Sign In

The Rise Of Skywalker - Abrams' Vision or Executive Meddling? — Page 3

Author
Time

It’s a bit of a time will tell situation, and I completely agree with you Rodney about the false dichotomy when talking about these things, discussing over text is also hard it sometimes carries this unintentional debate confrontation energy, when it’s not like any of us is the only one with valid points, there’s just enough to consider it’s not a straight line. The dynamics of Star Wars and its relationship between the audience over 3 trilogies and 40 years is not easily summarized.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

Author
Time

TFA was a kid doing a cool jump off a ledge at a birthday party.

TLJ was a kid telling a joke that he heard from an adult that you don’t get until you remember it years later.

TROS was a kid who somehow talked you into trading your rice crispy treat for his rice cake at lunch and threw it into the ceiling fan.

Well done. I will disengage self-destruct initiative.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

TROS only made a billion because it was more of a sequel to TFA than TLJ and it had palpatine and the finale effect had a positive impact as well.

If it doubled down on TLJ’s story direction or refused to bring back palpatine or was part 1 in a two parter…or god forbid all three…than I would not be surprised if it struggled to make justice league numbers(600 million)

Don’t underestimate how many people loathed the direction that TLJ was going in and how TROS was lucky to make the money it did

Author
Time

Hadrian continues to reach further than I’ve ever seen someone reach before.

I don’t know where you’re getting the idea that everyone hated TFA and TLJ. Sure, a vocal contingent of hardcore fans didn’t like those movies, but they just represent an incredibly tiny fraction of the whole. TFA got 93% on Rotten Tomatoes, and TLJ got 91%. And even in the Star Wars fandom, a lot of people defended those movies and said that they actually considered them good.

Once you spend too much time in an echo chamber, you begin to feel like you’re the majority.

Author
Time

Don’t underestimate how many people loathed the direction that TLJ was going in

I’m sure it’s in the thousands, sure. Thousands can seem like a lot of people if you’re packed into a convention hall, or watching a minor league sporting event. But when you’re dealing with tens of MILLIONS of tickets sold, blu-rays bought, and streams counted, thousands aren’t a whole hell of a lot.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I love all three sequels, so I have no complaints regarding who made them or their interaction with the studio. I think the passing of Carrie Fisher had more of an impact on TRoS than anything else.

But if I’m compelled to nitpick and play a game of what-ifs, then the only second-guessing I’d do is how fast Disney wanted these new Star Wars movies rolled out. I’m not in the business, but a new Star Wars trilogy seems to me like more of an undertaking than the Marvel movies they were cranking out. I think a little more time before the first and three years between instead of two could have had a positive impact on everything.

Still, I love those movies. They gave us excellent new characters and some great moments with the old cast. I have wonderful memories of going to see them and all the hype leading up, just like the other movies. Triple Force Friday was a complete blast.

I’m going to enjoy these new Disney+ series while anticipating what they do next. Can’t wait!

Author
Time
 (Edited)

To be fair… enthusiasm for Star Wars was at an all-time low. At least that’s how I saw things irl… in 2015 the marketing for Star Wars was huge. Everyone talked about it that December. Then in 2016 and 2017, the excitement was less than in 2015 but still far-reaching. Everyone was at least aware of the Star Wars movie coming out even if they weren’t planning on watching it.

But in 2019 everyone was… tired? At least from what I saw, there wasn’t much general excitement for the movie. Maybe the marketing was too focused on “the end” when everyone knew Disney would keep making movies. Maybe this was the first movie without the return of an iconic character (Han/Vader/Luke). Or maybe it wasn’t Disney’s fault at all and three was just the magic number for people to become tired with the franchise.

I don’t think it had anything to do with low reactions to TFA or TLJ, but there definitely was a dip in enthusiasm among general audiences.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

Author
Time
 (Edited)

OutboundFlight said:

To be fair… enthusiasm for Star Wars was at an all-time low. At least that’s how I saw things irl… in 2015 the marketing for Star Wars was huge. Everyone talked about it that December. Then in 2016 and 2017, the excitement was less than in 2015 but still far-reaching. Everyone was at least aware of the Star Wars movie coming out even if they weren’t planning on watching it.

But in 2019 everyone was… tired? At least from what I saw, there wasn’t much general excitement for the movie. Maybe the marketing was too focused on “the end” when everyone knew Disney would keep making movies. Maybe this was the first movie without the return of an iconic character (Han/Vader/Luke). Or maybe it wasn’t Disney’s fault at all and three was just the magic number for people to become tired with the franchise.

I don’t think it had anything to do with low reactions to TFA or TLJ, but there definitely was a dip in enthusiasm among general audiences.

