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The Kenobi Movie Show (Spoilers) — Page 53

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FrederikOlsen said:
It’s never been a particularly well-written franchise, IMO.

ANH is considered one of the best scripts ever written. It’s still being studied in film school for ts achievements, thanks to Lucas rewitting it to perfect it numberous times. TESB is simply the continuation of this high quality standard rooted in the foundation of a perfect script. Only what came after wasn’t as good and was sometimes even quite terrible, such as this tv show.

« Sie sind das Essen… wir sind die Jäger! »

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MalaStrana#2 said:

FrederikOlsen said:
It’s never been a particularly well-written franchise, IMO.

ANH is considered one of the best scripts ever written. It’s still being studied in film school for ts achievements, thanks to Lucas rewitting it to perfect it numberous times. TESB is simply the continuation of this high quality standard rooted in the foundation of a perfect script. Only what came after wasn’t as good and was sometimes even quite terrible, such as this tv show.

The original Star Wars was saved in editing by cutting great chunks out of that script.

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henzINNIT said:

MalaStrana#2 said:

FrederikOlsen said:
It’s never been a particularly well-written franchise, IMO.

ANH is considered one of the best scripts ever written. It’s still being studied in film school for ts achievements, thanks to Lucas rewitting it to perfect it numberous times. TESB is simply the continuation of this high quality standard rooted in the foundation of a perfect script. Only what came after wasn’t as good and was sometimes even quite terrible, such as this tv show.

The original Star Wars was saved in editing by cutting great chunks out of that script.

Regardless…

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“Star Wars was always poorly written” is an argument I really take issue with. If the original film were poorly written, none of us would even be here with our attachment to this franchise.

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henzINNIT said:

MalaStrana#2 said:

FrederikOlsen said:
It’s never been a particularly well-written franchise, IMO.

ANH is considered one of the best scripts ever written. It’s still being studied in film school for ts achievements, thanks to Lucas rewitting it to perfect it numberous times. TESB is simply the continuation of this high quality standard rooted in the foundation of a perfect script. Only what came after wasn’t as good and was sometimes even quite terrible, such as this tv show.

The original Star Wars was saved in editing by cutting great chunks out of that script.

Speaking of esoteric scripts, I wish somebody adapted Dan Aykroyd’s original Ghostbusters script into a graphic novel. The bits we do know about it sound batshit crazy (in a good way) and I’d love to see the whole thing presented to the public with appropriate visuals.

I’m one of like, fifteen people who like Nothing But Trouble so I’d love any crazy Dan Aykroyd project.

Sausage

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Matt.F said:

Fan_edit_fan said:

Matt.F said:

Fan_edit_fan said:

Anyway, I stand by my point that a Jedi executing a fallen foe would be completely out of character with the compassion and chivalry that is their code.

Yeah, it’s real chivalrous to get people’s kids to commit murder because you’re just too “compassionate” to carry through with it. Mace Windu was about to split Palpatine in two while he was mutilated on the floor yelling “No don’t!”. Obi-Wan cut Maul in half like a savage…and shot Greivous soo many times he exploded. There’s no “code” in leaving Vader alive in the show, it’s just irresponsible writing.

Yes, of course they kill their opponents in combat (Maul and Greivous). You’ll also remember that Mace had gone to arrest Palpatine - not execute him - before the situation suddenly went nuclear.

How does that change anything I stated? Obi-Wan and Vader were opposing combatants. Mace was trying to arrest with the intent to kill if necessary, you just can’t claim Jedi won’t finish off opponents because of their “chivalrous code”. There’s not even any evidence for it.

The whole saga is based around Anakin executing a fallen opponent and turning to the Dark Side, and Luke sparing a fallen opponent and becoming a true Jedi.

Even in this particular TV show we have this rather memorable line;

“Do you know the key to hunting a Jedi, friend? It is patience. Jedi cannot help what they are. Their compassion leaves a trail.”

Again, both of Luke’s mentors wanted Luke to conquer Vader and the Emperor. Luke’s salvation lay not in obeying his Jedi teachers but in rejecting them. These are the same teachers who say that the Jedi never use the Force for attack, which means that the Jedi way is less about the actions of the Jedi and more about their mental state. If a Jedi is calm and at peace, they will know the correct action, which must include killing an enemy if need be.

If there’s a peaceful way to deal with a vanquished enemy, the Jedi should take it. That is why Anakin killing Dooku was wrong - Dooku could have been captured by Anakin and Obi-wan to stand trial for his crimes. This is also why Mace trying to kill Palpatine was justified - Palpatine would never face justice for his evil.

