Y’know what’s funny? The term “Mary Sue” comes from a character created by a female writer.
Wikipedia “Mary Sue” article said:
The term “Mary Sue” comes from the name of a character created by Paula Smith in 1973 for her parody story “A Trekkie’s Tale”[2]:15 published in her fanzine Menagerie #2.[3] The story starred Lieutenant Mary Sue (“the youngest Lieutenant in the fleet — only fifteen and a half years old”), and satirized unrealistic Star Trek fan fiction.
Oh my god, it can’t be sexist if a woman created the term!
…
It’s not the term itself, it’s how it’s used. And it’s sexist because no one ever accuses male characters of being a Mary Sue, or a Gary Stu, or Harry Flu, or whatever.
There’s your FFS right back at you, Bingo.
It’s not the term itself, it’s how it’s used. And it’s sexist because no one ever accuses male characters of being a Mary Sue, or a Gary Stu, or Harry Flu, or whatever.
Right. Obviously the author of that serial didn’t mean for it to be an offensive term. So the “a woman invented it so it’s not offensive” argument, in this case, is stupid. For the author, it was the name of a character in a satirical story that made fun of outlandish fiction by creating a hyperbolic example, who happened to be a girl named Mary Sue, and now society has turned the name into a one-sided (gender-wise) concept that is offensive, as is how a great deal of offensive terms “originate.”
I would put this in my sig if I weren’t so lazy.
Having the OT as my first visualisation of the saga, whenever I hear the name “Anakin Skywalker” I think of Luke’s mysterious father and in Vader’s past. I think of a character that has the solemnity of the original Lord of the Sith, that was on pair with Obi Wan Kenobi, that was his same age and that was the main reference for the galaxy as a warrior and as a friend.
This is what comes to my mind when I think of Anakin; a story insinuated in the OT and one I wanted to hear or see for so long, and which I didn’t get until a certain animated CGI cartoon came out and made of Anakin everything he was meant to be. (special reference for today’s episode of Rebels).
That’s why I feel angry and disappointed with the PT. But that is also why no matter how flawed, I’ll always lean and feel more related to the story of the characters I wanted to know more about when I was a kid than to Rey Whoever or Defecting Stormtrooper, or Orange Yoda or whocares. The characters I cared and care about are the Jedi, Obi Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker.
If anything, I care about the ST because of Luke, Han and Leia. To me the saga ended with a perfect wrap up in ROTJ. Luke finds closure there. I didn’t need to see him ghostly-mystic-majestic-cool master of the universe…those have always been Anakin and Obi Wan at some point in their lives to me.
It’s not the term itself, it’s how it’s used. And it’s sexist because no one ever accuses male characters of being a Mary Sue, or a Gary Stu, or Harry Flu, or whatever.
Wesley Crusher (a man… sort of) is quite possibly the most referenced Mary Sue character in the history of fiction. He is even mentioned in the Wiki page!
Mary Sue is not sexist, this is language police gone mad and I guarantee it is not offensive to 99% of human beings on the planet earth. Pretending that it is sexist is a disservice to people who have experienced legitimate sexism. When at a restaurant while visiting Turkey, a relative of mine witnessed a woman get kicked by her husband for merely making eye contact with a male server. That is sexism. Uttering the term Mary Sue is not.
The Person in Question
It’s not the term itself, it’s how it’s used. And it’s sexist because no one ever accuses male characters of being a Mary Sue, or a Gary Stu, or Harry Flu, or whatever.
Wesley Crusher (a man… sort of) is quite possibly the most referenced Mary Sue character in the history of fiction. He is even mentioned in the Wiki page!
Mary Sue is not sexist, this is language police gone mad and I guarantee it is not offensive to 99% of human beings on the planet earth. Pretending that it is sexist is a disservice to people who have experienced legitimate sexism. When at a restaurant while visiting Turkey, a relative of mine witnessed a woman get kicked by her husband for merely making eye contact with a male server. That is sexism. Uttering the term Mary Sue is not.
What we’re getting at is the way it was used is sexist. If a character is legitimately a Mary Sue or the male equivalent, sure. We’re just saying that in this context, no one in their right mind would assume this of Rey, so her sex must be contributing to OP’s conception. That’s all.
I would put this in my sig if I weren’t so lazy.
To me the saga ended with a perfect wrap up in ROTJ.
For our characters? Definitely. For the overall story? Nope. The prospect of teddy bears being the thing that topples The Empire is…distasteful. Also having the entire Galaxy celebrate the victory of the Rebellion over The Empire when there are surely millions of Storm Troopers and hundreds of thousands if not millions of ships left doesn’t make any sense either. The war would have been far from over.
On a side note how Vader got redeemed was beautiful but him showing up as a Force Spirit is troublesome too. For one how did he know the ability? Secondly, is all of the darkness inside him gone? It would be unconvincing to me if suddenly Anakin is a completely good person with no signs of his old temperament.
I don’t know…the ending just never worked for me.
It’s not the term itself, it’s how it’s used. And it’s sexist because no one ever accuses male characters of being a Mary Sue, or a Gary Stu, or Harry Flu, or whatever.
Wesley Crusher (a man… sort of) is quite possibly the most referenced Mary Sue character in the history of fiction. He is even mentioned in the Wiki page!