The issue is this…why are people so easily tired of Star Wars if marvel released 6 movies within a span of two years?

It has 100 percent to do with TLJ…the tired feeling that you described started after TLJ, climaxed with the bombing of solo in 2018, and had its logical conclusion in 2019

TROS making less than a R rated joker movie and only making a billion because of its finale factor and palpatine

There is no such thing as Star Wars fatigue…there is only bad movie fatigue

And TLJ was one bad movie too many(speaking to the sheer toxicity of its storytelling decisions)

Author
Time

Dude, stop trying to blame everything on TLJ. That movie wasn’t universally hated like you think, most people actually liked it. The reason Solo bombed was because of Disney’s terrible marketing decisions, and TROS’s performance is actually pretty good for the third installment of a series. The anger of a few hardcore fans had nothing to do with it.

Author
Time

StarkillerAG said:

Dude, stop trying to blame everything on TLJ. That movie wasn’t universally hated like you think, most people actually liked it. The reason Solo bombed was because of Disney’s terrible marketing decisions, and TROS’s performance is actually pretty good for the third installment of a series. The anger of a few hardcore fans had nothing to do with it.

Revenge of the sith made more than AOTC

Return of the Jedi was dead even with empire strikes back

The sequel trilogy just went downhill with every installment with its latter two installments having the worst legs in December box office history

Do you really want to argue with math?

Author
Time

Dude, whataboutism ain’t gonna help your case. AOTC was a fluke because of the Spider-Man movie coming out at the same time, and the OT fit the same box office pattern that the sequels did. TROS made 1 billion dollars at the box office, that’s pretty damn good to me.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

StarkillerAG said:

Dude, whataboutism ain’t gonna help your case. AOTC was a fluke because of the Spider-Man movie coming out at the same time, and the OT fit the same box office pattern that the sequels did. TROS made 1 billion dollars at the box office, that’s pretty damn good to me.

Comparing box office totals as a judge of audience interest isn’t whataboutism, it actually has a fair amount of bearing on the argument. And the OT doesn’t really fit the sequel box office pattern domestically, since TROS made less than TLJ domestically while ROTJ made more than ESB with the same metric. Comparing worldwide gross and the pattern isn’t really there however. The takeaway from that seems to be that 4, 5, 1, and 7 all did extremely well compared to their sequels, telling me that the only trilogy starter that wasn’t a disappointment was the original. TFA and TPM both depressed turnout for their sequels. Only TLJ seems to have unequivocally depressed the turnout of the final installment, since the domestic numbers for ROTJ were actually better than ESB and there are as you said extenuating circumstances in the case of AOTC.

Finally, every saga movie made over a billion dollars worldwide, accounting for inflation. The shocking thing is that TROS only barely made it.

Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change? - oojason
Episode 9 Rewrite THE SHATTERED SWORD (Complete!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V3 Released!) and The Starlight Project (WORKPRINT RELEASED!)

Author
Time

I guess you’re kind of right. I’m really just arguing with his stupid idea that everyone hated TLJ, and the only reason anyone went to see TROS was because of Palpatine. That idea is just dumb, and obviously has no basis in fact.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Hadrian sunrider said:

StarkillerAG said:

Dude, stop trying to blame everything on TLJ. That movie wasn’t universally hated like you think, most people actually liked it. The reason Solo bombed was because of Disney’s terrible marketing decisions, and TROS’s performance is actually pretty good for the third installment of a series. The anger of a few hardcore fans had nothing to do with it.

Revenge of the sith made more than AOTC

Return of the Jedi was dead even with empire strikes back

The sequel trilogy just went downhill with every installment with its latter two installments having the worst legs in December box office history

Do you really want to argue with math?

Well, lets talk the maths…

Stats or original release for the OT:

ANH - $503,015,849
ESB - $400,083,259
ROTJ - $374,593,074

And those were different times than now. Before the internet and before the rise of the internet trolls and “youtubers” shitting all over everything. ROTJ broke weekend box office records, but the numbers dropped pretty fast after the first week.

Sith made more than AOTC because of the hype surrounding Vader appearing in it and people hoping it would feel more like the OT. They wanted to see the Vader hunting down the jedi, they wanted to see the duel over lava and anakin become vader. It is something fans had wanted to see for decades. You can’t beat that type of hype.

So lets use other stats. Ticket sales. Est # ticket sales for each film (domestic) in ascending order:

ANH 178,119,500
TFA 108,115,100
ESB 98,213,400
ROTJ 94,059,400
TPM 90,312,100
TLJ 67,594,500
ROTS 59,324,600
ROS 54,984,300
AOTC 53,468,500

Jesus, fans must have hated ESB. Just look at how many less tickets were sold for that films compared to its predecessor.

