Unusual Sequel Trilogy Radical Redux Ideas Thread — Page 111

I disagree strongly. Here are some of the numerous benefits to this change:

1. It’s not a copy-paste of “I am your father”. Instead of the reveal simply being a relative is evil, the reveal is that you, as a person, are extremely evil in what is basically another life. This gets into the whole nature vs. nuture debate. Rey’s challenges can’t be dismissed as easily by Luke anymore because nobody has ever gone through what she is experiencing.
2. It makes it abundantly clear how Palpatine was resurrected. Ya know, the thing that people most take issue with in the film. As a bonus, it’s more heavily implied what Snoke is exactly compared to Ascendant v4.
3. TLJ only places a hard emphasis on Rey’s parents. Notice how Kylo only says he was shown who her parents are - not who she is. Beyond that, everything he says must be taken as assumptions he is making. Let’s take a look at Kylo’s following line: “You come from nothing. [Therefore] you’re nothing.” He’s only saying that because any normal person would think that since the people who raised her and gave birth to her are nobodies, she must be one, as well. Regular TROS straight up retcons this because the son of the Emperor is not nobody - end of story. This change is a clever way of bypassing a complete retcon for the sake of a Rey Palpatine reveal. Rey’s mother gave birth to a clone of Palpatine, but both parents are genetically unrelated to her.
4. TLJ’s mirror cave sequence is a stupid scene originally. This change elevates it into an actual hint to her entire backstory and the trajectory of the trilogy. We see that Rey is one among an endless line of clones. Rey asks to see her parents. She doesn’t have actual parents, so she sees herself.
5. There is a reason why Rey’s parents die on Jakku (or are there to begin with). They were looking for Lor San Tekka and his village so that their child could be saved by Luke. This ties back to the very first scene of the entire trilogy.
6. Leia accepting Rey into her family is more profound. Of course the daughter of Darth Vader would be willing to accept the granddaughter of Sidious. But a clone of Sidious? That’s something else.
7. It doesn’t require any further changes beyond this scene and what’s already present in Ascendant v4.

To be clear, I don’t believe Rey being a chosen one is a bad idea. I was a big supporter of it just a few weeks ago. But when I think about what kind of edit to this movie I want to keep for the rest of my life, it would be one that respects canon to a reasonable degree for the sake of compatibility, and also doesn’t remove chunks of the film throughout. The movie desperately needs more padding throughout (please release the deleted scenes Disney) so removing stuff is only going to make that feel even worse.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

I disagree strongly. Here are some of the numerous benefits to this change:

1. It’s not a copy-paste of “I am your father”. Instead of the reveal simply being a relative is evil, the reveal is that you, as a person, are extremely evil in what is basically another life. Rey’s challenges can’t be dismissed as easily by Luke anymore because nobody has ever gone through what she is experiencing.

The thing is, it’s clear Rey is not a 1:1 clone of Palpatine, since, you know, she’s not a younger Ian McDiarmid. She would just have been a creation based off of Palpatine’s genes, at that point what’s the difference from being her decendant? Nothing says she’ll become just like him since she’s already not exactly like him.

Furthermore, and this is an issue that would plague any version of the film that implies a genetic relation to Palpatine: the villain of the movie isn’t Palpatine, it is the countless generations of Sith spirits that once resided within him and now inhabit his rotting clone. It makes no sense to imply Rey is destined to become evil just because she’s genetically related to Palpatine, when the reason he’s so evil are those countless spirits that took over him. This is also why I like the chosen one idea. I mean, it was prophesized the chosen one would “destroy the Sith”, and now we have a movie where the villain is the literal embodiment of all the Sith, it just makes too much sense.

2. It makes it abundantly clear how Palpatine was resurrected. Ya know, the thing that people most take issue with in the film. As a bonus, it’s more heavily implied what Snoke is exactly compared to Ascendant.

I don’t think this does much to make Palpatine’s return more clear, now we’re adding a bunch of extra clones that look nothing like him, and that apparently have nothing to do with the installations on Exegol? And they weren’t grown on a vat like we see on Exegol, Nevarro or Kamino, but were somehow bred inside random women?? if anything it makes it more weird and confusing.

3. TLJ only places a hard emphasis on Rey’s parents. Notice how Kylo only says he was shown who her parents are - not who she is. Beyond that, everything he says must be taken as assumptions he is making. Let’s take a look at Kylo’s following line: “You come from nothing. [Therefore] you’re nothing.” He’s only saying that because any normal person would think that since the people who raised her and gave birth to her are nobodies, she must be one, as well. Regular TROS straight up retcons this because the son of the Emperor is not nobody - end of story. This change is a clever way of bypassing a complete retcon. Rey’s mother gave birth to a clone of Palpatine, but both parents are genetically unrelated to her.

Again this does nothing to avoid undoing the big reveal in TLJ, we’re just dealing with semantics at this point, “well Kylo only kinda assumed Rey was a nobody, he couldn’t have possibly known Rey was a genetic experiment done by Sith cultists plotting to bring back Palpatine’s spirit… but his parents were really nobodies!”, how is that any better than Kylo not knowing some random junk trader he saw was the son of Emperor Palpatine, who chose to become a random junk trader?

4. TLJ’s mirror cave sequence is a stupid scene ordinally. This change elevates it into an actual hint to her entire backstory and the trajectory of the trilogy. Rey asks to see her parents. She doesn’t have actual parents, so she sees herself.

Well, like I previously said, this would also work if Rey was a vergence born from the Force, with no real parents.

5. There is a reason why Rey’s parents die on Jakku (or are there to begin with). They were looking for Lor San Tekka and his village so that their child could be saved by Luke. This ties back to the very first scene of the entire trilogy.

