No explanation necessary (but we got one anyway) — Page 2

 In TPM Maul says, “At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we will have our revenge”

So they will gain revenge by revealing themselves to the Jedi? This line doesn’t do much except reinforce the aforementioned rule of two. It is inferred that the Sith want revenge, but no motivation is revealed at any point in any of the movies.

Not to mention the line brings to mind images of Darth Maul standing before Yoda opening his raincoat.

Gaffer Tape said:

Wow, I could have sworn I'd had this conversation in this same thread no less than three years ago!  ^_~  But here we go again.  Just to clarify:  immaculate conception is not in the least the same thing as conceiving a child without a sexual partner.  And now we know... and knowing is half the... sigh, that G.I. Joe movie sucked!

Holy virgin birth then. We all know from TPM that Lucas intended Anakin to be all "Son of God" and godlike and holy and oh-so-special, with massive Christ echoes. Which there was curiously zero hint of in the OT. It's all part of the same revisionist bullshit as Annie having more midichlorians than anybody and being the bestest jedi ever and being the Chosen One (and here I thought that was Buffy), complete with a goddamn prophecy, and to make this work with the OT we have to have this crap that Vader was all broken down as a force user due to his bionics. (And his bionics are why he can't use force lightning, rather than the obvious original state of things in which force lightning was special to somebody as poweful as Palps and not just any old dark sider could use it.) This was all Lucas's original story of course, which was why there was zero sign of it in the OT and why it sticks out as being at odds with mentality of the OT.

cap said:

auraloffalwaffle said:

I particularly hate the Immaculate Conception idea.

What immaculate conception?  I always figured Shmi just got really drunk at a frat party, got knocked up, and didn’t remember the encounter.

Well, it could be that she did it with Yoda and didn't want to admit she screwed a little green guy. Or Jar Jar could have been the father. That would explain Anakin's intelligence level. I mean, the general impression you get from ROTS is that Annie turned dark because he was too damn dumb to know better.

Whiners said:

 

Do you realize how hypocritical you're being? First you're saying how they explained things in the prequels you would've liked to imagine happen in your demented little head instead, yet now you're making it sound bad that they're making questions like that with the new prequels! There was a 16 year difference in between RotJ and TPM, why would you not want those questions answered? I think it was great the way George Lucas gave people all that time to answer them, so people could wonder for years and then finally find out the truely canon answer, than just releasing the prequels three years after RotJ. Of course, you people know nothing about being creative.

Truly canon answer? How is that garbage canon? It isn't even Star wars, let alone canon.

And how does people finding fault with Lucas's work demonstrate that they know nothing about being creative?

Gaffer Tape said:Yeah, because, you know, it's just so darned creative to make three movies that totally contradict every bit of backstory mentioned in your previous three movies to the point that you have to go back to those three movies and make changes to them to cover your ass.

God bless creativity!

lol

I didn't like the allusions to Jesus either, in regards to Anakin.

Explaining how the Force works, when it was already done in ESB was pretty bad.

You had Yoda and this elegant explanation of, "It surrounds us...luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."

It seems like Lucas wanted to add more of a SF angle to his story by adding symbiotes, and midichlorine counts. The Force went from this cool mystical thing to a video game power up bar.

Knightmessenger said:

The Faketrix

Oh sure, give away the plot!

Whiners said:

You know, I'm sick of people saying this crap about contradictions. Okay, I will explain every contradiction I've heard about, and why it's not contradicting, and if there are any I left out, then go ahead and tell me what I did leave out and I will explain that.

Obi-Wan saying that he had two pupils, Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader: He said this in order to make the tale sound more dramatic to Luke and the audience, claiming that Darth Vader was a different pupil of his, showing that Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker knew each other.
Obi-Wan not telling Luke his father was Vader: Okay, ever since the prequel trilogy, many mentally retarded people have been asking this for some odd reason. It was a fucking secret, they're not going to change that just because the prequel trilogy came out and not let Luke know his father was Vader.
Obi-Wan claiming he was trained by Yoda and not Qui-Gon: Why exactly would Luke need to know about Qui-Gon? He's in the snow, he's trying his best to stay alive, why would Obi-Wan say "Run to Dagobah, and find master Yoda. Oh and Qui-Gon taught me as a padawan."
The new emporer scene: Have you ever thought maybe Vader asks "how is this possible" because he's just in disbelief that a Jedi gave birth when it's against the Jedi code? I'd be surprised too.
"Jedi Rocks" being a song about Jedi after the extermination: Jabba knows about Jedi. Remember when he tells Bib that he was fooled about a Jedi mind trick? Jabba's lair is very secretive, there are absolutely no imperials there. So why not sing a song about Jedi? Now if Jedi Rocks was played in a cantina or something, that'd be a different story. Also note that even if there were stormtroopers there, they probably don't even know what Jedi are either, nor that they are supposed to be extinct. That's something only people who lived during the prequel trilogy would know.

