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The Rise Of Skywalker - Abrams' Vision or Executive Meddling? — Page 2

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Hadrian sunrider said:

The plan is overvalued as it doesn’t take into account audience rejection

Audiences might not like where you are about to take this franchise, it doesn’t matter if you planned it from the beginning, the second you implement it the audience will reject it.

So?

Audiences don’t like Rey or the fact that she is going to restore the Jedi order, no amount of execution is going to save an idea that audiences simply won’t accept.

What are you talking about? I have heard that people have specific issues with Rey, but I’ve never heard people outright dismiss her character or dislike the idea of her restoring the Jedi Order.

The fantastic beasts franchise is obviously meticulously planned, but audiences don’t like the shit Rowling is selling from a foundational level.

That franchise doesn’t seem meticulously planned to me at all; the first movie was about fantastic beasts but the second one treats them as an afterthought. If that was always the plan, then they would have named the series 'Grindlewald and Friends."

Planning for palpatine’s return since the beginning isn’t going to make the idea any less shitty

That’s true, which is why they weren’t planning for Palpatine’s return from the beginning.

You might be put in a situation where audiences demand something other than you planned and you will have to scrap your story and reboot mid series in order to avoid audience rejection.

Again, who cares about audience ‘rejection’ if you’re confident in your story?

Which puts us back to where we came from with the ST(and how episode 9 came out of nowhere)

We don’t need a plan, we need good ideas

A good idea is worthless without committed execution; in other words, a plan.

Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change? - oojason
Episode 9 Rewrite THE SHATTERED SWORD (Complete!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V3 Released!) and The Starlight Project (WORKPRINT RELEASED!)

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JadedSkywalker said:

I read he had ten months to make Rise of Skywalker. Its my opinion that its a very good film to be made in such a short amount of time.

Idk…I think Jurassic Park III is a great film, and they were literally writing the script during filming. Not that’s ever a good idea, but my point is can be done well.

Ten months sounds about right, though, as Abrams was revealed as director in September 2017, and principal photography began in August 2018. Apparently Lucas was brought onboard for story meetings around that time. I can only imagine his reaction went something like this:

It’s Disney’s fault for having such a tight deadline. When Carrie passed, they should have pushed it back a year. No one external forced the release date.

100%. Regardless whose vision the final film was, it sucked because they weren’t given the time to make something better.

None of the bad decisions he made were time-based though. He would have had an extra 6-10 months to try finessing his mountain of bad ideas, but they still would have been fundamentally bad. If anything, looking at how that movie was made, it just would have been packed full of even more - and newer - bad ideas than what we got on his deadline.

Fair enough. I suppose no matter how much time you gave him, Abrams would’ve still made an Abrams film. Which is why they should’ve picked someone other than Abrams. When has Abrams ever stuck a landing on anything? Really, though, the issue isn’t his directing, it’s his writing. So long as you keep him out of the writers’ room, there shouldn’t be any problem. Kinda makes you wonder what the Prequels would’ve been like with the same script but Abrams as director.

Point is, the most fundamental issue was the script, as with just about any bad film, and the way to solve that is to rewrite or get somehow else who can. Personally, I’d have gotten a rewrite of Duel of the Fates, but that’s just me. Oh wait, no, actually, that’s probably a lot of people’s take.

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Duel of fates was 2 rewrites away from serving as a great epilogue to the skywalker saga

The structural issues is that Rey and Kylo’s duel has nothing to do with what is happening on coruscant, this needs fixing

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There are a lot more issues with it than just that, but yes, it did come pretty close to being a perfect ending.

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Abrams and Terrio are both competent writers, they were just poor choices for Episode IX. They tried to please everyone, make a crowd-pleasing movie that made everyone feel warm and fuzzy inside, but that’s not how it works. Attempting to please all factors involved and injecting your movie with fanservice is never a good idea. It only worked on TFA because of competent character writing from Arndt and Kasdan.

Use the Force, Jon Yowza.

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Hoop28 said:

Abrams and Terrio are both competent writers, they were just poor choices for Episode IX. They tried to please everyone, make a crowd-pleasing movie that made everyone feel warm and fuzzy inside, but that’s not how it works. Attempting to please all factors involved and injecting your movie with fanservice is never a good idea. It only worked on TFA because of competent character writing from Arndt and Kasdan.