Like I said before, I don’t think there needs to be an explanation as to why two junk traders were on a junkyard planet, yeah it’s a coincidence Lor San Tekka happened to be hiding there in TFA, but I don’t think such a small plot convenience deserves a big explanation two movies later.

6. Leia accepting Rey into her family is more profound. Of course the daughter of Darth Vader would be willing to accept the granddaughter of Sidious. But a clone of Sidious? That’s something else.

This is also not such a sustantial difference for the same reasons as point 1.

7. It doesn’t require any further changes beyond this scene and what’s already present in Ascendant v4.

And this is the lesson, this wouldn’t require further changes because it doesn’t fundamentally change much from Rey just being Palpatine’s granddaughter. It doesn’t really solve the issues people have with that reveal, it just adds more lore dump exposition and turns Rey into a weird Sith breeding experiment.

Burbin said:

The thing is, it’s clear Rey is not a 1:1 clone of Palpatine, since, you know, she’s not a younger Ian McDiarmid. She would just have been a creation based off of Palpatine’s genes, at that point what’s the difference from being her decendant? Nothing says she’ll become just like him since she’s already not exactly like him.

Furthermore, and this is an issue that would plague any version of the film that implies a genetic relation to Palpatine: the villain of the movie isn’t Palpatine, it is the countless generations of Sith spirits that once resided within him and now inhabit his rotting clone. It makes no sense to imply Rey is destined to become evil just because she’s genetically related to Palpatine, when the reason he’s so evil are those countless spirits that took over him. This is also why I like the chosen one idea. I mean, it was prophesized the chosen one would “destroy the Sith”, and now we have a movie where the villain is the literal embodiment of the Sith, it just makes too much sense.

You’re being nitpicky on the first point. The fact of the matter is that the majority of her DNA would come from Palpatine (maybe 95%). A normal child would only share about 50 percent, a grandchild 25 percent, etc. Your second point doesn’t make sense. Palpatine wasn’t “all the Sith” until he was summoned with the rest of his pals from Force hell. Everything he did in the prequels and originals he did because that’s the kind of dude he was. Plus, canon has never made it clear who exactly is in control of his body in TROS. We know all the Sith are in there somewhere, but he really does seem to be speaking and using the same mannerisms as Palpatine did in life.

I don’t think this does much to make Palpatine’s return more clear, now we’re adding a bunch of extra clones that look nothing like him, and that apparently have nothing to do with the installations on Exegol? And they weren’t grown on a vat like we see on Exegol or Kamino, but were somehow bred inside random women?? if anything it makes it more weird and confusing.

That’s the point - it’s supposed to be weird science, anyway. Confusing? No. It’s simply adding a timeline to the development of Palpatine’s return. At first, some Sith cults tried to develop Palpatine clones outside of Exegol using this method, but they couldn’t conjure his spirit into them. Meanwhile, whatever they did on Exegol succeeded. Once Palpatine was aware of what transpired, he wanted all these other experiments killed off.

Again this does nothing to avoid undoing the big reveal in TLJ, we’re just dealing with semantics at this point, “well Kylo only kinda assumed Rey was a nobody, he couldn’t have possibly known Rey was a genetic experiment done by Sith cultists plotting to bring back Palpatine’s spirit… but his parents were really nobodies!”, how is that any better than Kylo not knowing some random junk trader he saw was the son of Emperor Palpatine, who chose to become a random junk trader?

I was under the assumption that the visions Kylo and Rey received were supernatural through the Force in some way. Because clearly they are seeing into the future, as well. So the idea is that Kylo would have been able to sense through the Force, or the Force would have told him, if there were something special about Rey’s father. Regardless of whatever path he chose in life. And please don’t say “oh, but he would have sensed Rey’s nature then” because the purpose of his vision, and that whole movie, is Rey’s obsession with her parents, not her own nature.

And this is the lesson, this wouldn’t require further changes because it doesn’t fundamentally change much from Rey just being Palpatine’s granddaughter. It doesn’t really solve the issues people have with that reveal, it just adds more lore dump exposition and turns Rey into a weird Sith breeding experiment.

I meant that it doesn’t require removing even more things from the film or modifying more lines. Although I have a feeling you already knew that. Back to the main point. It doesn’t fundamentally alter her reveal - yes. And that’s the entire point. All it does is make it more poignant and devastating. Although it seems you disagree with that. It’s okay though. We’re just throwing ideas around here.

Nev is right that we are having a Rey Nobody vs. Rey Palpatine debate at this point. It’s not worth continuing it anymore. This thread is currently discussing ways to improve the Rey Palpatine version.

I see, I caught up with like 10 pages from this thread and I saw this idea spring from discussion of ‘nobody cut’ ideas, so I was just giving my own thoughts as to why I don’t think it works in making Rey a ‘nobody’ in any meaningful way. It does make more sense as a change that just alters the nature of ‘Rey Palpatine’, though I still think trying to reconcile Rey Palpatine with the revelations from TLJ is an impossible task, might as well just bite the bullet & don’t dwell too much on the logistics of it all, the more you try to explain it the less sense it makes.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Burbin said:

The thing is, it’s clear Rey is not a 1:1 clone of Palpatine, since, you know, she’s not a younger Ian McDiarmid. She would just have been a creation based off of Palpatine’s genes, at that point what’s the difference from being her decendant? Nothing says she’ll become just like him since she’s already not exactly like him.

