ROTJ is the best Star Wars film... discuss! — Page 20

imperialscum said:

Hmm what about ROTJ's final battle and ending. There are actually some fans who "want" realism and originality while at the same time would prefer to see a final rebel assault on imperial capital, ending with Emperor's destruction. That is one of the biggest contradictions I have ever heard. Poor rebels attacking the imperial capital and wining is the most unrealistic ending possible, as well as the most unoriginal and banal. Every other trilogy has a dumb ending like that (LOTR, Matrix etc).

ROTJ ending is original and unique. Taking place in some remote region (unlike the usual centre of bad guys' power) and the unique, simplistic and "crude" death of the main villain are just perfect. His most trusted agent picks him up and throws him into the shaft. Again, perfect.

Well the battle is still a bit unrealistic but that is as far as we can really go with it (considering it is a fantasy trilogy). The only more realistic thing would be Emperor dying of a heart attack and the empire collapsing as a result of in-fighting.

As the Death Star was supposed to be the "ultimate power in the universe", I assumed that the Emperor was going to use it as his new mobile capital, complete with a tower of Barad-dur. So really, the "[p]oor rebels attacking the imperial capital and winning" is exactly what happened. I wouldn't say that it was unoriginal. Sure, LOTR did it, but the Matrix Revolutions came out two decades after ROTJ, so it's Revolutions that fails to be revolutionary, not ROTJ.

As for the end being perfect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAOX_CHU0JY

I don't think Death Star is an equivalent for the senate or any kind of seat of power. The closest equivalent is British navy in the 19th and early 20th century. It was used to keep control of the subjugated land across the world. If someone resisted they would use the navy to spank them. King was still in London.

And certainly half finished DS2 wasn't safer than Coruscant. Emperor didn't come on unfinished DS2 to be safe. The only reason Emperor came to Endor was to get Luke (and possibly destroy Alliance in the process).

Since some fans say the imps shouldn't build DS2 because clearly the first one was proved weak. I mentioned 20th century navy. Post WW1 battleship building is a perfect example of man being capable of building extremely expensive and at the same time useless things over and over again.

imperialscum said:

 The only reason Emperor came to Endor was to get Luke (and possibly destroy Alliance in the process).

Isn't it the other way around?

timdiggerm said:

imperialscum said:

 The only reason Emperor came to Endor was to get Luke (and possibly destroy Alliance in the process).

Isn't it the other way around?

I think his primary goal was Luke. Everything else seems to be secondary and subordinate to that. If his primary goal was to destroy Alliance he wouldn't order fleet to hold while its star-fighter complement was wasted on rebels.

imperialscum said:

I think his primary goal was Luke. Everything else seems to be secondary and subordinate to that. If his primary goal was to destroy Alliance he wouldn't order fleet to hold while its star-fighter complement was wasted on rebels.

He orders the fleet to hold so they don't get destroyed by the blasts coming from that Death Star! Meanwhile, the fighters are there to make it look like the Imperials are actually attacking with their fleet. They're just keeping the Rebels busy until the DS opens fire.

Bingowings said:

Vader hopes Luke will be take is place as second in command with himself as the new Emperor.

I've always understood that as Vader's overt motivation in Empire, but I actually like the idea of that as a motivation in Jedi too.

Vader brings Luke to the throne room so that together they can defeat the Emperor, but he can't tell Luke this directly because Luke is not interested in an imperial power grab... yet.  But Luke fails to act against the Emperor on his own (fails to turn to the dark side), and Vader sees his chances of a successful coup dropping by the second.  So he hastily grabs the Emperor and stages the coup single-handedly... critically injuring himself in the process.

So it wasn't an act of self-sacrifice, it was a simple coup gone wrong.  Vader's "you were right about me" at the end was just as disingenuous as the deathbed confession of any bastard who wants to whitewash his record before it's too late.  And Luke buys the whole act, the credulous schmuck.  Blown up planets?  Torture?  Forget all that, Luke had a Special Moment with his dad.

I'm not sure how I can work in the whole force ghost thing, but I actually like this interpretation enough that I'm willing to bend a few facts to make them fit ;)

Bingowings said:

Luke is either a replacement for Darth or a replacement for Palpatine which Palpatine has to remove with Darth.

Having Luke watch while his friends are killed is meant to goad Luke into action so what imperialscum says is true ... from a certain point of view.

After the Rebels are gone and the Death Star is completed other things will rise against the regime (probably from within it).

Palpatine hopes Luke will be able keep hammering down those nails when the pop up.

Vader hopes Luke will be take is place as second in command with himself as the new Emperor.

^ This

imperialscum said:

I don't think Death Star is an equivalent for the senate or any kind of seat of power. The closest equivalent is British navy in the 19th and early 20th century. It was used to keep control of the subjugated land across the world. If someone resisted they would use the navy to spank them. King was still in London.

And certainly half finished DS2 wasn't safer than Coruscant. Emperor didn't come on unfinished DS2 to be safe. The only reason Emperor came to Endor was to get Luke (and possibly destroy Alliance in the process).

Since some fans say the imps shouldn't build DS2 because clearly the first one was proved weak. I mentioned 20th century navy. Post WW1 battleship building is a perfect example of man being capable of building extremely expensive and at the same time useless things over and over again.

Works pretty darn well for an unfinished battle station. As I've said before, the unfinished look was part of the trap. Unless you think Palpy was lying about the "fully operational" bit.

For Vader to be protecting his son for the wrong reasons, Luke and Palpatine have to be totally wrong about the internal conflict they both sense in him.