The sequel trilogy performed perfectly well. You have to remember that China is a HUGE market for the film industry and its only in recent years that China has even shown any of the Star Wars films. So they haven’t grown up with the films and have an attachment to them as we all do. So a big chunk of the box office market is gone right there. Yet all three earned over $1 billion.

Solo under-performing had nothing to do with TLJ either. Right from the films announcement a lot of the fanbase just wasn’t that interested in the idea of it. Having someone playing Han Solo who wasn’t Harrison Ford turned them off the film right away. That was back in 2015, when Star Wars fever was at a high, 6 months prior to TFA being released. And then followed all the reports of the troubles during the making of it etc. That really didn’t help.

Then you had George jumping in and throwing his dummy out the pram after TFA because they didn’t use his story treatments> calling Disney the “white slavers” etc. You have that section of the fanbase that were loyal to george that decided they were going to boycott the Disney Star Wars out of loyalty to George.

On top of that you had the “Legends” crown that were boycotting everything because “Disney destroyed our Star Wars”

But what is really turning fans off Star Wars, isn’t the movies or TV series, but a certain section of the fanbase. Sucking the fun out of any online discussion about the franchise. You can’t even discuss the Disney films without a bunch of assholes jumping in, telling them that they are an idiot/ moron who must have low IQ if they liked the ST.

ANH:REVISITED
ESB:REVISITED

DONATIONS TOWARDS MATERIALS FOR THE REVISITED SAGA

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Star Wars just isn’t as popular in China and other countries, but domestically it’s right there with the MCU.

Domestic Box Office Totals

Star Wars + Marvel

Force Awakens - $936,662,225
Avengers: Endgame - $858,373,000
Black Panther - $700,059,566
Avengers: Infinity War - $678,815,482
The Avengers - $623,357,910
The Last Jedi - 620,181,382
Rogue One - $532,177,324
The Rise of Skywalker - $515,202,542
Avengers: Age of Ultron - $459,005,868
Captain Marvel - $426,829,839
Iron Man 3 - $408,992,272
Captain America: Civil War - $408,084,349
Spider-Man: Far From Home - $390,532,085
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2 - $389,813,101
Spider-Man: Homecoming - $334,201,140
Guardians of the Galaxy - $333,172,112
Iron Man - $318,604,126
Thor: Ragnarok - $315,058,289
Iron Man 2 - $312,433,331
Captain America: The Winter Soldier - $259,746,958
Doctor Strange - $232,641,920
Ant-Man and the Wasp - $216,648,740
Solo - $213,767,512
Thor: The Dark World - $206,362,140
Thor - $181,030,624
Ant-Man - $180,202,163
Captain America: The First Avenger - $176,654,505
The Incredible Hulk - $134,806,913

Author
Time
 (Edited)

2019 Domestic Top 10

1.Avengers: Endgame - $858,373,000
2.The Lion King - $543,638,043 4,725
3.The Rise of Skywalker - $515,202,542
4.Frozen II - $450,439,533
5.Toy Story 4 - $434,038,008
6.Captain Marvel - $426,829,839
7.Spider-Man: Far From Home - $390,532,085
8.Aladdin - $355,559,216
9.Joker - $333,985,454
10.Jumanji: The Next Level - $235,933,751

Author
Time

OutboundFlight said:

To be fair… enthusiasm for Star Wars was at an all-time low

Lower than from 2006-2012?

IMO, they needed an Episode 10. Frankly I’m unsure how to change TRoS to make it better without changing TFA and TLJ, but I can easily tell you how I’d do a two-movie follow-up to them.

The trilogy format is something that was entirely coincidental for the original movies, and a consequence of another entirely coincidental factor for the prequels. There’s no reason the sequels should have been beholden to it. A sequel quadrilogy (or two sequel duologies?) would have been better.

Death of the Author

Author
Time

TROS could’ve been fine if it was longer. Pairing Chris Terrio, who is known for long, messy scripts that always create movies over 2.5 hours, with JJ Abrams, who doesn’t like movies longer than 2.5 hours, is just a bad combination. That’s why TROS has such poor pacing and editing. Too much plot to get through in not enough time.

Use the Force, Jon Yowza.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Hal 9000 said:

TFA was a kid doing a cool jump off a ledge at a birthday party.

TLJ was a kid telling a joke that he heard from an adult that you don’t get until you remember it years later.

TROS was a kid who somehow talked you into trading your rice crispy treat for his rice cake at lunch and threw it into the ceiling fan.

