bothers me."

--James Cameron, Entertainment Weekly, April 2010

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I've been following this conversation in the other thread, and I definitely sympathize with the viewpoint. Ultimately, though, I voted no without much hesitation. I was introduced to the Star Wars Trilogy in that form. Like many others here, after becoming more aware of the real history of Star Wars, I began to see the original movie in a new context, now renewed to me as a standalone movie, which is was, even though I'd been fed the "one movie that had to be cut into three parts" line from George and believe it for years. So now I've finally been able to experience Star Wars for what it originally was: an amazing good vs. evil morality tale set into space. And it works great that way, maybe even better than in the trilogy context; equal to at the very least. But every time I watch Star Wars, I immediately follow with the other two movies. It's just that when I watch it now, I don't think of them as parts I, II, and III to a trilogy. I think of Star Wars as a film, and the other two as sequels to that film. But I love ESB far too much to let it go, and I don't really have to keep from thinking of all the crap that's come since, just like I don't have to think about all the other series when I watch the original series of Star Trek.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: adywan
Can you imagine what LOTR would have looked like having to use stop motion animation?

Yes, because I am sure that we would still be using stop motion beyond the year 2000 if it hadn't been for ILM. In fact, I doubt that if it had not been for ILM, then we should have never landed on the moon either. I realize ILM has done a lot, I am not over looking that. But give mankind some credit, if ILM hadn't been around to accomplish all it had as far as FX go, then somebody else would have.

Originally posted by: JediRandy
I can't wait the hear the "yes" folks explain this one.


What exactly do the "yes" folks need to explain Randy? This poll is taking what OC, Zombie and I have said in another thread, pulled it out of context, then presented it to everyone else as a simple poll. The results of this poll really don't have a lot to do with our line of reasoning, nor have any effect on it. It doesn't prove we are "insane" or "shocking". In fact, if I stumbled across this poll without the context of the other conversation, and if it were only about the matter of not having the SE or the PT (which is not quite what we were trying to get at in the other thread) I would not have even given the matter much thought, I would simply vote "no" without even questioning myself.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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This thread has so much irony in it, because in one sense because of ESB's greatness, it has opened the door to most of us being OT fans from 77-83. If ESB were anywhere near the quality of ROTJ, SW would have died off and it would have been the predictable movie series: Classic Original, inferior sequels. But ESB defied the odds, and is one of the greatest sequels of all-time, so it gives the SW series that rare 1-2 punch of greatness.

But the downer to the success of ESB is that it gave Lucas total power of SW for the future, because remember he didn't own the rights to SW'77, only the sequels. So what did we get after the success of ESB? Ewoks and a pretty good ROTJ, that is only watched by most of us cause it caps of the trilogy. We then get the SE with Greedo shooting first, Hayden in ROTJ, and the OOT MIA, relegated to Laserdisk quality. We get TPM with Jar Jar & Jake Lloyd, we get the AOTC romance, and then we get the horrid ROTS with the dumbest reason for Anakin to turn after all the years. Throughout that we get EU crap, Ewoks cartoons, Droids cartoons, and now more TV shows to milk the cow. All because ESB defied the odds and changed a generation of movie fans already changed after 1977 and the first SW movie.

In saying that, if Lucas could remaster the OOT for DVD or HD in the future, all that post1983 crap I could deal with, cause I can totally forget about. But as long as I don't have a decent quality OOT to watch on my HDTV, I don't think it was all worth it.
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I voted "no", because I think all movies should be preserved, whether the brilliant "Star Wars" (which has not been preserved), or the crappy prequels (which, knowing GL, are doomed to the same fate), or "Plan 9 From Outer Space". So I can't in good conscience vote to preserve one, while voting to destroy the others. Destroying films is what we are decrying GL for doing.