Furthermore, and this is an issue that would plague any version of the film that implies a genetic relation to Palpatine: the villain of the movie isn’t Palpatine, it is the countless generations of Sith spirits that once resided within him and now inhabit his rotting clone. It makes no sense to imply Rey is destined to become evil just because she’s genetically related to Palpatine, when the reason he’s so evil are those countless spirits that took over him. This is also why I like the chosen one idea. I mean, it was prophesized the chosen one would “destroy the Sith”, and now we have a movie where the villain is the literal embodiment of the Sith, it just makes too much sense.

You’re being nitpicky on the first point. The fact of the matter is that the majority of her DNA would come from Palpatine (maybe 95%). A normal child would only share about 50 percent, a grandchild 25 percent, etc. Your second point doesn’t make sense. Palpatine wasn’t “all the Sith” until he was summoned with the rest of his pals from Force hell. Everything he did in the prequels and originals he did because that’s the kind of dude he was. Plus, canon has never made it clear who exactly is in control of his body in TROS. We know all the Sith are in there somewhere, but he really does seem to be speaking and using the same mannerisms as Palpatine did in life.

I’m pretty sure the idea behind the essence transfer is an explanation for the rule of two, basically once a Sith apprentice overthrows his master he becomes possesed by his spirit, and the spirits from every Sith master before him. This would mean that every generation each new Sith master would become a bigger amalgamation of “all the Sith”. This would’ve happened to Palpatine before we ever even see him in episode I, when he killed Darth Plagueis in his sleep and became the new master, and this amalgamation of evil spirits is what we saw as Palpatine in all the movies. Vader broke the cycle because he didn’t strike down Palpatine in anger, but rather through compassion for his son, thus destroying the Sith as it was foretold. But Palpatine’s spirit was so powerful after generations of essense transfer that he was able to endure and cheat death through the dark science experiments on Exegol.

I don’t think this does much to make Palpatine’s return more clear, now we’re adding a bunch of extra clones that look nothing like him, and that apparently have nothing to do with the installations on Exegol? And they weren’t grown on a vat like we see on Exegol or Kamino, but were somehow bred inside random women?? if anything it makes it more weird and confusing.

That’s the point - it’s supposed to be weird science, anyway. Confusing? No. It’s simply adding a timeline to the development of Palpatine’s return. At first, some Sith cults tried to develop Palpatine clones outside of Exegol using this method, but they couldn’t conjure his spirit into them. Meanwhile, whatever they did on Exegol succeeded. Once Palpatine was aware of what transpired, he wanted all these other experiments killed off.

It IS confusing to add more strange elements to Palpatine’s return, inseminating random women with Palpatine clones is just a crazy thing to introduce through a few bits of dialogue, specially since it apparently didn’t work and Palpatine just ended up coming back through the experiments on Exegol anyway. At least cloning through lab vats had some setup with Kamino and even more now through The Mandalorian, but breeding random women is just really out there.

Again this does nothing to avoid undoing the big reveal in TLJ, we’re just dealing with semantics at this point, “well Kylo only kinda assumed Rey was a nobody, he couldn’t have possibly known Rey was a genetic experiment done by Sith cultists plotting to bring back Palpatine’s spirit… but his parents were really nobodies!”, how is that any better than Kylo not knowing some random junk trader he saw was the son of Emperor Palpatine, who chose to become a random junk trader?

I was under the assumption that the visions Kylo and Rey received were supernatural through the Force in some way. Because clearly they are seeing into the future, as well. So the idea is that Kylo would have been able to sense through the Force, or the Force would have told him, if there were something special about Rey’s father. Regardless of whatever path he chose in life. And please don’t say “oh, but he would have sensed Rey’s nature then” because the purpose of his vision, and that whole movie, is Rey’s obsession with her parents, not her own nature.

Yeah, you can argue their visions aren’t 100% trustworthy, that’s what the people who wrote TROS would argue, but it doesn’t take away that this revelation is the big resolution to the story in TLJ. Rey’s obsession with finding her parents, Snoke and Kylo’s obsession with lineague and bloodlines, and ultimately the audience’s obsession with getting the “big reveal”, it all culminates with a revelation that totally shatters everyone’s conceptions and leaves them with a new perspective. To take that and go “well, actually, that wasn’t the whole picture, the reality is this totally different thing happened” is just an absolute slap in the face to the entire previous film.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

I disagree strongly. Here are some of the numerous benefits to this change:

1. It’s not a copy-paste of “I am your father”. Instead of the reveal simply being a relative is evil, the reveal is that you, as a person, are extremely evil in what is basically another life. This gets into the whole nature vs. nuture debate. Rey’s challenges can’t be dismissed as easily by Luke anymore because nobody has ever gone through what she is experiencing.
2. It makes it abundantly clear how Palpatine was resurrected. Ya know, the thing that people most take issue with in the film. As a bonus, it’s more heavily implied what Snoke is exactly compared to Ascendant v4.
3. TLJ only places a hard emphasis on Rey’s parents. Notice how Kylo only says he was shown who her parents are - not who she is. Beyond that, everything he says must be taken as assumptions he is making. Let’s take a look at Kylo’s following line: “You come from nothing. [Therefore] you’re nothing.” He’s only saying that because any normal person would think that since the people who raised her and gave birth to her are nobodies, she must be one, as well. Regular TROS straight up retcons this because the son of the Emperor is not nobody - end of story. This change is a clever way of bypassing a complete retcon for the sake of a Rey Palpatine reveal. Rey’s mother gave birth to a clone of Palpatine, but both parents are genetically unrelated to her.
4. TLJ’s mirror cave sequence is a stupid scene originally. This change elevates it into an actual hint to her entire backstory and the trajectory of the trilogy. We see that Rey is one among an endless line of clones. Rey asks to see her parents. She doesn’t have actual parents, so she sees herself.
5. There is a reason why Rey’s parents die on Jakku (or are there to begin with). They were looking for Lor San Tekka and his village so that their child could be saved by Luke. This ties back to the very first scene of the entire trilogy.
6. Leia accepting Rey into her family is more profound. Of course the daughter of Darth Vader would be willing to accept the granddaughter of Sidious. But a clone of Sidious? That’s something else.
7. It doesn’t require any further changes beyond this scene and what’s already present in Ascendant v4.