TRoS is actually the best part of your trilogy.

Broom Kid said:

Don’t underestimate how many people loathed the direction that TLJ was going in

I’m sure it’s in the thousands, sure. Thousands can seem like a lot of people if you’re packed into a convention hall, or watching a minor league sporting event. But when you’re dealing with tens of MILLIONS of tickets sold, blu-rays bought, and streams counted, thousands aren’t a whole hell of a lot.

I have the impression the haters are something like a third of people. Just speaking anecdotally from conversations IRL, that seems about right. Maybe only one quarter. I remember my college club banning discussion of the film for its controversy before I even had the chance to bring it up.

IMO, they needed an Episode 10. Frankly I’m unsure how to change TRoS to make it better without changing TFA and TLJ, but I can easily tell you how I’d do a two-movie follow-up to them.

I have no trouble wrapping things up in one film, assuming I’m allowed to stray far from what we got.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

If there was an episode 10…episode 9 would have flopped

Audiences barely turned up for episode 9 which was the finale of the trilogy and had palpatine in it

Do you honestly think that episode 9 would even cross a billion if it wasn’t the end?

Do you honestly think that audiences would tolerate an episode 10 starring these characters?

Author
Time

adywan said:

Hadrian sunrider said:

StarkillerAG said:

Dude, stop trying to blame everything on TLJ. That movie wasn’t universally hated like you think, most people actually liked it. The reason Solo bombed was because of Disney’s terrible marketing decisions, and TROS’s performance is actually pretty good for the third installment of a series. The anger of a few hardcore fans had nothing to do with it.

Revenge of the sith made more than AOTC

Return of the Jedi was dead even with empire strikes back

The sequel trilogy just went downhill with every installment with its latter two installments having the worst legs in December box office history

Do you really want to argue with math?

Well, lets talk the maths…

Stats or original release for the OT:

ANH - $503,015,849
ESB - $400,083,259
ROTJ - $374,593,074

And those were different times than now. Before the internet and before the rise of the internet trolls and “youtubers” shitting all over everything. ROTJ broke weekend box office records, but the numbers dropped pretty fast after the first week.

Sith made more than AOTC because of the hype surrounding Vader appearing in it and people hoping it would feel more like the OT. They wanted to see the Vader hunting down the jedi, they wanted to see the duel over lava and anakin become vader. It is something fans had wanted to see for decades. You can’t beat that type of hype.

So lets use other stats. Ticket sales. Est # ticket sales for each film (domestic) in ascending order:

ANH 178,119,500
TFA 108,115,100
ESB 98,213,400
ROTJ 94,059,400
TPM 90,312,100
TLJ 67,594,500
ROTS 59,324,600
ROS 54,984,300
AOTC 53,468,500

Jesus, fans must have hated ESB. Just look at how many less tickets were sold for that films compared to its predecessor.

The sequel trilogy performed perfectly well. You have to remember that China is a HUGE market for the film industry and its only in recent years that China has even shown any of the Star Wars films. So they haven’t grown up with the films and have an attachment to them as we all do. So a big chunk of the box office market is gone right there. Yet all three earned over $1 billion.

Solo under-performing had nothing to do with TLJ either. Right from the films announcement a lot of the fanbase just wasn’t that interested in the idea of it. Having someone playing Han Solo who wasn’t Harrison Ford turned them off the film right away. That was back in 2015, when Star Wars fever was at a high, 6 months prior to TFA being released. And then followed all the reports of the troubles during the making of it etc. That really didn’t help.

Then you had George jumping in and throwing his dummy out the pram after TFA because they didn’t use his story treatments> calling Disney the “white slavers” etc. You have that section of the fanbase that were loyal to george that decided they were going to boycott the Disney Star Wars out of loyalty to George.

On top of that you had the “Legends” crown that were boycotting everything because “Disney destroyed our Star Wars”

But what is really turning fans off Star Wars, isn’t the movies or TV series, but a certain section of the fanbase. Sucking the fun out of any online discussion about the franchise. You can’t even discuss the Disney films without a bunch of assholes jumping in, telling them that they are an idiot/ moron who must have low IQ if they liked the ST.

Wow…a 4 million ticket decline

Such a disaster

TLJ and TROS still dropped worse than any of the Star Wars sequels

And it’s not the fans that are killing the hype for Star Wars…it is the lack of interesting characters with long term value.

I have yet to see someone who wants to see Rey ever again

I could find a million fans who want Vader to be given a tv series or a movie

I can find no one who wants to see Rey even mentioned in future films

That is what is killing Star Wars.

