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Would it not be amazing if we got a Darth Vader movie directed by Christopher Nolan? — Page 2

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ray_afraid said:

Certainly a valid concern.

It’s a lame concern. This is the biggest franchise on planet Earth. There’s no way to make a new StarWars anything without a potion of the fanbase hating it. Just make the movie you wanna make.

I only said that because of The Last Jedi. I like TLJ, and I’m glad Rian Johnson got creative control to make the movie he wanted to make, but it’s true… that didn’t go well for him. So I understand why any director would treat appeasing such a vitriolic fanbase as a daunting task.

“Remember, the Force will be with you. Always.”

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 (Edited)

Regardless of your political leanings, I don’t think it’s very good to simplify one side into being a bunch of complete monsters who do evil things just for shits and giggles. That’s not how real life conflict works.

It’s a fantasy movie though.

I would like for my fantasy movies to contain the fantasy where good people can be good without it being part of a larger, much more important narrative that being good means forgiving and uplifting absolute monsters

The sympathetic Vader/Kylo figures are ultimately THE focal point of all 9 Skywalker Saga movies. There might be something between that focal point and why ultimately the saga is unsatisfying dramatically and emotionally, is all I’m saying.

I also never said “no one in a fascist state should be allowed any sympathetic motivations” (although… why are we worried about fictional fascists being coddled here?) what I actually said was the “redemption” narrative, especially when that redemption is solely centered on genocidal fascists, could take some time off.

Star Wars came out shortly after the country (barely) survived a Nixonian hellscape (and it can be argued it wasn’t defeated, it just metastacized into its current form) and that simplistic take on good and evil is historically cited as one of THE biggest reasons it was a feel-good four-quadrant success. In that instance, it WAS very good to simplify one side.

We could use that now, is what I’m saying. Instead of yet another iteration on the “redeem the bad guy” narrative.

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Broom Kid said:

The sympathetic Vader/Kylo figures are ultimately THE focal point of all 9 Skywalker Saga movies. There might be something between that focal point and why ultimately the saga is unsatisfying dramatically and emotionally, is all I’m saying.

If you’re saying that Darth Vader’s redemption in the OT was “unsatisfying dramatically and emotionally”, I’m afraid we weren’t watching the same movies. Kylo’s character arc was bad because they wrote his character badly, not because he was a “sympathetic fascist”.

Star Wars came out shortly after the country (barely) survived a Nixonian hellscape (and it can be argued it wasn’t defeated, it just metastacized into its current form) and that simplistic take on good and evil is historically cited as one of THE biggest reasons it was a feel-good four-quadrant success. In that instance, it WAS very good to simplify one side.

We could use that now, is what I’m saying. Instead of yet another iteration on the “redeem the bad guy” narrative.

But I could also argue that in a time of such heated political debates, with both sides seemingly willing to start a second US civil war at the flip of a switch, I don’t know if a movie that says “your enemies are beyond all hope, kill them all” is what we really need right now. Lord of the Rings and other related fantasy stories got away with it, because their villains were literally inhuman embodiments of evil. But when the villains are living flesh-and-blood humans, the whole “kill all the villains” plot line seems a bit wrong.

Trevorrow’s Duel of the Fates script, despite all its flaws, did do one thing right: the idea of a stormtrooper rebellion. It portrays these normally faceless villains as being helpless puppets of an evil regime, and allows them to get a second chance and fight for good instead of evil. That’s downright inspiring, and I’m incredibly disappointed we didn’t get it in the final movie. That sort of stuff is what I want to see in Star Wars, not another simplistic story were everyone on the wrong side suffers horrible deaths.

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StarkillerAG said:
But I could also argue that in a time of such heated political debates, with both sides seemingly willing to start a second US civil war at the flip of a switch, I don’t know if a movie that says “your enemies are beyond all hope, kill them all” is what we really need right now.

This is twice you’ve tried to make what I said into a completely separate thing and I still don’t understand why you’re doing it.

Lord of the Rings and other fantasy related stories get away with it because they’re good stories executed well, which is all any story needs to “get away” with almost anything. I legit don’t understand why a Star Wars fan would immediately, automatically, reject the notion that it would be nice for a new Star Wars movie to NOT be so hung up on a redemption narrative.