To be clear, I don’t believe Rey being a chosen one is a bad idea. I was a big supporter of it just a few weeks ago. But when I think about what kind of edit to this movie I want to keep for the rest of my life, it would be one that respects canon to a reasonable degree for the sake of compatibility, and also doesn’t remove chunks of the film throughout. The movie desperately needs more padding throughout (please release the deleted scenes Disney) so removing stuff is only going to make that feel even worse.

Agree with all of these.

Idea, don’t know if this has been brought up yet: How about cutting the Sequel Trilogy into a mini series, with intros TCW:R style?
That could open up cool new possibilities.

I like the prophecy angle for Rey Nobody, I just think you’d have to really get the point across that she could become evil like Anakin, as telling someone that they’re destined to destroy the sith doesn’t really connect to Rey’s inner darkness immediately. I think that could play great off of Rey’s fear of not being able to live up to the legend of the Skywalkers, though. I also really like the originality of the dyad concept, focusing just on that and maybe connecting the dyad to an ancient sith prophecy involving the rule of two would be an interesting inversion of Anakin’s arc, and could explain that Rey’s link to Kylo’s mind allowed her to intrinsically use his knowledge of the force in previous movies.

I’m still pretty sure Palpatine was just himself throughout all of his life. Essence transfer requires that ritual we saw at the end of TROS. And we all know Palpatine only killed his master in his sleep. That was the whole reason he likely did it - his master wouldn’t have enough time or awareness to even attempt a transfer like that.

Back to the Rey background idea. I’m thinking it might actually be a better idea that Rey is still a Palpatine clone/experiment, except she came from a vat like the rest of them. Rey’s parents got drawn into the Sith cult because they’re desperate nobodies, adopt her, and have a change of heart - going on the run. So this way it isn’t the first time that Rey has been adopted.

“Rey….wherever you are…You are hard to find.

“You are hard to get rid of.”

“I pushed you in the desert because I needed to see it…I needed you to see it…who you are. Darkness is in your blood. Rey…”

“You’re lying.”

“You were right…your parents were no one. Vulnerable to the alluring promises of a Sith cult.”

“Don’t!”

“Your barren mother… she took a liking to their prize jewel…”

“I don’t want this!”

“…you were adopted from the hoard of the Sith.”

“No!”

“But their actions had awakened a sleeping dragon…”

(Rey sees the vision of her parents and her abandonment.)
“My Love…be brave.”
“You’ll be safe here…I promise.”
“Come back! Nooo!”

“They paid for your protection…in more than one way.”

“Stop talking.”

“Rey…I learned what happened to them.”

(Cutaway to heroes capture)

“Your parents sought sanctuary on Jakku, chasing rumors of a congregation dedicated to Skywalker’s Jedi. But they couldn’t escape the sweeping shadow of the Sith.”

(Rey sees her parents get killed.)

“So that’s where you are.”

“You know why the Emperor’s always wanted you dead. I’ll come tell you.”

…

“Why did the Emperor come for me? Why did he want to kill a child? Tell me.”

“Because his spirit chose another vessel, rendering the others created by his followers as threats to his rule. Rey, you… are his clone.”

“You were created to sit upon the throne of the Sith, a vessel for the Emperor’s conjured spirit. But what he couldn’t foresee was our connection in the Force. We can kill him, Rey, destroy the Sith…and bring a new order to the galaxy.”

(Removes his helmet)

“You know what you need to do. You know.”

“I know.”

Jar Jar Bricks said:

I’m still pretty sure Palpatine was just himself throughout all of his life. Essence transfer requires that ritual we saw at the end of TROS. And we all know Palpatine only killed his master in his sleep. That was the whole reason he likely did it - his master wouldn’t have enough time or awareness to even attempt a transfer like that.

Palpatine tells Rey she straight up can’t put an end to the Sith, the way Vader did. Because of her hatred, her anger, if she tried to kill him his spirit would pass unto her. That’s all that’s needed for the essense tranfer, to strike down with hatred. The “ritual” at the end is just a big show for his followers, but it just boils down to Rey killing him with hatred. It makes sense that’s how the Sith spirits would pass down through generations, as their creed is driven by hate, anger and greed, the apprentice is always looking to overthrow the master for their own selfish reasons, only to be consumed and fueled by the anger and greed of all the Sith that came before. I imagine most would be unaware of the essense transfer until after they’ve already been consumed by it. Then they would look for a new apprentice to continue the cycle.

And I think this fits Palpatine’s character in the previous movies perfectly well, he’s always been presented as the personification of pure evil, he can’t be redeemed or reasoned with, he’s the darkness that must be destroyed. It also explains how he could’ve survived, as his spirit was more than that of one simple man. Makes more sense than him dragging the other spirits from Sith hell for this movie only. It also adds a new layer to Palpatine trying to cheat death, as this is not something original to him, or even Plagueis, but rather something the Sith had been working towards for generations, it makes his manipulation of Anakin even more devious, and it explains why the Sith must be destroyed to bring balance to the Force, as their greed has led to this unnatural ability to carry their essence from host to host, refusing to let go.

hinventon said:

I like the prophecy angle for Rey Nobody, I just think you’d have to really get the point across that she could become evil like Anakin, as telling someone that they’re destined to destroy the sith doesn’t really connect to Rey’s inner darkness immediately. I think that could play great off of Rey’s fear of not being able to live up to the legend of the Skywalkers, though. I also really like the originality of the dyad concept, focusing just on that and maybe connecting the dyad to an ancient sith prophecy involving the rule of two would be an interesting inversion of Anakin’s arc, and could explain that Rey’s link to Kylo’s mind allowed her to intrinsically use his knowledge of the force in previous movies.