This is also why it is even more justified that Obi-wan kill Vader. Vader, for all intents and purposes, is the law and Obi-wan is a fugitive. Obi-wan can’t take Vader into custody, can’t hold him to account in a higher court. The only justice within this evil Empire is to resist and rebel, taking matters into one’s own hands, and since Obi-wan doesn’t finish off this evil monster he thus allows for Vader to commit further evil.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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We’d all be better off if Jodorowsky’s Dune was made instead of Star Wars. Even Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson, as they’d no longer be the weirdest writers associated with the franchise.

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I’ve recently debated with someone who swears that Obi-Wan didn’t intend for Luke to kill Vader in RotJ because it’s not the jedi way. I was floored honestly.

Servii said:

“Star Wars was always poorly written” is an argument I really take issue with. If the original film were poorly written, none of us would even be here with our attachment to this franchise.

I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Star Wars even at its best is simple, a little corny, has some funky dialogue etc. But there is a massive difference between that and something plain stupid and nonsensical, which occurs in Star Wars at its worst. It’s a lazy defense in many cases, and everyone’s tolerances will vary.

BedeHistory731 said:
Speaking of esoteric scripts, I wish somebody adapted Dan Aykroyd’s original Ghostbusters script into a graphic novel. The bits we do know about it sound batshit crazy (in a good way) and I’d love to see the whole thing presented to the public with appropriate visuals.

I’m one of like, fifteen people who like Nothing But Trouble so I’d love any crazy Dan Aykroyd project.

I’d love to see Ghostbusters: Full Aykroyd.

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Servii said:

“Star Wars was always poorly written” is an argument I really take issue with. If the original film were poorly written, none of us would even be here with our attachment to this franchise.

To be fair, assuming you refer to my post and the outrage it seems to have sparked, I never said Star Wars was poorly written. I said it’s not the most well-written franchise, and I stand by that. Lots of things were clearly made up on the go and the first film was more or less saved in editing.

There may not be anything as egregious as Reva’s inexplicable escape in the OT, but I’ll be damned if the Obi-Wan Kenobi haters would have accepted “from a certain point of view” or the passionate kiss between Luke and Leia followed by the revelation that they’re siblings and one party has “always known” if either of those happened in a current series or film franchise.

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FrederikOlsen said:

Servii said:

“Star Wars was always poorly written” is an argument I really take issue with. If the original film were poorly written, none of us would even be here with our attachment to this franchise.

To be fair, assuming you refer to my post and the outrage it seems to have sparked, I never said Star Wars was poorly written. I said it’s not the most well-written franchise, and I stand by that. Lots of things were clearly made up on the go and the first film was more or less saved in editing.

There may not be anything as egregious as Reva’s inexplicable escape in the OT, but I’ll be damned if the Obi-Wan Kenobi haters would have accepted “from a certain point of view” or the passionate kiss between Luke and Leia followed by the revelation that they’re siblings and one party has “always known” if either of those happened in a current series or film franchise.

Misteps are not a “consistency” you have to keep…there’s no excuse to not do things better than what came before. It’s called learning from mistakes. Some fans act like if it hasn’t got a lot of “dumb” in it then it isn’t “Star Wars”. Just further making excuses for bad, amateur writing.

“There’s been stupid things before so we HAVE to keep making it stupid”.

Please.

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FrederikOlsen said:

Servii said:

“Star Wars was always poorly written” is an argument I really take issue with. If the original film were poorly written, none of us would even be here with our attachment to this franchise.

To be fair, assuming you refer to my post and the outrage it seems to have sparked, I never said Star Wars was poorly written. I said it’s not the most well-written franchise, and I stand by that. Lots of things were clearly made up on the go and the first film was more or less saved in editing.

There may not be anything as egregious as Reva’s inexplicable escape in the OT, but I’ll be damned if the Obi-Wan Kenobi haters would have accepted “from a certain point of view” or the passionate kiss between Luke and Leia followed by the revelation that they’re siblings and one party has “always known” if either of those happened in a current series or film franchise.

Misteps are not a “consistency” you have to keep…there’s no excuse to not do things better than what came before. It’s called learning from mistakes. Some fans act like if it hasn’t got a lot of “dumb” in it then it isn’t “Star Wars”. Just further making excuses for bad, amateur writing.