And yes, Darth Vader’s Redemption in the OT was mostly unsatisfying dramatically. The satisfaction in the OT’s end wasn’t Vader’s redemption, but Luke’s success. Return of the Jedi is the least satisfying of the three and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that it’s the one that became a story about saving Darth Vader. Luke’s success is what made it work, not Vader’s redemption. The two are interlinked, but they’re not the same thing. Kylo’s arc was bad because it was poorly written, executed poorly, and in the end, the focus on his arc at the expense of almost everyone else’s story made that story unsatisfying. Which is why I said It’d be nice if there was a new Star Wars movie that wasn’t so focused on redeeming the genocidal idiot bad guy for once.

I don’t get how your argument ever really addresses my suggestion that a Star Wars movie not focused on a “redeem the bad guy” narrative could be fun to watch, and that giving the “redeem the bad guy” narrative a rest is a valid option they could pursue. I simply would like to see that again. It worked pretty well back in 1977, for example. Star Wars doesn’t only have to be the one kind of story, and I’d like to see a more simple good v. evil story in this fantasy movie.

I don’t see what’s so wrong with that.

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Broom Kid said:

StarkillerAG said:
But I could also argue that in a time of such heated political debates, with both sides seemingly willing to start a second US civil war at the flip of a switch, I don’t know if a movie that says “your enemies are beyond all hope, kill them all” is what we really need right now.

This is twice you’ve tried to make what I said into a completely separate thing and I still don’t understand why you’re doing it.

You were the one who started with the whole “what we need in Star Wars right now” thing, I was just going along with it.

Lord of the Rings and other fantasy related stories get away with it because they’re good stories executed well, which is all any story needs to “get away” with almost anything. I legit don’t understand why a Star Wars fan would immediately, automatically, reject the notion that it would be nice for a new Star Wars movie to NOT be so hung up on a redemption narrative.

I’m not rejecting it, you’re misinterpreting me. I just don’t see why redemption stories are always bad, or why villain characters shouldn’t be allowed redemption.

And yes, Darth Vader’s Redemption in the OT was mostly unsatisfying dramatically. The satisfaction in the OT’s end wasn’t Vader’s redemption, but Luke’s success. Return of the Jedi is the least satisfying of the three and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that it’s the one that became a story about saving Darth Vader. Luke’s success is what made it work, not Vader’s redemption. The two are interlinked, but they’re not the same thing. Kylo’s arc was bad because it was poorly written, executed poorly, and in the end, the focus on his arc at the expense of almost everyone else’s story made that story unsatisfying. Which is why I said It’d be nice if there was a new Star Wars movie that wasn’t so focused on redeeming the genocidal idiot bad guy for once.

That’s completely subjective. I personally thought that ROTJ was mediocre because of the first two acts, and the part where Vader gets redeemed is actually the best part of the movie. I also thought that TROS was disappointing because the story was rushed and Palpatine’s resurrection was contrived, both of which had nothing to do with Kylo’s redemption. They could have still had a redemption for Kylo without creating any of the movie’s issues.

I don’t get how your argument ever really addresses my suggestion that a Star Wars movie not focused on a “redeem the bad guy” narrative could be fun to watch, and that giving the “redeem the bad guy” narrative a rest is a valid option they could pursue. I simply would like to see that again. It worked pretty well back in 1977, for example. Star Wars doesn’t only have to be the one kind of story, and I’d like to see a more simple good v. evil story in this fantasy movie.

I don’t see what’s so wrong with that.

I agree with that, and I can see why a simplistic good-vs-evil story would be appealing. Avengers Endgame had that kind of story, and it made insane amounts of money at the box office. I just don’t see why you should dismiss the redemption story entirely either. In my opinion, it can definitely be executed well.

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StarkillerAG said:

You were the one who started with the whole “what we need in Star Wars right now” thing

No, I didn’t. Please stop doing this. It’s not a large thread, the posts aren’t hard to find, they’re all right there.

I just don’t see why redemption stories are always bad, or why villain characters shouldn’t be allowed redemption.