Yeah, I think if we went with this angle it would have to be mostly through subtext, most of it is already there in the movie, Rey being the sole heir to the Jedi, taking the Skywalker name, destroying the Sith and bringing back balance to the Force, it’s all already there. But for her to have a struggle the focus would have to be on her being the true heir of Vader, basically everything Kylo thought he was meant to be. We already have her struggle with the dark and her visions, Kylo could reveal she’s the one that’s destined to take over the Sith, basically the way the current nobody cut of Ascendant already works, only now we reveal she was destined to take Vader’s place from the start.

Yeah, I suppose that makes sense. But Palpatine must have been evil enough to kill a mentor of his in his sleep. Plus whatever other bad things he did as a Sith apprentice. By your logic, the apprentice would still be himself fully. So he’s undeniably evil even before becoming the master of the Sith. Maybe we’ll see more about all of this in the upcoming Acolyte show.

Was reading some of the recent threads and had a thought that I wanted to throw out there. Try to erase preconceived ideas that you might have and really try to consider some of my reasoning. Even if that reasoning takes you to a different conclusion I’d love to hear it.

I feel like a theme that edits of the ST can emphasize is this idea of the “Star Wars” cycle. That the forces of good and evil, the dark and the light, perpetually rise and fall. Edits like Nev’s Starlight do a great job at turning TFA’s weaknesses into strengths by making the movie’s repetition of ANH feel more purposeful. Obviously fans watch it and think, “wow, this is all happening AGAIN?”, but I think the movies can be strengthened if it feels like that’s an intentional point rather than a consequence of not having any better ideas.

With Kylo, for example, I think it would be interesting if in TFA, Kylo’s motivations are illustrated either through a vision from Vader’s mask, or through the voice of Vader’s “ghost”, telling him if the Jedi are not destroyed, there will be a “civil war without end”. So Kylo believes he could bring peace to the galaxy by ending the endless conflict between the Jedi and the Sith.

In TLJ, this is already expanded upon by Kylo without necessarily having to add anything (but I think it could be expanded on more by Luke but that’s for another post). Clearly Snoke sees Kylo as the heir to Vader, the continuation of the Sith, but we discover Kylo has other plans. After he kills Snoke, he makes his motivations clear to Rey in that he wants to end both the Jedi AND the Sith in order to bring a new order to the galaxy. This is presumably in hopes of stopping the endless Force war that has plagued the universe. Maybe Kylo is just tired of being tied to that destiny/legacy and wants to start over. After Rey rejects him, it is unclear if his plans have changed. On Crait, it still seems his goals are to end the Jedi.

With TROS, I have been thinking about Kylo’s motivations more in regards to this idea. Both the theatrical movie and many edits play it so Kylo is going through the motions of being allied with Palpatine, but clearly has goals of his own. In some ways this feels like a repeat of TLJ, with Kylo offering Rey basically the same thing he did in the last movie. Why are we to believe Rey would accept it now? It also isn’t clear how Kylo’s vision of galactic dominance is different from Palpatine’s. Really, they are just two slightly different versions of the same flavor without any additional context. Kylo walks like a Sith and talks like a Sith. Again, maybe that’s the point, but Rey nor anyone else addresses this really.

It made me wonder, what genuinely would be Kylo’s reaction to discovering that his whole life has been manipulated by Palpatine? The guiding voice of his grandfather, his mentorship from Snoke and Kylo’s apparent victory over him, were all just a part of Palpatine’s plan. We never really see Kylo reflect on this revelation. In reality, you would think he would be hit even harder by this discovery than Rey would be by her own revelation. Palpatine’s lies has made Kylo do terrible things, kill people he loved. You could argue Kylo is just in denial, or just trying to be stoic in the face of the truth. Maybe he’s desperately holding on to what semblance of control he has left, but this isn’t really explored much.

I also considered what this reveal of Palpatine means for the audience? Obviously, a lot of people were like “what? Really?” It also made people question what the point of Anakin being the chosen one was. Did he not bring balance to the Force? If he gets killed again would it even matter since he came back before?

With that in mind, I wonder how it would look if Kylo embodied those questions the audience would naturally have. I think the film tried to have their cake and eat it too by having both Palpatine back as a big bad, but also try to still give Kylo agency. But it feels muddled. What if they just leaned into it and had Kylo react the opposite way? When Kylo learns the truth, what if Kylo just loses all hope in his goals and submits to fate? He’s trapped and his destiny is to be Palpatine’s successor. It’s what he has been groomed for his whole life. He can accept or die. Accept, or all he did was for nothing. Sunk cost fallacy.

In a way, fans became pessimistic/nihilistic about Star Wars and the future of the franchise with the ST, some after TLJ but definitely most after TROS. I feel like a part of that had to do with Palpatine’s return, among other things, so it could be interesting if Kylo reached his lowest point in this episode, becoming totally nihilistic in a similar way after discovering that his whole life and purpose was basically a lie, and that nothing he really does matters because evil can’t be destroyed.

I like the idea that after seeing how Kylo chose Rey over Snoke, Palpatine would try to get Kylo to join him in a different way by saying that he can turn Rey if he brings her to Exegol, but I dunno if that would present problems or not. Otherwise, he could tell Kylo that she isn’t just his enemy, but his competitor, and that if she reaches Exegol she will turn. But, only one of them can rule. And if she makes it, she’ll kill Kylo.

