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What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion. — Page 15

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JadedSkywalker said:

If not for Anakin being a greedy dumbass, i’d blame his fall completely on the prequel Jedi. They did everything they could to make him bottle up his feelings and be afraid of them, separate him from his only family and teach him that human bonds of compassion and affection were abnormal.

The Jedi were like a weird cult.

Had he been freed as a slave on Tatooine, he either would have been a pilot on a freighter making grain or water shipments, or a moisture farmer if not conscripted into the Imperial Navy. And probably not become Darth Vader, though its hard to say.

At the end of the day, I think that Anakin’s fall can’t be entirely blamed on the Jedi, but it can’t be entirely blamed on Anakin either. I think that Anakin, Palpatine and the Jedi are all equally responsible for what happened. Trying to blame only one of them is too simplistic, in my opinion.

On the one hand, what happened is obviously Anakin’s fault, because he acted selfishly and recklessly. Nobody forced him to do what he did. He chose to do all those terrible things, despite knowing that they were wrong. So, of course he is to blame for what happened. On the other hand, though, I think that it is also fault of the Jedi Order. Yes, their teachings about letting go are fundamentally correct. You can love a person, but you can’t possess that person, it is unhealthy to think that you can be in control of everything. All of this is correct, of course. But, forbidding romantic relationships was a mistake, because having a romantic relationship doesn’t automatically mean being overly-attached to someone. You can be in love with a person without being obsessive, and you can be able to handle your emotions properly. The Jedi took the “no attachment” rule too literally. They tried to help Anakin, they were fundamentally good people. But they had a limited understanding of romantic relationships, precisely because they didn’t allow them. They were so blinded by their dogma, that they didn’t realize that Anakin was not like the other younglings, he needed more than traditional Jedi teachings. And I’m more than sure that, if the Jedi didn’t forbid romantic relationships, they could have taught Anakin how to handle his relationship with Padmé in a healthy way from the very beginning, thus preventing what happened. And well, of course it’s also Palpatine’s fault, because he manipulated Anakin for a whole decade, making him become a very proudful person, making him think he should always be in control of everything, and thus making him want to have more and more power.

So, I think that what happened is kind of everyone’s fault. As I said, I think that trying to blame only a single person (or a single group of people) is too simplistic.

“Sometimes we must let go of our pride, and do what is requested to us.”
–Anakin Skywalker, Star Wars Episode II - Attack of the Clones

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I have multiple layers of opinions and it’s hard to put them into a coherent whole.

Layer 1 - I am disappointed at what they did to the Expanded Universe, and at how they squandered their own potential. The main characters, the Jedi, the Force, the Clone Wars, etc. could have all been more interesting and closer to their pre-1999 counterparts in the original trilogy and the EU. This gets even worse the longer time goes on because the errors it made in depicting the Jedi and the Force have only gotten more extreme in the EU and in Disney canon until now very few people remember how they’re supposed to be.

Layer 2 - I really enjoyed them as a kid. I had a blast going to the theaters and watching them over and over on VHS and DVD. I was fully involved in all the video games and other extra material coming out around all the Clone Wars stuff, so I understand why people of my generation want them so badly to be “misunderstood masterpieces” or something, even though they’re not. My conclusion I’ve come to is that I really like The Phantom Menace and Revenge of the Sith, and I really hate Attack of the Clones. I think the complaints most people have about the movies (myself included), other than the Jar Jar and bad humor in TPM, can be traced back to Attack of the Clones. The characterizations, massive gaps in logic, and CGI failings are truly awful and generated a lot of bad will.

Layer 3 - I have very specific ideas about what people think about the movies as movies. I don’t think that they’re meaningless or shallow cash grabs with no artistry, but I don’t think they’re Secretly Genius or Hidden Masterpieces or Flawed Gems or whatever gobbledygook. You can look at them as pieces of pop entertainment or as serious films or both, but you don’t have to go to extremes either way. They have good parts and bad parts. I think that ROTS is objectively better than the other two but I understand if people disagree.