I never said either of these things either. Just that I would like a Star Wars movie where this wasn’t a key aspect for once. There was never anything on my part that said “redemption stories are bad” or “villains shouldn’t get redemption.” I’m not dismissing redemption stories entirely, I’m saying I, myself, would like to not see one in Star Wars for awhile, even just for the novelty of not having that aspect play such a big role.

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Broom Kid said:

StarkillerAG said:

You were the one who started with the whole “what we need in Star Wars right now” thing

No, I didn’t. Please stop doing this. It’s not a large thread, the posts aren’t hard to find, they’re all right there.

Yes, you did. I just said something about how political leanings aren’t a factor in my opinions. You’re the one who started with the comparisons to Nixon, and saying that we need a movie like the one you want in these times. Like you said, the posts are literally right there, anyone can check to see I’m telling the truth.

I just don’t see why redemption stories are always bad, or why villain characters shouldn’t be allowed redemption.

I never said either of these things either. Just that I would like a Star Wars movie where this wasn’t a key aspect for once. There was never anything on my part that said “redemption stories are bad” or “villains shouldn’t get redemption.” I’m not dismissing redemption stories entirely, I’m saying I, myself, would like to not see one in Star Wars for awhile, even just for the novelty of not having that aspect play such a big role.

But you implied that ROTJ and TROS were bad because the villains got redemption, and you described the idea of a redemption arc as “uplifting idiotic genocidal fascists”. That’s pretty loaded language, and it gave me the idea that you don’t like redemption stories at all.

But we should probably stop now. I never intended this argument to get so heated.

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ray_afraid said:
I’d have zero interest in a Darth Vader movie no matter who was involved.

You just never know. When they first announced The Mandalorian, my interest was low. I thought it would be something I watched while waiting for the next movie or a series I was more interested in. Now it’s become one of my favorite Star Wars things ever.

If someone writes a compelling story with interesting characters, people will enjoy it. If it relies on just the presence of Darth Vader, then probably not so much.

Vader is synonymous with all things Star Wars, but other than a few brief cameos, we’ve only really seen Vader in the Original Trilogy. I’d like to see a little more Vader with modern film making.

I’d be interested in the time directly after RotS, way before Rebels and even before Fallen Order. There’s so much discovery going on during this time. People would be just beginning to see exactly what life under Palpatine’s new Empire is like. Any surviving Jedi or Padawans would just be figuring out the breadth of Order 66 and what they should do next. Vader of course is just embracing all he has done and what his new role is.

The Separatists have been wiped out, and the Rebellion isn’t even close to forming. The Inquisitors wouldn’t be a thing yet either, so Vader would be the main villain, not the cameo role he’s been in since the OT.

I think it could work, either a movie or a short 4 or 6 episode mini-series. Again, like anything else it would depend upon the writing and not relying on just the appearance of Vader as the appeal.

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It could go either way, Rogue One turned out great in my opinion, but even though I enjoyed Solo, it missed on a few things in my opinion.

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StarkillerAG said:

Yes, you did.

No. I really didn’t. My posts are all right there, man. I’m not gonna keep doing this.

Sorry.

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Broom Kid said:

StarkillerAG said:

Yes, you did.

No. I really didn’t. My posts are all right there, man. I’m not gonna keep doing this.

Sorry.

I’m not going to either. Do we really need to keep doing this childish “No you didn’t, yes you did” sort of thing? I was already done with the argument, I said I didn’t want it to get this hostile.

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ray_afraid said:

Rodney-2187 said:

It could go either way, Rogue One turned out great in my opinion

Rouge One told a story I was interested in hearing (more interested in telling, actually).
The mystery wasn’t what was intriguing there. With Vader, the mystery is everything.

I agree. I would rather have not known anything about the Kessel Run. They could have done a movie about Solo and left that part unseen. The same with Vader. Just because they make a movie and Vader is the main villain, doesn’t mean any mystery has to be spoiled. I’d say his appearance in Rogue One added greatly to his menacing quality. I’ll take more of that. As for a story worth telling, that time period is ripe for developing characters and stories.

Christopher Nolan though? Not sure. I love Interstellar and Inception, but I can’t imagine what a Nolan Star Wars movie would be like.