One downside of Kylo “sort of” serving Palpatine is that this makes Kylo similar to Vader in Return of the Jedi, but again, maybe that is the point. Arguably that similarity already exists in the film as-is. And he could still be made different in other ways. Perhaps in the hangar scene, he could tell Rey that only one of them can rule, and to save her friends, she will kill him and take the throne. One of them will have to kill the other (or maybe they’ll both inevitably join Palpatine if you go the other route) But when Kylo offers her to join him, he could be actually say something like, “Palpatine cannot be stopped. If we kill him, he may just return again. But we could run away, together, and be free from all of this.”
I feel like that would be a surprising thing for Kylo to say, but it makes sense. Kylo has discovered his whole life has been orchestrated. He has been a slave to Palpatine’s plans, like his grandfather. But he sees a way out with Rey. At this point you could understand that all he might want is freedom. “I want to be free of this pain”. He wants to be free from these machinations, fate, destiny, ideas that have haunted him and his family for generations.
It also parallels Padmé and Leia. In Ep3, Padmé wanted Anakin to run away with her when she confronted him on Mustafar. In Ep6, when Luke reveals to Leia their family connection, Leia urges Luke to run far away and leave so he doesn’t have to confront Vader.

So basically, Kylo’s motivations go like this across the trilogy:
-> Destroy the Jedi to break the Jedi-Sith Cycle
-> Destroy the Jedi AND the Sith to break the Jedi-Sith Cycle and bring a new order to the galaxy
-> Once he realizes his motivations have just been lies, he rightly says, “Fuck this shit I’m out.” (Ironically, introducing Palpatine as the man behind the curtain of Kylo’s past made Kylo lose a bit of his agency. If Kylo’s new plan was just to totally escape and get away from Palpatine, it would kind of give Kylo some of that agency back in a way that isn’t just repeating what he did with Snoke.)
-> After his duel with Rey, potentially considering death when looking out over the roaring waves below the Death Star wreckage?
-> After Leia saves him, he realizes that his mother was right, and freedom for everyone is worth fighting for no matter how impermanent it may be.

Speaking of Leia, I also like how this would highlight what Leia represents. To me, Leia represents hope (like Luke). At this point in the story, Kylo would be totally hopeless, believing that Palpatine cannot be outsmarted or defeated. The ultimate Sith. The embodiment of evil. But when Leia sacrifices herself and gives a part of her life to Ben (if you go with Nev’s/SherlockPotter’s idea for the scene) that hope shifts to him. I think this idea would fit well in an edit that features Kylo being haunted by memories of his father’s words from TFA, and maybe “hearing” him being the thing that stops Kylo from killing Rey.

I also think that if his motivation shifts to wanting to run away with Rey, it sort of would make his redemption feel more like a natural progression. Because at that point, he has realized everything he thought was for the greater good was actually wrong. He was actually wrong. He has accepted that his whole identity, his entire purpose and the sacrifices he made were all a lie. Which feels like it should’ve been the obvious thing for Kylo to conclude and ponder on after realizing Palpatine was behind it all. And then his whole conflict with Rey is more about Kylo trying to force Rey to realize her inner darkness and accept that if she confronts Palpatine, she would inevitably fall too. Palpatine used him, and he’ll use her too. If Kylo thinks he can’t even overcome Palpatine, then what chance does Rey have? And I think this all would speak to what he says to Rey on the Death Star, at this point he is just trying to convince Rey that she can’t go back. They’re too messed up to go back.

And I think, big picture-wise, but I think the angle that the story of the ST could be more clearly focused on is about how evil persists, but despite that fact good people persist too, and the good in this world is worth fighting for. So the question of whether or not Palpatine will return again, or if balance is temporary or permanently restored, doesn’t matter and fine left as an ambiguity because the point is that good people will always rise to face evil.

And I think this angle for Kylo’s story could work for any version of the Rey backstory you might want to go with.

Yes, I think most of the changes would be the dialogue in those scenes. At the very least the final half of the hangar scene, when he asks her to join her. It isn’t to join him and rule the galaxy, but to come with him and run away. And if you listen to his dialogue on the Death Star in kind of flows into that idea. He wants to run away because he thinks he’s too far gone, and he’s trying to convince Rey is too.

And I think their Death Star duel would be more motivated by Rey wanting to fight Kylo rather than Kylo wanting to fight her. I kind of imagine a version of the story that leans more into Rey slowly being corrupted by the dark side (through the visions, the dagger, etc.) over the course of the movie.

Kylo’s motivations could be like this:
Plan A - get Rey to run away with him
Plan B - if Rey refuses, kill her so he can claim the Sith throne/fleet.

At this point he may be accepting his fate, but sees Rey as his only escape. And if you’re going with a Rey Nobody edit, perhaps this is because he sees that Rey was never part of Palpatine’s plan. A variable he didn’t account for, couldn’t see.

I also always liked the idea of cutting Kylo’s line, “The only way you’re getting to Exegol is with me”, and just have him destroy the Wayfinder because it makes you wonder why he does it. To protect his new fleet or to maybe protect Rey?

And it could be interesting if, through the visions, Rey and Kylo were more directly pitted against each other. Like Kylo could tell Rey, “either you will take the throne or I will, but one of us will kill the other”. And Kylo is leaning into Rey inevitably giving into her darkness, into power, to get what she wants/save who she loves. It’s inevitable like Palpatine returning was inevitable. Power corrupts. Join the Sith and save your new family vs Be a Jedi and sacrifice your life or theirs.