Layer 4 - I have very specific ideas about what people think about the movies’ history. I was there. They were disliked and considered disappointing. People hated Jar Jar. People hated young Anakin. People hated Anakin/Padme. People thought everything with Jango Fett was pandering. Younger millennials and some zoomers who weren’t even alive at the time try to pull revisionism over this and say that it was a small minority of hater fans and everyone else loved it, but this is absolutely not the case. It’s strange but this is the only site where you can still get honest opinions about this. The movies are not popular now because they’re good, even if you believe they are good. They’re popular due to a mix of nostalgia, memes, and expanded media projects like video games. A lot of this was successful astroturfing. The biggest thing is The Clone Wars show, which isn’t even that good, that “fixes the prequels.” The same people who tell you that they’re great movies that hold up will also tell you to watch eight seasons of animated shows and read extra books and comics to get the whole story.

Layer 5 - I have very specific ideas about what people think about the ideas in the movies. In real life, as a very religious person, I don’t agree with the concept of total celibacy (as in abstaining from marriage.) However, I understand what monks are and why they do what they do, and I have lots of respect for monks and nuns and for other religious traditions in general. I believe that in Star Wars, the Jedi are objectively correct about the Force and how it works. I think that in universe, their rules were a good idea.
This is extra complicated because of Layer 1. The Jedi should never have been like this. It’s too confusing for people to grasp and it wasn’t done well, and it’s inferior from a storytelling point of view to everything that came before. If I put that aside though, I feel compelled to tell people that the Jedi were actually right about almost everything, within the context of the movies.
The hatred people have for the Jedi, the “cult” accusations, and the apologia the fans do for genocide really bothers me. It comes from a place of hatred and stereotypes for religion in real life. It also comes from pseudoscientific pop psychology ideas inherited from Freud, that emotions are inherently sexual, that they “build up” and “explode” if not given “release” and that self-control is unhealthy. It’s like people who say that the problem with school shooters is that they just weren’t exposed to enough porn. It’s disgusting.
So I credit Lucas for having some inkling of these ideas but I blame him for not actually grasping them or depicting them correctly. I think if the movies did any real-life harm (other than the harassment of some of the actors) then this is it. Anakin killing the younglings is meant to be ugly and sad, but it’s also in very poor taste. Not for the unintentional humor, for the unintentional messaging that they deserved it in some way.

Layer 6 - The dialogue and the memes are funny.

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Vladius said:

Layer 4 - I have very specific ideas about what people think about the movies’ history. I was there. They were disliked and considered disappointing. People hated Jar Jar. People hated young Anakin. People hated Anakin/Padme. People thought everything with Jango Fett was pandering. Younger millennials and some zoomers who weren’t even alive at the time try to pull revisionism over this and say that it was a small minority of hater fans and everyone else loved it, but this is absolutely not the case. It’s strange but this is the only site where you can still get honest opinions about this. The movies are not popular now because they’re good, even if you believe they are good. They’re popular due to a mix of nostalgia, memes, and expanded media projects like video games. A lot of this was successful astroturfing. The biggest thing is The Clone Wars show, which isn’t even that good, that “fixes the prequels.” The same people who tell you that they’re great movies that hold up will also tell you to watch eight seasons of animated shows and read extra books and comics to get the whole story.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to attack you or anything. But I think that you are being guilty of the same extremism you are criticizing. You said: “You can look at them as pieces of pop entertainment or as serious films or both, but you don’t have to go to extremes either way”, which is totally correct. But then, when it comes to the history of the movies and their appreciation by the fandom, you did the same thing you are preaching against: generalizing. Sure, I’m one of those millennials who were not around at the time, I became a Star Wars fan in 2018. But I don’t think that saying that everyone hated the movies is fair. I think that it is more fair to say that the fanbase felt very divided about them. I have known a lot of people who liked them from the beginning, just as I have known a lot of people who disliked them from the beginning. There were a lot of fans who liked the Prequels in the 2000s, just as there were a lot of fans who hated them in the same time period. Saying that everyone hated the movies is unfair to the people who always liked them. And they exist, denying their existence is unfair too. Furthermore, I have known a lot of people who became fans of the Saga only in recent years, watched the Prequels as adults, and liked them a lot. I’m one of them. So, to say that they became popular in recent years only because of nostalgia and the memes is a bit unfair too. I liked them when I first watched them. And I was already 18 when I watched them, so I didn’t have any nostalgia for them.