 I think the first two points were pretty much clear ever since that famous scene in ESB. No contradictions there, no. No one even had ROTJ by the time this much was cleared up, let alone any prequels.

Now, the way Obi-Wan tells Luke to go to Dagobah, he adds that Yoda was his instructor as an aside, this is important to the subtext that you are missing here. He could have said anything from "The grand master of the Jedi" "the great Jedi Master" etc. But no, it was very specifically Yoda who instructed him. Not Yoda who instructed everyone, not Qui-Gon who instruced him, not anything else. How to construe it otherwise is a stretch and always will be. As you say he wouldn't have added it lest it was important. Likewise the relationship between Yoda nad Obi-Wan's ghost is shown to be more specific, that of a teacher and his pupil, rather than the pupil/principal relationship Yoda shares with most Jedi in the prequels. Heck, Anakin is allowed to be trained he's never even let anywhere near Yoda. And certainly wasn't instructed by him so that discounts the "trains everyone" bullshit.

Anyway going off on a limb here, but it is inconsistent.

When was giving birth against the Jedi Code? I remember that commiting to a relationship is but giving birth? Besides Padmé wasn't a bloody Jedi anyways and Anakin didn't give birth to anything. O_o

BmB said:

Whiners said:

You know, I'm sick of people saying this crap about contradictions. Okay, I will explain every contradiction I've heard about, and why it's not contradicting, and if there are any I left out, then go ahead and tell me what I did leave out and I will explain that.

Obi-Wan saying that he had two pupils, Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader: He said this in order to make the tale sound more dramatic to Luke and the audience, claiming that Darth Vader was a different pupil of his, showing that Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker knew each other.
Obi-Wan not telling Luke his father was Vader: Okay, ever since the prequel trilogy, many mentally retarded people have been asking this for some odd reason. It was a fucking secret, they're not going to change that just because the prequel trilogy came out and not let Luke know his father was Vader.
Obi-Wan claiming he was trained by Yoda and not Qui-Gon: Why exactly would Luke need to know about Qui-Gon? He's in the snow, he's trying his best to stay alive, why would Obi-Wan say "Run to Dagobah, and find master Yoda. Oh and Qui-Gon taught me as a padawan."
The new emporer scene: Have you ever thought maybe Vader asks "how is this possible" because he's just in disbelief that a Jedi gave birth when it's against the Jedi code? I'd be surprised too.
"Jedi Rocks" being a song about Jedi after the extermination: Jabba knows about Jedi. Remember when he tells Bib that he was fooled about a Jedi mind trick? Jabba's lair is very secretive, there are absolutely no imperials there. So why not sing a song about Jedi? Now if Jedi Rocks was played in a cantina or something, that'd be a different story. Also note that even if there were stormtroopers there, they probably don't even know what Jedi are either, nor that they are supposed to be extinct. That's something only people who lived during the prequel trilogy would know.

 I think the first two points were pretty much clear ever since that famous scene in ESB. No contradictions there, no. No one even had ROTJ by the time this much was cleared up, let alone any prequels.

Now, the way Obi-Wan tells Luke to go to Dagobah, he adds that Yoda was his instructor as an aside, this is important to the subtext that you are missing here. He could have said anything from "The grand master of the Jedi" "the great Jedi Master" etc. But no, it was very specifically Yoda who instructed him. Not Yoda who instructed everyone, not Qui-Gon who instruced him, not anything else. How to construe it otherwise is a stretch and always will be. As you say he wouldn't have added it lest it was important. Likewise the relationship between Yoda nad Obi-Wan's ghost is shown to be more specific, that of a teacher and his pupil, rather than the pupil/principal relationship Yoda shares with most Jedi in the prequels. Heck, Anakin is allowed to be trained he's never even let anywhere near Yoda. And certainly wasn't instructed by him so that discounts the "trains everyone" bullshit.

Anyway going off on a limb here, but it is inconsistent.

When was giving birth against the Jedi Code? I remember that commiting to a relationship is but giving birth? Besides Padmé wasn't a bloody Jedi anyways and Anakin didn't give birth to anything. O_o

It's not really inconsistant, one of the first lines out of Obi-Wan's mouth in TPM is that "but Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future..." the point is hit further by showing Yoda training children in AOTC, and even after that he was giving Kenobi guidance and instruction as seen in ROTS. I never thought you could read so much in a vague line in ESB. It all comes from watching 4-6 first and conceiving your mind what those vague statements meant for many years before the prequels.