“There’s been stupid things before so we HAVE to keep making it stupid”.

Please.

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Most of us REALLY WANTED this show to be good…not too much to ask for considering you have another shot at making the prequel characters more interesting and better direction. And some fans just get excited seeing lightsabers and don’t notice anything else…yet they’re the first ones to get mad at any constructive criticism. Baffling.

“Obi-Wan kenobi haters”…that’s hilariously childish.

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Servii said:

“Star Wars was always poorly written” is an argument I really take issue with. If the original film were poorly written, none of us would even be here with our attachment to this franchise.

Exactly. It’s okay to say the series has had bad writing on principle, but to just blanket say it as an excuse for further bad writing is just an insult to the people who worked on some of the best works in the franchise to make them the level of quality they are as pointless.

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Servii said:

“Star Wars was always poorly written” is an argument I really take issue with. If the original film were poorly written, none of us would even be here with our attachment to this franchise.

I think the dialog might be the part that was poorly written. It was full of odd technobabble that has led to several retcons. Like Kessel run in 12 parsecs.

I think the flow of the story was well done. It shows in the script and was improved in the editing room.

The dialog was partly saved because of a lot of redubbing.

and really, if you read Lucas’s writing and editing process, the original film was saved by Lucas getting a lot of input. and for TESB he turned to a very skilled writer. For the PT it was almost all on him and his flaws stand out more.

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yotsuya said:

Servii said:

“Star Wars was always poorly written” is an argument I really take issue with. If the original film were poorly written, none of us would even be here with our attachment to this franchise.

I think the dialog might be the part that was poorly written. It was full of odd technobabble that has led to several retcons. Like Kessel run in 12 parsecs.

I think the flow of the story was well done. It shows in the script and was improved in the editing room.

The dialog was partly saved because of a lot of redubbing.

and really, if you read Lucas’s writing and editing process, the original film was saved by Lucas getting a lot of input. and for TESB he turned to a very skilled writer. For the PT it was almost all on him and his flaws stand out more.

So what? Haha…just making excuses again. The flow of the story is one of the most insulting parts of the show…can’t blame just “dialog” alone. Every plot point of how people go from one thing to the next, one place to the other is ALL contrived in this show. And pointing fingers at how things needed extra help for sharpening in the past just disapproves your point further. Because OBVIOUSLY this script wasn’t gone over with a fine comb to flesh out the logistical details.

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Fan_edit_fan said:
And pointing fingers at how things needed extra help for sharpening in the past just disapproves your point further. Because OBVIOUSLY this script wasn’t gone over with a fine comb to flesh out the logistical details.

This especially bugs me because this is the excuse I most see coming from the writers about how the things they did actually added needed context or explained things better, when none of what they did in this show accomplished that? We didn’t need an entire series to explain how Leia knew Obi-Wan, the implication that she learned of him through her father was enough without adding a confusing side story in the mix. We didn’t need Obi-Wan and Vader to fight in between Episode III and IV just to justify where he started calling him “Darth,” it wasn’t necessary.

And the thing is I’m not even saying it’s impossible to do a show like this and make it work; they COULD HAVE still done these things if they were much more careful with how they wrote this show, but they weren’t. For being LucasFilm’s crown jewel this year, this show was extremely sloppy in basically every area.

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henzINNIT said:

MalaStrana#2 said:

FrederikOlsen said:
It’s never been a particularly well-written franchise, IMO.

ANH is considered one of the best scripts ever written. It’s still being studied in film school for ts achievements, thanks to Lucas rewitting it to perfect it numberous times. TESB is simply the continuation of this high quality standard rooted in the foundation of a perfect script. Only what came after wasn’t as good and was sometimes even quite terrible, such as this tv show.

The original Star Wars was saved in editing by cutting great chunks out of that script.

I see the consequences of an interesting YouTube video… you confuse the script quality and the final movie. Also reaching the « simplicity » of ANH is incredibly difficult : just see how complex OWK is. Complex and badly written. ANH has 2 action scenes in its first 30 minutes, introduces all its protagonists, establishes a complete universe with its rules and its story with what is clearly at stake (again compare with OWK: when does this show even try to create stakes others that the fact the audience knows Leia and Luke are kinda important in LATER movies?). You even get long sequences without dialogues and you get to follow two characters where none of which is even human. Simplicity here is the consequence of hard work, of multiple rewrites, of research, etc. OWK looks like a first draft that went in production as-is…

SW wasn’t saved through editing : editing made it better. So was the music, the clever casting choices, the special effects, etc. It’s a miracle. Which could only exist because it has the solid roots of an amazing script that EVERY screenwriter does study.