Again, I think you could spin it several ways depending your version of Rey’s origin. If it was Rey Nobody, then Kylo would basically be like, “Palpatine is the conclusion of a plan a thousand years in the making. My family was a product of the Force itself and were still corrupted by him. You’re no one, how do you think you can resist him?” In my mind the dark side/Palpatine/the Throne is very much like a Sauron/the Ring situation. This powerful corrupting force. Like a black hole that drags down any good intentions. But it being representative of our negative qualities like greed and selfishness that we must always live with and struggle against. And Rey being representative of how anybody can be consumed by those things. None of us our immune.

(Speaking of black holes, I think it would be interesting to depict Exegol as a planet orbiting a black hole to make it more visually distinct and to add something to the idea of why Exegol is such a powerful nexus of the dark side.)

Ever since your idea about the Sith Throne, I like the idea of a big theme to carry through this movie is Selflessness vs Selfishness, and I think this would play into that well. Kylo wanting to just get away from it all also kind of makes me think of how Han is in ANH, only to show up and save the day in the end.

Also, sort of unrelated, but if you didn’t want to use the “dyad” term you could use a “vergence in the Force” as a more generic term for some special for thing. When Palpatine says “dyad” his mouth is out of Focus so it could be modified without it being super noticeable.

None of these really address the ins and outs of Palpatine’s essence and why he’s so obsessed with possessing Rey in particular

What if Rey was partially not just a clone of Palpatine, but of the fallen celestial Abeloth?

This is an idea that I tailor made for the legends cut

But the basic gist is that Rey is a clone of Palpatine and a recovered avatar husk of Abeloth

Palpatine’s spirit is tethered to the throne, he cannot risk anything happening to it

This creates a deeply troubling state of affairs

Enter the project of Rey

He wants Rey because he can merge with abeloth through her

Merging with Abeloth will allow his spirit to possess multiple bodies at once

The death of one avatar meant nothing, he would be physically immortal

This explains the teeth of empress Palpatine

Thus the Horcrux throne and the need for Rey is perfectly explained

With rey, he can merge with Abeloth and gain her immortality

No longer needing the throne

Two scientists take her and…

@Nev
I think something vague like, “forging a new destiny” could be good.

Kinda speaking toward your idea of making Rey’s potential death a part of the visions, I like the idea of the visions centering around the concept of either Rey or Kylo dying. Only one can survive, one can rule, according to Palpatine (Maybe speaks to the selfishness inherent to the dark side). And it makes their duel on the Death Star feel inevitable, fated even.

So, it pits Kylo’s two desires against each other. Does he wants to rule/win, or does he want to be with Rey? In TLJ, he tries to have it both ways, but Rey refuses him. So what if this time, he is explicitly telling Rey that he would rather be with her than to rule? This might surprise or shock Rey, but Rey still refuses him, because she would essentially be abandoning her friends and her mission. And even though it is still a selfish choice for Kylo, it is a step down from wanting to be a dictator, which helps ease the audience into his redemption and the kiss him and Rey share at the end of the film. Because saying he wants to run away with her is a stronger hint to the audience that his desire to be with her is more romantic than political. Him saying something like, “we can rule the galaxy together”, “forge a new destiny”, “nothing will stand in our way”, still implies to the audience that his interest in Rey may have more to do with the power their alliance could bring rather than being interested in Rey herself. I feel like this is why a lot of general audience members felt their kiss came out of left field. There wasn’t enough explicit dialogue about them actually wanting to “be” together in a romantic way.

The dagger stuff is interesting. I’m gonna have to think about it more/read more of your thoughts about it. I will say initially it feels like could be a complicated plot point to have to explain, but I’ve come around to your ideas a lot! It might work well for Palpatine lying about Rey being a Palpatine though.

I kinda lean toward the least amount time we spend talking about the MacGuffins, the better. And just accept Exegol, the Sith Throne, the Wayfinders, the Sith Dagger as all ancient Sith relics designed to hide Exegol from anyone who wasn’t worthy/a dark side user.

@Hadrian
I could see having to explain Abeloth would be really exposition heavy for audiences, and Abeloth wouldn’t really mean anything to anyone outside of Legends fans. But I don’t think Palpatine is necessarily obsessed with possessing Rey. I think he would have been more than fine if Kylo had killed her, but since she defeated him and found her way to Exegol, she proved herself a worthy enough vessel. But that could play differently depending on what angle an editor chooses to take.

@Eddie
This is something I’ve thought about a lot, and I think a lot of people, including myself, have felt the ST should have concluded in a way that makes it clear that something new will come along and this cycle is finally broken, but that’s not exactly where I’m at right now. For starters, I don’t know if there is enough content in the film to really paint that picture. And two, I don’t know if a potential future Rey film would contradict that, although I’m not letting myself be overly worried about stepping on the toes of a hypothetical future movie.

I don’t think the solution is that Rey breaks the cycle. I mean maybe she did, by destroying Palpatine, but it’s kind of left ambiguous. No one ever says, “the Sith are finally dead for good”. The solution, at least to me, is that the cycle is an inherent part of the Star Wars universe. Even if the Sith are gone for good, do you really think future Star Wars content won’t have other dark side users, or Jedi that will fall to the dark side?

The answer has to be that Rey, Ben, future Jedi, etc., have to accept that as long as people exist, there will always be good people and bad people. A perfect system that stops bad things from happening will never exist. There will always be selfless people and selfish people. But despite this constant struggle, the good in the universe is worth fighting to protect.

I feel like this Qui-Gon from the canon novel Master and Apprentice embodies this idea well, and maybe it could even be adapted in some form for the Jedi voices scene at the climax of the film.