I would argue that TFA didn’t work

People never liked TFA…people tolerated TFA

People were genuinely hoping that future installments would improve the more questionable aspects of TFA

The reason TLJ fell at the box office so quickly and it’s backlash became so violent that TROS barely grossed a billion was because of pent up rage against TFA

People never liked the first order, loathed the resistance, and hoped that the new republic was still alive till TLJ confirmed that it wasn’t and that the resistance and the first order were the main factions

Than the shit storm hit

There is a reason why the final order completely overshadows the first order in episode 9

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People really liked TFA. Nothing makes 900mil+ domestically out of a sense of “tolerance.”

It’s kinda silly to look at the unprecedented success (and critical reception) TFA got and say people only “tolerated” it. They obviously really, really liked it. Liking a movie and hoping the sequel does the stuff you liked EVEN BETTER aren’t mutually exclusive ideas. TLJ didn’t make as much as TFA for multiple reasons, hashed out in multiple discusssions over the last five years, but I don’t think in any way that “pent up rage” from the audience had any real effect on that box-office dip.

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I still think it’s more than fair to say many opinions on TFA soured over time, and after TROS all three went down in favor retroactively once audiences saw what it amounted to in the end. TFA unresolved is much better when all the potential for it to be anything was still there.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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I still think it’s more than fair to say many opinions on TFA soured over time

Ok, but that’s not really what’s being argued. Opinions didn’t really sour that much between 2015 and 2017, and certainly not to the point where mass outbreaks of “pent up rage” affected the box-office of TLJ to a measurable degree. Even to the extent that some opinions on the film did sour in the two years (more like 1 1/2 considering its popularity) it certainly didn’t sour to the point where anyone could claim its “tolerated” popularity was only kept afloat due to the power of hope that sequels would “fix” it.

This suggested POV seems to be reflecting a small and extremely online subsect of the film’s (exponentially) larger audience.

Also: earlier in the thread, someone suggested Arndt’s character work is what contributed to TFA’s success, but I don’t believe anything about Arndt’s script save for the general structure survived the process. IIRC, the whole reason Kasdan was there was to effectively page-one rewrite everything with Abrams.

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Broom Kid said:
it certainly didn’t sour to the point where anyone could claim its “tolerated” popularity was only kept afloat due to the power of hope that sequels would “fix” it.

This suggested POV seems to be reflecting a small and extremely online subsect of the film’s (exponentially) larger audience.

So if box office numbers can’t be measurable (fine if you meant negligible, though that’s also somewhat subjective) because stacked circumstances make it all speculative, doesn’t the other side of that coin include inflated box office in the first place due to the brand? What about the Luke Skywalker tease at the end of TFA, that was bait on the hook for many legacy fans to return regardless of their feelings on the movie. What about the prequels? Many who hated TPM still returned for the other two with similar hope that it would all come together in the end. You can’t imply the silent majority in no way reflects the vocal side of the community.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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“The community” is a very small percentage of the larger audience though. Fandom isn’t as important as it thinks it is, nor does it have the numbers it thinks it does. “Fandom,” and “The Community” don’t represent a lot of power compared to the general audience. Is there some venn diagramming of the “Silent Majority” as you put it and the vocal side of a much, much smaller segment of that audience that self-identifies as “the fandom?” Definitely. Is that venn diagramming all that important to anyone but the people in that self-identified fandom? Not really.

I’m also not sure what it is you’re trying to argue in this context? That if things were different, they’d be different? TFA was liked. A lot. It wasn’t merely “Tolerated” to the level of success it enjoyed.

It’s popularity doesn’t negate or invalidate people’s feelings about the movie though. I’m not saying “Well, it was popular, so your criticisms don’t count” I have problems with TFA as a movie, too. What I’m saying is that trying to reframe its obvious and observable success both financially and critically as a mass exercise in tolerance doesn’t make any sense to me if you’re trying to reflect reality at all, nor does trying to frame TLJ’s reception (which was remarkably good if not AS remarkable as TFA’s) as a result of the general audience’s collective pent-up rage being unleashed.

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Broom Kid said:

It’s popularity doesn’t negate or invalidate people’s feelings about the movie though. I’m not saying “Well, it was popular, so your criticisms don’t count” I have problems with TFA as a movie, too. What I’m saying is that trying to reframe its obvious and observable success both financially and critically as a mass exercise in tolerance doesn’t make any sense to me if you’re trying to reflect reality at all, nor does trying to frame TLJ’s reception (which was remarkably good if not AS remarkable as TFA’s) as a result of the general audience’s collective pent-up rage being unleashed.

Preach on, Broom Kid. I’m not the biggest fan of the sequels at all, but it’s kind of dumb that people are trying to Trotsky the universal critical and commercial success of TFA into some sort of mass exercise in tolerance. People liked TFA, it’s just the next two movies being so controversial that soured its reputation.