“Sometimes we must let go of our pride, and do what is requested to us.”
–Anakin Skywalker, Star Wars Episode II - Attack of the Clones

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Time

Spartacus01 said:

Vladius said:

Layer 4 - I have very specific ideas about what people think about the movies’ history. I was there. They were disliked and considered disappointing. People hated Jar Jar. People hated young Anakin. People hated Anakin/Padme. People thought everything with Jango Fett was pandering. Younger millennials and some zoomers who weren’t even alive at the time try to pull revisionism over this and say that it was a small minority of hater fans and everyone else loved it, but this is absolutely not the case. It’s strange but this is the only site where you can still get honest opinions about this. The movies are not popular now because they’re good, even if you believe they are good. They’re popular due to a mix of nostalgia, memes, and expanded media projects like video games. A lot of this was successful astroturfing. The biggest thing is The Clone Wars show, which isn’t even that good, that “fixes the prequels.” The same people who tell you that they’re great movies that hold up will also tell you to watch eight seasons of animated shows and read extra books and comics to get the whole story.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to attack you or anything. But I think that you are being guilty of the same extremism you are criticizing. You said: “You can look at them as pieces of pop entertainment or as serious films or both, but you don’t have to go to extremes either way”, which is totally correct. But then, when it comes to the history of the movies and their appreciation by the fandom, you did the same thing you are preaching against: generalizing. Sure, I’m one of those millennials who were not around at the time, I became a Star Wars fan in 2018. But I don’t think that saying that everyone hated the movies is fair. I think that it is more fair to say that the fanbase felt very divided about them. I have known a lot of people who liked them from the beginning, just as I have known a lot of people who disliked them from the beginning. There were a lot of fans who liked the Prequels in the 2000s, just as there were a lot of fans who hated them in the same time period. Saying that everyone hated the movies is unfair to the people who always liked them. And they exist, denying their existence is unfair too. Furthermore, I have known a lot of people who became fans of the Saga only in recent years, watched the Prequels as adults, and liked them a lot. I’m one of them. So, to say that they became popular in recent years only because of nostalgia and the memes is a bit unfair too. I liked them when I first watched them. And I was already 18 when I watched them, so I didn’t have any nostalgia for them.

I didn’t say everyone. I also said that I grew up with them and liked them, if you’ll remember. Most people also loved certain aspects that were incredibly popular, like the podrace and Darth Maul. What I said is that the idea that the people who were disappointed or who didn’t like them were a minority is untrue. This entire website exists because of the widespread frustration with the special editions and the prequels.

I don’t know your own personal story so I can’t tell you what happened to you. But their revival in popularity is absolutely due to those things I said. It’s:
*People who grew up with them getting older and looking back
*People first watching and enjoying the Red Letter Media prequel reviews, then the backlash against them
*Contrarianism; blogs, forums, and YouTube video essays that get into politics or film theory to hype up their more intellectual aspects as “underrated”
*Familiarity with the Clone Wars/prequel time period due to video games, specifically Lego Star Wars and Star Wars Battlefront 1 and 2
*The Clone Wars animated show and Dave Filoni stuff “fixes the prequels”
*Memes and funny dialogue allow people to enjoy both the good parts and the bad parts; the bad parts are just plugged into a “so bad it’s good” ethos or postmodern internet sense of irony so that they don’t detract from the overall whole

Again this doesn’t apply to everyone, I’m talking about the general trend. I watched all of this happen in real time.