Qui-Gon: It matters which side we choose. Even if there will never be more light than darkness. Even if there can be no more joy in the galaxy than there is pain. For every action we undertake, for every word we speak, for every life we touch—it matters. I don’t turn toward the light because it means someday I’ll ‘win’ some sort of cosmic game. I turn toward it because it is the light

You could even potentially expand on this issue further with Luke in TLJ. You could give him new dialogue where he says he thought that he had fixed the flaws of the old Jedi Order, but despite that Ben still fell. This fits with Legends too, because Luke did change a lot of the rules with his New Jedi Order, but many of his students still fell to the dark side. You could even explore the idea of Luke and Ben/Kylo coming to the same conclusion, and both wanting to break the cycle in different ways. Luke thought if the Jedi ended, he could snuff out the Sith’s fire and thus break the cycle, then maybe something pure can be reborn from the ashes. Kylo felt he must destroy the Jedi, and then the Sith, in order to start a new order in his image. But in the end they were both wrong. You can’t break the cycle, you can’t stop change, whether it be good and bad. That is a part of life. But that doesn’t mean people must sit back and do nothing about it.

Not super related but it makes me think of this quote.

Anakin: I don’t want things to change.
Shmi: But you can’t stop the change, no more than you can stop the suns from setting.

The dark side will always exist. Evil will always exist. And in times of peace dark forces will eventually rise again. But that doesn’t mean there is no point in fighting against that evil. So in my mind, that is why Rey proclaims herself a Jedi at the end of the film. Calling herself a Jedi is an act of rebellion against this absurd cycle. It’s saying, “I don’t care if I can’t stop the cycle, I’m going to resist it regardless”. She’ll fight for good because it’s worth fighting for, no matter how impermanent peace is. And that not only speaks to the issue of the Sith and the Jedi, but also with the New Republic/First Order.

But regardless, the movie is open ended enough to make the audience wonder if the cycle is broken, or has changed the state of the galaxy for good. Maybe it has, but whether or not evil will rise again doesn’t matter, because Rey and our heroes have accepted the fact that they will face whatever threats may rise, because it’s the right thing to do.

Does any of that make sense?

Wow! I really love that, RL

Thanks, Snooker!

@Starkiller
I mean, it would basically imply that the same amount as Ascendant does. But no version of the movie makes it 100% unambiguously clear that he won’t return. I mean he basically spelled out he won’t but even then it isn’t 100%.

I like the idea that Nev had to make it clear that it’s Exegol itself, and specifically the Sith Throne (maybe acting as a conduit for this powerful nexus of the dark side), is Palpatine’s secret to cheating death. So if an edit were to accomplish that vision of having Rey deflect Palpatine’s lightning at the throne and destroying it, it would make that clear. I think the Force ghosts appearing in Ascendant helps with that too, but that it would make a difference in keeping Palpatine from returning again is still just implied. And honestly, the potential of Palpatine just returning again seems like a logical question people in-universe might ask if he apparently has learned how to cheat death.

But the point is that it doesn’t matter if Palpatine comes back again or not. Palpatine coming back was worst-case scenario. This isn’t trying to say the exact same thing is gonna happen every 30 years. Some bad thing will eventually threaten peace in the galaxy again. Palpatine is the embodiment of evil, so he just kind of represents that for the Skywalker Saga. And this is the end of the Skywalker Saga so I agree this should be the end of Palpatine too.

I couldn’t help myself, so I decided to come back LMAO.

There’s some good discussion here. I do like the idea that Kylo wants to nope the hell out. But I’m unsure how this would work within the context of what we have. Kylo smashes the Wayfinder that Rey finds to pieces and says, “The only way you’re getting to Exegol is with me.” This would ordinally work by simply removing that line, but then you have the problem of the other Wayfinder being on board his own ship, which implies he was planning on going there with Rey in his ship. He would have destroyed the other Wayfinder as well if he no longer wanted any part in this. Plus, it makes their fight scene quite pointless, as previously pointed out.

What I like about the idea on the other thread is that it gives purpose to why Kylo made the choices that he did in his life, and why he’s still so interested in the dark side. Kylo will tell Rey that they’re destined for power because Palpatine used the Force to make their bloodlines, and in turn manipulate their fates. Luke saw that Ben was destined for a dark power in TLJ (the Sith throne), and that’s why he drew his lightsaber on him. Kylo kills Han because he knows his purpose in life is to choose power over family. One of them, Ben or Rey, has to take the throne. It’s unavoidable, a fixed point in time. But what Palpatine could not foresee is that the Force created a dyad between Rey and Ben, a connection that “transcends fate” when they’re together. When Kylo figures this out, it becomes a sunk cost fallacy. He’s already devoted so much of himself to the dark side. He hates that he had to kill his father. He feels too ashamed to see his mother again, as he states to Rey on the Death Star. So instead of using their bond to break free from his destiny for power and darkness, he is obsessed with creating a new dark order with Rey. Yes, this is just a different flavor of Sith, but I think that’s the point! He wants those sacrifices he made at the altar of the dark side to mean something. This is why he’s so obsessed with not allowing Rey to confront Palpatine alone, because he knows that means she will take the throne and all will be lost. This is also what makes their duel on the Death Star wreckage another “Duel of the Fates”, because neither is giving an inch for the other and this means one of them is going to die, fulfilling fate, and ensuring Palpatine’s victory. Palps would have won, too, if it weren’t for Leia’s intervention and Rey’s forgiveness which is a result of that. It’s only because Ben arrives on Exegol that their dyad stops one of them from being possessed by Palpatine and taking the throne.

Going with the idea that the dagger was created by Palpatine, have Rey use that against him. Rey faces her fear, focuses in on the dagger’s origin, and uses that to get to Exegol (and leave coordinates for the Resistance to follow. That’s how you get around the lack of Wayfinders.