Having said that, I think that anyone who sits down as a blank slate, assessing the 6 movies, as movies, would have to conclude that Star Wars, in its original form, rates an unqualified A+, while ESB ranks about a B (already by ESB things were starting to get a little contrived). Then it drops off fast, with ROTJ about a C and the prequels all garnering F-minuses. That's not to say they aren't all fun - even the prequels are great eye candy. But as classic movies, let's be honest here... as utterly brilliant as "Star Wars" was (and it is my favorite movie of all time), the whole "saga" is a laughable catastrophe which started out "iffy" with ESB and has only gotten worse and worse with each additional episode. The walkers were cool, though

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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Its not that I think they should be destroyed or whathaveyou--far from it. It is merely that had I the choice of determining the course that history took, I would have preferred it that Lucas moved on to other things after Star Wars and never made any sequels. That is really what the question is posing.

As, CO pointed out quite correctly, ESB was a double-edged sword in that on the one hand it gave us a great film but on the other set Star Wars along the course that has it ended up where it is today, which ultimately I think I regret that it took.

So while Lucas' never returning to make sequels to Star Wars would have in effect robbed us of ESB, I think what we would have gained--or more accurately, never lost in the first place--is in some ways equally as powerful as ESB. Because now, although we can use our imagination to pretend that there are no sequels when we watch the original version of Star Wars, you can't unknow what you know, because even if you try really hard theres no way to totally trick your mind into forgetting about Yoda, Lando, Han and Leia in love, any of that stuff, even if you can put it out of your mind and try to just get caught up in the story of the first film. For most people, by the simple fact that the sequels exist, they will never be able to totally watch Star Wars as it was meant to be watched in 1977, and although what one would gain through this may seem small on one hand, I feel that that film was so powerful that even something as small as that nearly amounts to ESB. And then there is the fact of the SE, PT, EU, etc--those things are more easily ignored, but I still feel as though the world of cinema would be such a better place had they not had the chance to be made in the first place. So on those grounds, and others I won't go into, had I the power to choose how history went I think I would rather just have Star Wars as a totally kick-ass classic film from 1977.

The Secret History of Star Wars -- now available on Amazon.com!

"When George went back and put new creatures into the original Star Wars, I find that disturbing. It’s a revision of history. That bothers me."

--James Cameron, Entertainment Weekly, April 2010

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I voted no. Here's the way I look at it. In an ideal world, Lucas would've never made the SE and he would've made the PT, ya know, good. He wouldn't have every single shot using a visual effect of some sort, that's a better way of saying it. However, the prequels are what they are. Keeping the SE as his definitive version while also remastering the OOT for us would not have been ideal, but it would have been at least acceptable. You've got to remember that next to no one involved with the actual making of the movies made any noise when the SE's were released, not even Irvin Kershner. The thing that really irks me is how Lucas felt free to alter Jedi when its director had been dead for ten years and everyone justified it by saying "oh, well Lucas pretty much directed Jedi anyway, it's more his movie than Marquand's."

Sorry to sound whiny people, but I'd prefer to have my cake and eat it too. Give me the original versions of all six movies remastered and then Lucas can go do whatever he wants to them.
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Um........NO!?!?

I was only 6 when Star Wars was released, and I really didn't get in to SW until after ESB was released. ROTJ was the only film of the OT that I saw on opening day (I saw SW and ESB theatrically for the first time a year earlier in 1982).

I ADORE ESB and ROTJ. They are way too much a part of me and a part of my life to give up for the sake of having 3 other crappy movies not exist.

I remember how much fun I had anticipating the release of ROTJ and how exciting it was to sit in the theater and watch it for the first time (and not have anyone spoil the plot twists or the ending for me before I saw it). I wouldn't give that up for anything.

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I would never give up ESB to simplify the Star War's movie experience. I'd give up RotJ simply because I know a better film could could be made to finish the original trilogy, but even that would be hard for me.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: C3PX
Originally posted by: adywan
Can you imagine what LOTR would have looked like having to use stop motion animation?

Yes, because I am sure that we would still be using stop motion beyond the year 2000 if it hadn't been for ILM. In fact, I doubt that if it had not been for ILM, then we should have never landed on the moon either. I realize ILM has done a lot, I am not over looking that. But give mankind some credit, if ILM hadn't been around to accomplish all it had as far as FX go, then somebody else would have.