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“The community” is a very small percentage of the larger audience though. Fandom isn’t as important as it thinks it is, nor does it have the numbers it thinks it does. “Fandom,” and “The Community” don’t represent a lot of power compared to the general audience. Is there some venn diagramming of the “Silent Majority” as you put it and the vocal side of a much, much smaller segment of that audience that self-identifies as “the fandom?” Definitely. Is that venn diagramming all that important to anyone but the people in that self-identified fandom? Not really.

You must be right. Clearly, the fandom can’t be that big since pretty much every corner of it hated TRoS and yet audience scores are pretty positive. Then again, I think they’re taken from right after the premiere, so…

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I still love TFA to this day

TPM ROTJ ESB TFA TLJ TROS ROTS ANH SOLO RO ATOC

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dgraham414 said:

I still love TFA to this day

I had a blast watching TFA and went to see it several times, but retrospectively, story direction bad. It was something that successfully got people excited about ‘traditional’ Star Wars again, and I remember as many enthusiasts as critics. Back then it was the most controversial Star Wars movie. Before the dark times…

“Remember, the Force will be with you. Always.”

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Broom Kid said:
Is there some venn diagramming of the “Silent Majority” as you put it and the vocal side of a much, much smaller segment of that audience that self-identifies as “the fandom?” Definitely. Is that venn diagramming all that important to anyone but the people in that self-identified fandom? Not really.

I’m with you through most of this, but this absolutely is important to the studio, they want a four quadrant blockbuster.

I’m also not sure what it is you’re trying to argue in this context? That if things were different, they’d be different? TFA was liked. A lot. It wasn’t merely “Tolerated” to the level of success it enjoyed.

It’s popularity doesn’t negate or invalidate people’s feelings about the movie though. I’m not saying “Well, it was popular, so your criticisms don’t count” I have problems with TFA as a movie, too. What I’m saying is that trying to reframe its obvious and observable success both financially and critically as a mass exercise in tolerance doesn’t make any sense to me if you’re trying to reflect reality at all, nor does trying to frame TLJ’s reception (which was remarkably good if not AS remarkable as TFA’s) as a result of the general audience’s collective pent-up rage being unleashed.

It’s not always arguing, sometimes it’s just begging the question. I don’t fully agree with either characterization, TFA is a crowd pleaser and it wasn’t accepted begrudgingly, but there’s a kernel of truth without tackling hyperbole as literal. Mostly I don’t like how dismissive people can be because it feels like its own cherry picking, the numbers don’t matter even the week to week drop offs, the audience scores can be manipulated, my inner circle observations are anecdotal, the reviews even some made within weeks of initial release only represent the views of a small minority with an indiscernible overlap so the rest is unknowable and indisputable. Feels convenient and arbitrary, like I could use the same logic for any movie that wasn’t a colossal bomb. I get it that the studios shouldn’t feel held hostage to some 1% of fans in a twitter mob that just won’t shut up, but in this case it comes off as a failure to extrapolate or skewing the result to reduce those numbers to only the most passionately disgruntled.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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act on instinct said:

I’m with you through most of this, but this absolutely is important to the studio, they want a four quadrant blockbuster.

The four quadrants don’t include “hardcore online fandom” though. The four quadrants are men, women, young, and old. Again, do small slivers of each quadrant coincide with self-described members of fandom? Absolutely. But the utility of fandom to a studio isn’t ticket sales. It’s free marketing. And even in that instance, free marketing is just cherries on top of an expensive pie they’ve baked to do most of the real work.

I get your point about feeling dismissive, and wanting to combat that dismissiveness - but that’s partially why I responded in the first place, because the initial response I was countering was legitimately dismissive based on basically nothing but a small, skewed, extremely online perspective that sought to reframe reality itself in order to make an argument seem more sound. And that’s also why I made sure to point out I’m not suggesting people’s personal opinions about the movies are invalidated by general audience reception, nor should they be. The Force Awakens made 930mil domestic and made more than a few top 10 of the year lists - and I feel like it’s still borderline incoherent in the editing at points and comes very close to fumbling the third act completely, for example. The argument I’m making here isn’t that “the movie was successful and has a Rotten Tomatoes rating of X, therefore you can’t ever complain about the movie.” That’s not my stance. My stance is “You can’t extrapolate from your own personal opinons, attribute them to millions and millions of other people on a whim, and then act as if that extrapolation is now observable, inarguable reality,” especially when what you’re claiming as reality is that a generally accepted, liked, and inarguably successful movie was merely “tolerated” all the way to the bank.