I can’t believe on this forum that we need to explain why ANH is a tremendous script 😅

« Sie sind das Essen… wir sind die Jäger! »

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MalaStrana#2 said:

henzINNIT said:

MalaStrana#2 said:

FrederikOlsen said:
It’s never been a particularly well-written franchise, IMO.

ANH is considered one of the best scripts ever written. It’s still being studied in film school for ts achievements, thanks to Lucas rewitting it to perfect it numberous times. TESB is simply the continuation of this high quality standard rooted in the foundation of a perfect script. Only what came after wasn’t as good and was sometimes even quite terrible, such as this tv show.

The original Star Wars was saved in editing by cutting great chunks out of that script.

I see the consequences of an interesting YouTube video… you confuse the script quality and the final movie. SW wasn’t saved through editing : editing made it better.
I can’t believe on this forum that we need to explain why ANH is a tremendous script 😅

Well, it is true that the script devoted a lot of pages to duff scenes like Luke and Biggs at Anchorhead, Luke and 3PO in the speeder, redundant lines that would draw out dialogue (“Right now I don’t feel too good…”), dialogue that was so awkward that even the actors lobbied for its removal, and even some dialogue scenes that were paced really oddly until being rearranged at the 11th hour, like Obi-Wan and Luke in the former’s hut. I don’t think it’s heresy to say that the script has its problems. That just makes one appreciate all the stuff it gets right.

What I really do admire Star Wars for, script-wise, is how perfectly it uses The Hero’s Journey to tell its story, and how Lucas starts the film in medias res to make a galaxy that feels huge and could only really become smaller from that point on.

We’ve never seen the franchise doing something that brave since, though with what he’s saying in interviews, Taika Waititi may also go for that approach.

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yotsuya said:

the original film was saved by Lucas getting a lot of input.

It’s called a writing process and putting hard work… of course you don’t reach perfection by writing first drafts that aren’t challenged. Something Lucas himself forgot when he wrote the PT: the core story was there but none of the hard reshape work was put into them. The gap between ANH and TPM lies there. Since at least Lucas is a wonderful storyteller there still is something appealing to those stories though : this is why the gap is also wide between TPM and OWK, this later being the low point of the saga in term of script where nothing is earned and no stakes are developed (I can’t still believe that Reva took Leia to interrogate her while Vader was fighting Ben: wasn’t her point to lure Vader into a trap so why the fuck is she doing that except for lazy screenwriters to remake ANH in the next episode ?).

and for TESB he turned to a very skilled writer.

And yet they drastically changed the first version of the script. Putting lots of work to make a worthy sequel rooted from ANH abs going into new directions.

You seem to discover that you get something of quality through hard work…

« Sie sind das Essen… wir sind die Jäger! »

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MalaStrana#2 said:

henzINNIT said:

MalaStrana#2 said:

FrederikOlsen said:
It’s never been a particularly well-written franchise, IMO.

ANH is considered one of the best scripts ever written. It’s still being studied in film school for ts achievements, thanks to Lucas rewitting it to perfect it numberous times. TESB is simply the continuation of this high quality standard rooted in the foundation of a perfect script. Only what came after wasn’t as good and was sometimes even quite terrible, such as this tv show.

The original Star Wars was saved in editing by cutting great chunks out of that script.

I see the consequences of an interesting YouTube video… you confuse the script quality and the final movie. Also reaching the « simplicity » of ANH is incredibly difficult : just see how complex OWK is. Complex and badly written. ANH has 2 action scenes in its first 30 minutes, introduces all its protagonists, establishes a complete universe with its rules and its story with what is clearly at stake (again compare with OWK: when does this show even try to create stakes others that the fact the audience knows Leia and Luke are kinda important in LATER movies?). You even get long sequences without dialogues and you get to follow two characters where none of which is even human. Simplicity here is the consequence of hard work, of multiple rewrites, of research, etc. OWK looks like a first draft that went in production as-is…

SW wasn’t saved through editing : editing made it better. So was the music, the clever casting choices, the special effects, etc. It’s a miracle. Which could only exist because it has the solid roots of an amazing script that EVERY screenwriter does study.

I can’t believe on this forum that we need to explain why ANH is a tremendous script 😅

I don’t get what you’re arguing here. I’ve never said ANH is comparable to OBK in terms of script. The latter clearly has many issues that I am not defending.