Have we really become that cynical and jaded?

SilverWook said:

For Vader to be protecting his son for the wrong reasons, Luke and Palpatine have to be totally wrong about the internal conflict they both sense in him.

Have we really become that cynical and jaded?

Or, going off my pet theory which is almost certainly wrong but still delightful, the internal conflict is simply over something else.  Yes, he's conflicted about Luke, but the conflict is over exactly how to achieve all his machinations without either Luke or the Emperor finding out.

And hey, speaking of cynical and jaded, since the (gah!) "saga" is supposedly all about Vader now, don't you think it's appropriate that it's all about this guy who spent so much time destroying things, but who manages to whitewash his own history and convince people into thinking he's a good guy, and that this was his plan all along?  I'd say it's inspired!

It's pretty clear from the way that Vader looks at the Emperor, looks at Luke, looks at the Emperor, looks at Luke, and then yells "NOOOOOO" that he's in it to save Luke.

timdiggerm said:

It's pretty clear from the way that Vader looks at the Emperor, looks at Luke, looks at the Emperor, looks at Luke, and then yells "NOOOOOO" that he's in it to save Luke.

He yells what??

The thing is, the mask hides a lot.  It's a blank slate upon which you can write your own personal interpretations and wishes.

He looks at the Emperor, thinking, "I do not want to take this guy on alone. That's what I brought Luke here for.  Part muscle and part cannon fodder."

He looks at Luke and thinks, "This guy is not turning. He is not fighting back. He's gonna die and then I'm stuck subservient to Pruneface forever."

He looks back at the Emperor, thinking, "Screw it, it's now or never.  Maybe I can get him over to that convenient pit before he fries the bejeezus out of me.  Beats the alternative."

If he yells "NOOO" it's pretty much a non-sequitur any way you look at it.

Bingowings said:

I think Yoda suspects Anakin might still be the wild card.

He should have been "The Other" instead of Leia after ROTJ turned out to be the last film ever.

Almost everyone other than Luke seems to have forgotten that Jedi.

I agree on that. I once suggested this on IMDb boards but people didn't like it. :)

Actually I went a bit further. Maybe the main plan of Obi-Wan and Yoda was to just use Luke to trigger the return of Anakin. I think it is a bit too much to hope for that Luke could defeat both Emperor and Vader, especially when they started to train him at the age of 18.

TV's Frink said:

timdiggerm said:

It's pretty clear from the way that Vader looks at the Emperor, looks at Luke, looks at the Emperor, looks at Luke, and then yells "NOOOOOO" that he's in it to save Luke.

I'm 99% sure you're making a joke here.

Don't worry, Frink, we are the 99%.

Bingowings said:

He (Anakin) should have been "The Other" instead of Leia after ROTJ turned out to be the last film ever.

Almost everyone other than Luke seems to have forgotten that Jedi.

I agree. I've always thought that the title "Return Of The Jedi" was (or should be) referencing Anikins return. Anikin should be "the other". Hell, he is at the end of the story! Luke couldn't destroy the Emperor on his own, neither could Vader.

What Obi-Wan should have said was "The 'other' Yoda spoke of is your dead old dad. Yoda still believes there is good in him... But he's more machine now than man. Twisted and evil."

imperialscum said:

Bingowings said:

Planet Killing Space Station CHECK

Of course there was a planet killing station. Should imps start to build refrigerators instead?

?

timdiggerm said:

It's pretty clear from the way that Vader looks at the Emperor, looks at Luke, looks at the Emperor, looks at Luke, and then yells "NOOOOOO" that he's in it to save Luke.

 Yes, it's the NOOOoooOOO what clinches it.  For years, I wondered what could possibly be going on in his head.  Maybe he twitched... Maybe he fell asleep and was startling awake.  With that helmet on, it's really hard to tell his emotional state. 

I never liked RotJ because the ending was so confusing!  WHAT IS VADER DOING?  IT MAKES NO SENSE!  I would tell myself.  But now that he says NOOOoooOOOO!  It made me pretty sure this is what is going on: He doesn't like what is happening.  At least, I'm reasonably confident in that, now with the added NOOOoooOOOO and all.

However it still is the matter of some debate, as CatBus has illuminated.  Perhaps in the next revision of RotJ, he will say:

Vader: I won't let you kill my son- you b$@#%!  Nay- rather I will pick you up and throw you hence, into the heart of the space station which you love!  Oh, the irony- that you have no heart, you life ruining cur, and should be thrown into a metal heart!  Just like the one which you gave me- not to say you actually gave it to me, but by the events which you manipulated came into play the cybernetic heart which beats in my chest for the son which I now know means more to me than life!  Have at thee!

(then he throws him into the shaft)

Vader(con't): There.  It is over.  He is ended.  And, anon, I shall be as well.  After six movies, I have redeemed myself.  Verily, I have returned.  And a Jedi I be, at last.  Thus, ladies and gentleman, The Return of the Jedi.

Luke: You can't die!

Vader: Deny me not, my son.  I enter now, with only my deeds and my name, into the great unknown.  The undiscovered country.

Luke: Star Trek 6?

Vader: Tis a metaphor for death, my son.

Luke: Oh.

I think that would remove all doubt about some of the ambiguities.  The NOOOoooOOOO helped, but this would really seal the deal.  And, if it didn't... Ric Olié could be added to summarize the finale.  Perhaps at the Ewok party.  Or, perhaps, his force ghost can join the trio and he can explain it all then.

TV's Frink said:

I see you've remodeled your kitchen.

 I wish!