Originally posted by: JediRandy
I can't wait the hear the "yes" folks explain this one.


What exactly do the "yes" folks need to explain Randy? This poll is taking what OC, Zombie and I have said in another thread, pulled it out of context, then presented it to everyone else as a simple poll. The results of this poll really don't have a lot to do with our line of reasoning, nor have any effect on it. It doesn't prove we are "insane" or "shocking". In fact, if I stumbled across this poll without the context of the other conversation, and if it were only about the matter of not having the SE or the PT (which is not quite what we were trying to get at in the other thread) I would not have even given the matter much thought, I would simply vote "no" without even questioning myself.


Yeah, someone else would've invented the long lasting lightbulb too... Edison just happened to be in the right place at the right time...

And what do the yes folks need to explain? Is this a message board or what? It it INSANE to ask for an explanation and/or reasoning for their vote? Or should this just be a 29 vote mix of yes and no posts?


"Among many things I have to be thankful for are you, the fans. I know that some of you haven't liked every single thing that I've done with the saga, and that you have a strong sense of ownership over all things Star Wars. But take that passion and devotion and channel it into a creative project of your own."
-George Lucas
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Originally posted by: JediRandy
I can't wait the hear the "yes" folks explain this one.
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I dunno, just in the way that you wrote it it seems more like a "haha you got pwnd!!!!1" than a true expression of interest in our explainations as to why we believe what we do. As for you not being able to wait, all four of us who voted yes gave the exact same reason why in here as we did in the other. So really rather than going through the waiting that you couldn't, you could have just reread our posts in the other thread. This very reason is why I infered that you were wanting us to explain why we are so vastly out numbered on the poll, rather than explain why we said yes, which you already knew.

If I was mistaken then I am sorry.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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I voted "No". Some of my best childhood toys were from ESB and ROTJ (Like the AT-AT, Snowspeeder, Imperial shuttle, Rancor, and B-wing).

If the question is "would you give up the prequels in exchange for..." my answer would be YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
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Originally posted by: C3PX
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Originally posted by: JediRandy
I can't wait the hear the "yes" folks explain this one.
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I dunno, just in the way that you wrote it it seems more like a "haha you got pwnd!!!!1" than a true expression of interest in our explainations as to why we believe what we do. As for you not being able to wait, all four of us who voted yes gave the exact same reason why in here as we did in the other. So really rather than going through the waiting that you couldn't, you could have just reread our posts in the other thread. This very reason is why I infered that you were wanting us to explain why we are so vastly out numbered on the poll, rather than explain why we said yes, which you already knew.

If I was mistaken then I am sorry.


I could care less if you've gotten pwnd! I am interested in the reasoning as to why erasing one of the greatest flicks of all time would be worth it if it meant no more CGI Jabba the Hutt
"Among many things I have to be thankful for are you, the fans. I know that some of you haven't liked every single thing that I've done with the saga, and that you have a strong sense of ownership over all things Star Wars. But take that passion and devotion and channel it into a creative project of your own."
-George Lucas
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Originally posted by: JediRandy


I could care less if you've gotten pwnd! I am interested in the reasoning as to why erasing one of the greatest flicks of all time would be worth it if it meant no more CGI Jabba the Hutt


JR, I think there are some fans here, not all, who geniunely just love SW and don't really care for the sequels, including ESB. As I have said, I know many people, older then me who were in high school when SW came in 1977, and they really don't look that highly towards ESB or even care about ROTJ & the PT, and they answer yes in a heartbeat.

I think there are two camps here who would think of voting yes, ones that truly only love SW'77 and have never gravitated to the sequels/prequels, and ones that are kinda tainted by the whole post 1983 SW stuff, and just think it has gone to hell in a handbasket.

I personaly think it is a tough question, and I am still inclined to say no, cause I do love ESB alot, and still enjoy ROTJ as part 3 of the greatest trilogy ever. But the fact that I have an HDTV and the SE are the only ones that are truly watchable, quality wise on it, still drives me crazy being a lifelong fan.