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My stance also is not about criticizing the movie, it’s when you say those feelings are only with the fandom you also are making an assumption of reality and all contrary data is insufficient to extrapolate from and so can be dismissed as virtually nonexistent (“that’s just Star Wars fans”). I wouldn’t assume the average person hated the movie they paid to see, but you don’t have to commit to full boycott to be disappointed while still going to see the next one because you’ve been a fan for decades and it’s the holiday event to go with your friends and family. Like TFA didn’t reach 2 billion all on its own merits, no more than Jurassic World.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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it’s when you say those feelings are only with the fandom you also are making an assumption of reality

It’s not so much an assumption as it is an accumulation of experience. It’s not dismissing fandom to say it’s a small, much less-important voice compared to the general audience’s, it’s observable fact. Fandom isn’t as important as it likes to think it is, and has proven as such over, and over, and over again.

I’ve never said feelings within the fandom are exclusive to the fandom, and have repeatedly admitted there are members of the general audience whose opinion will (and do) overlap with members of the fandom’s. But that doesn’t validate or elevate the fandom’s status beyond their place as a loud and passionate minority of the much larger general audience.

The initial claim was honestly pretty ridiculous and that’s why I spoke up. I don’t understand what’s wrong with that. YouTube comment rhetoric isn’t the same as a cogent argument with legitimate support.

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Your tone is different but it feels like the same hand waving lumping together the general audience opinion based on assumptions of their consensus, then when it swings the other way circumstances make it all too speculative to say, I never said the fandom even should be validated as the feelings of the average audience member, it’s more like an undeniable echo, or a canary in the coal mine. But I’m not endorsing the hater narrative or kowtowing to the minority, just to say the less extreme feelings, the range within that overlap is meaningful to the deeper conversation, outside of fandom’s personal opinions and conclusions.

Again I could cite my own real world interactions with non fandom people but I don’t want to just speak from anecdotes which can also easily be discounted by nature of being an anecdote.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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Your tone is different but it feels like the same hand waving lumping together the general audience opinion based on assumptions of their consensus, then when it swings the other way circumstances

So what about the post I initially responded to sounded like the whistlings of a canary in a coal mine, or “undeniable echoes” as such?

Are you devil’s advocating in general, or do you honestly believe there’s some merit in the unrealistic assertion that people “tolerated” TFA to the astronomical success it enjoyed, and that “pent-up rage” is responsible for TLJ’s lesser box-office success? And did you honestly believe one of the four quadrants in a studio’s four-quadrant audience targeting was “online fandom?” I guess I’m not sure what hypothetical outcome you’re protecting for here, and that you think I’m unfairly dismissing out of hand.

“The deeper conversation” is better and more worthwhile when (observably false) appeals to authority are lessened, not allowed (and made room) for. If you (I’m using the royal “you” here, to clarify) have to gin up mistaken realities to support your personal feelings about a work of art, your personal feelings could probably do with more reflection, investigation, and examination before sharing them.

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It is part devil’s advocate but I’m mostly making the same point as you just in the reverse direction. I already clarified in my responses I don’t subscribe to that specific characterization or endorse bending to the will of the fandom. To me the extreme wording makes it a bit of a strawman which again is not what I’m saying is reality, but it’s also what I’m calling the canary in the coal mine, it might not be that extreme a response with your average mildly disappointed paying customer but analyzing the crossover in thought, taking those rumblings into consideration, that’s all worthwhile for the deeper conversation for me, and a more accurate picture which doesn’t appeal to authority (liked and shared youtube reviews don’t reflect the people’s opinion but a small segment of movie critics do).

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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I think it’s also nice to point out that fandoms in general are at an all time high, actually. TROS was an answer to many fan complaints from the previous two movies, the Snyder Cut of Justice League is being released…

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Anakin Starkiller said:
Clearly, the fandom can’t be that big since pretty much every corner of it hated TRoS…

I do not believe this is true. I think those who didn’t like it are disproportionately more vocal than those who did. I see many different people proclaiming they enjoyed it, but often see the same few people more frequently repeating they didn’t. Of course, all I have is my own anecdotal experience like everyone else.

We all have this tendency of confirmation bias. Information that supports our conclusion sticks out to us. Also, we often manufacture a false dichotomy where we reduce the results to “the worst ever and everyone hated it” versus “absolutely amazing and fans loved it.” We forget the most likely larger segment of some good aspects along with some bad and people having opinions somewhere in the middle.

That said, I loved it. I spotted flaws and things I would have done differently, but the more I watch it, the more I enjoy it. The flaws matter less and the parts I enjoy matter much more. I feel the same about every Star Wars movie.