The ANH script had everything it needed to be the film it became. I’m not slating it or the film. It also had a bunch of crap in it. Hard work across the board made the FILM work. The rough cut that more closely resembled the shooting script was described as an unmitigated disaster. I didn’t hear this in a ‘youtube video’, it was in the DVD documentary. The deleted scenes exist. It was edited to perfection.

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henzINNIT said:

MalaStrana#2 said:

henzINNIT said:

MalaStrana#2 said:

FrederikOlsen said:
It’s never been a particularly well-written franchise, IMO.

ANH is considered one of the best scripts ever written. It’s still being studied in film school for ts achievements, thanks to Lucas rewitting it to perfect it numberous times. TESB is simply the continuation of this high quality standard rooted in the foundation of a perfect script. Only what came after wasn’t as good and was sometimes even quite terrible, such as this tv show.

The original Star Wars was saved in editing by cutting great chunks out of that script.

I see the consequences of an interesting YouTube video… you confuse the script quality and the final movie. Also reaching the « simplicity » of ANH is incredibly difficult : just see how complex OWK is. Complex and badly written. ANH has 2 action scenes in its first 30 minutes, introduces all its protagonists, establishes a complete universe with its rules and its story with what is clearly at stake (again compare with OWK: when does this show even try to create stakes others that the fact the audience knows Leia and Luke are kinda important in LATER movies?). You even get long sequences without dialogues and you get to follow two characters where none of which is even human. Simplicity here is the consequence of hard work, of multiple rewrites, of research, etc. OWK looks like a first draft that went in production as-is…

SW wasn’t saved through editing : editing made it better. So was the music, the clever casting choices, the special effects, etc. It’s a miracle. Which could only exist because it has the solid roots of an amazing script that EVERY screenwriter does study.

I can’t believe on this forum that we need to explain why ANH is a tremendous script 😅

I don’t get what you’re arguing here. I’ve never said ANH is comparable to OBK in terms of script. The latter clearly has many issues that I am not defending.

The ANH script had everything it needed to be the film it became. I’m not slating it or the film. It also had a bunch of crap in it. Hard work across the board made the FILM work. The rough cut that more closely resembled the shooting script was described as an unmitigated disaster. I didn’t hear this in a ‘youtube video’, it was in the DVD documentary. The deleted scenes exist. It was edited to perfection.

I personally the “whole unmitigated disaster” is a hyperbole, that became very popular in the wake of the PT in part to discredit Lucas, but also a rationalization for the difference in percieved quality between the original film and the PT.

Here’s another perspective on this idea:

https://youtu.be/olqVGz6mOVE

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I’d say we had it right in the post-PT years with the discrediting and any attempts at revisionism have been straight-up apologia.

Plinkett was right and continues to be more and more right (minus the cringey sketch bits and “dark humor” in the videos).

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BedeHistory731 said:

I’d say we had it right in the post-PT years with the discrediting and any attempts at revisionism have been straight-up apologia.

Plinkett was right and continues to be more and more right (minus the cringey sketch bits and “dark humor” in the videos).

Well, except the part where he vouched for JJ Abrams to direct the Star Wars sequel trilogy :p

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Kaweebo said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I’d say we had it right in the post-PT years with the discrediting and any attempts at revisionism have been straight-up apologia.

Plinkett was right and continues to be more and more right (minus the cringey sketch bits and “dark humor” in the videos).

Well, except the part where he vouched for JJ Abrams to direct the Star Wars sequel trilogy :p

Not sure if he vouched for him being a co-writer.

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Kaweebo said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I’d say we had it right in the post-PT years with the discrediting and any attempts at revisionism have been straight-up apologia.

Plinkett was right and continues to be more and more right (minus the cringey sketch bits and “dark humor” in the videos).

Well, except the part where he vouched for JJ Abrams to direct the Star Wars sequel trilogy :p

It did give us an excellent illustration of Gen X directors interpreting the “betrayal” of their childhood franchises by said franchises’ boomer creators. His two films fit in well with things like Fanboys, The People vs. George Lucas, both recent Ghostbusters movies, and Galaxy Quest - they’re more interesting as examinations of Gen X’s relation to fandom culture/parasocial relationships with creators than they are good movies. Except Galaxy Quest, which is an all-time classic.

I’d throw Fault in Our Stars in there, but the author relationship plot is more of a background element (and is the least exploitative part of the book/movie).