Author
Time

Could you stop your constant anti-sequel spamming? People here have varying opinions about those movies, but it seems like the only thing you ever post is “sequel bad, everyone hates the sequels” which is just not true if you look outside your echo chamber for more than 5 minutes.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Hadrian sunrider said:

adywan said:

Hadrian sunrider said:

StarkillerAG said:

Dude, stop trying to blame everything on TLJ. That movie wasn’t universally hated like you think, most people actually liked it. The reason Solo bombed was because of Disney’s terrible marketing decisions, and TROS’s performance is actually pretty good for the third installment of a series. The anger of a few hardcore fans had nothing to do with it.

Revenge of the sith made more than AOTC

Return of the Jedi was dead even with empire strikes back

The sequel trilogy just went downhill with every installment with its latter two installments having the worst legs in December box office history

Do you really want to argue with math?

Well, lets talk the maths…

Stats or original release for the OT:

ANH - $503,015,849
ESB - $400,083,259
ROTJ - $374,593,074

And those were different times than now. Before the internet and before the rise of the internet trolls and “youtubers” shitting all over everything. ROTJ broke weekend box office records, but the numbers dropped pretty fast after the first week.

Sith made more than AOTC because of the hype surrounding Vader appearing in it and people hoping it would feel more like the OT. They wanted to see the Vader hunting down the jedi, they wanted to see the duel over lava and anakin become vader. It is something fans had wanted to see for decades. You can’t beat that type of hype.

So lets use other stats. Ticket sales. Est # ticket sales for each film (domestic) in ascending order:

ANH 178,119,500
TFA 108,115,100
ESB 98,213,400
ROTJ 94,059,400
TPM 90,312,100
TLJ 67,594,500
ROTS 59,324,600
ROS 54,984,300
AOTC 53,468,500

Jesus, fans must have hated ESB. Just look at how many less tickets were sold for that films compared to its predecessor.

The sequel trilogy performed perfectly well. You have to remember that China is a HUGE market for the film industry and its only in recent years that China has even shown any of the Star Wars films. So they haven’t grown up with the films and have an attachment to them as we all do. So a big chunk of the box office market is gone right there. Yet all three earned over $1 billion.

Solo under-performing had nothing to do with TLJ either. Right from the films announcement a lot of the fanbase just wasn’t that interested in the idea of it. Having someone playing Han Solo who wasn’t Harrison Ford turned them off the film right away. That was back in 2015, when Star Wars fever was at a high, 6 months prior to TFA being released. And then followed all the reports of the troubles during the making of it etc. That really didn’t help.

Then you had George jumping in and throwing his dummy out the pram after TFA because they didn’t use his story treatments> calling Disney the “white slavers” etc. You have that section of the fanbase that were loyal to george that decided they were going to boycott the Disney Star Wars out of loyalty to George.

On top of that you had the “Legends” crown that were boycotting everything because “Disney destroyed our Star Wars”

But what is really turning fans off Star Wars, isn’t the movies or TV series, but a certain section of the fanbase. Sucking the fun out of any online discussion about the franchise. You can’t even discuss the Disney films without a bunch of assholes jumping in, telling them that they are an idiot/ moron who must have low IQ if they liked the ST.

Wow…a 4 million ticket decline

Such a disaster

TLJ and TROS still dropped worse than any of the Star Wars sequels

And it’s not the fans that are killing the hype for Star Wars…it is the lack of interesting characters with long term value.

I have yet to see someone who wants to see Rey ever again

I could find a million fans who want Vader to be given a tv series or a movie

I can find no one who wants to see Rey even mentioned in future films

That is what is killing Star Wars.

Maybe get out of your little closed " the sequels are shit" circle and you’ll find there are plenty of people that would like to see Rey back at some point, along with Finn, BB-8 and other sequel characters. And of course you’ll see more people wanting a vader spin off. Vader is embedded in pop culture and has been around for 43 years.

StarkillerAG said:

Could you stop your constant anti-sequel spamming? People here have varying opinions about those movies, but it seems like the only thing you ever post is “sequel bad, everyone hates the sequels” which is just not true if you look outside your echo chamber for more than 5 minutes.

Yeh, his constant anti-sequel spamming pretty much proved my point that its the fans destroying star wars and not the films doing this. It just seems to blow this type of fans brains that people may have a different opinion on the films and actually like them. Its as if they have to try and force their view that nobody likes them, down peoples throats until they comply. THAT’S what is putting people off Star Wars.

ANH:REVISITED
ESB:REVISITED

DONATIONS TOWARDS MATERIALS FOR THE REVISITED SAGA