Well if it’s on Wiki it must be true.
I’ve literally never heard a single male character called this other than what you just said, and I’m not the only one.
And sexism takes many forms. You don’t have to be physically assaulted to be a victim.
It’s not the term itself, it’s how it’s used. And it’s sexist because no one ever accuses male characters of being a Mary Sue, or a Gary Stu, or Harry Flu, or whatever.
Wesley Crusher (a man… sort of) is quite possibly the most referenced Mary Sue character in the history of fiction. He is even mentioned in the Wiki page!
Well if it’s on Wiki it must be true.
I’ve literally never heard a single male character called this other than what you just said, and I’m not the only one.
And sexism takes many forms. You don’t have to be physically assaulted to be a victim.
I do not think Rey is a Mary Sue, but I will not just throw the accusation of sexism at people who think she is. I can understand why someone might say that she is a Mary Sue for seemingly mastering the force so quickly. I think since she had been living in the desert fending for herself for pretty much her whole life it makes perfect sense to me that she could handle herself and learn quickly. Being able to beat Kylo Ren and read his mind without any legitimate training is what bothered a lot of people.
I still think that complaining about a word and saying we should stop using it, especially a word used to label fictional (as in not real) characters, is the height of first world problems. The reason I brought up my example of sexism earlier was to implore people offended by the word “Mary Sue” to #CheckYourPrivilege.
The Person in Question
moviefreakedmind said:
Being able to beat Kylo Ren
The film makers put in extenuating circumstances that led to Kylo Ren’s defeat. Having people use their brains was too much to ask for seeing as how the meme culture frowns upon it but in my mind that doesn’t excuse a large number of people from not thinking.
and read his mind without any legitimate training is what bothered a lot of people.
Didn’t seem to bother a lot of people when Luke deflected those blaster bolts after a few seconds of “training” from Obi-Wan. That and him blowing up the Death Star are just shrugged off. If were comparing impossible feats Luke blowing up the Death Star is far more outlandish than Rey defeating a severely wounded Kylo Ren and getting into his mind.
Lastly, why can’t people wait until her origins are full explained before calling her a Mary Sue? Is simple patience too much to ask for as well?
I was going to respond to that post until I got to the completely pointless hashtag.
The only thing I will say about that post is that people used to use the N-word and the F-word (not the curse) freely. I’m not exactly equating the two situations, but words do have power and ignoring their effects is not something civilized society should strive for.
Firstly, Lord Haseo, I completely agree with you about Rey so we can just leave it at that. I, however, just see no need to say that everyone who found it hard to believe she could beat Ren is a moron who cannot use their brain.
The pointless hashtag was to mock the faux “activists” always screaming about the “privilege” of people they do not know. All words need to be considered in context. If the term “Mary Sue” were used like the “F” and “N” words to label all women derogatorily then I would agree with you that it is sexist. Using it to describe a character you feel was unbelievably brilliant and perfect in every way is completely different. Should the word fag be frowned upon even when referring to cigarettes? Or is N.W.A. the most racist group on earth? Of course not! It depends on context.
The Person in Question
And at the risk of repeating myself over and over, the context in this case is that it’s only applied to female characters.
It’s only derogatory if you think about it a bit.
Firstly, Lord Haseo, I completely agree with you about Rey so we can just leave it at that. I, however, just see no need to say that everyone who found it hard to believe she could beat Ren is a moron who cannot use their brain.
You’re putting words in my mouth…Please don’t do that. I’m merely stating that people don’t think about extenuating circumstances when looking at things in films (or really anything) anymore. That’s all
EDIT: It’s not an inability for these certain people to use their brains; it’s more like a stubborn refusal.
Sorry if I misrepresented you but it is how I interpreted your post. I have never considered Rey a Mary Sue, but I can understand people’s complaints about her defeating Kylo Ren being unbelievable.
The Person in Question
On a side note how Vader got redeemed was beautiful but him showing up as a Force Spirit is troublesome too. For one how did he know the ability?
I’ve always assumed it’s just somethin’ that happens to Jedis.
Who says it’s something they gotta learn before they die?
Secondly, is all of the darkness inside him gone? It would be unconvincing to me if suddenly Anakin is a completely good person with no signs of his old temperament.
Obi-Wan wasn’t the perfect example of a squeeky-clean do-gooder. He lies to and manipulates Luke.
I don’t think you have to be Jesus to be a jedi.
Nobody’s a “completely good person”.
Who says it’s something they gotta learn before they die?
Apparently George does because it’s an ability in the PT.
Obi-Wan wasn’t the perfect example of a squeeky-clean do-gooder. He lies to and manipulates Luke.
I don’t think you have to be Jesus to be a jedi.
Telling a truth “from a certain point of view” and doing what Vader did (especially the child killing) are completely different things.
Nobody’s a “completely good person”.
Even going from being a Lord of The Sith to a “normal” person would require some type of transition.
Who says it’s something they gotta learn before they die?
Apparently George does because it’s an ability in the PT.
Well, I just watched ROTJ a few weeks ago, and Anikin had no problem ditching his evil ways or becoming a ghost.
I dunno what the PT says about it, but it seems to be wrong.
Who says it’s something they gotta learn before they die?
Apparently George does because it’s an ability in the PT.
Why bring the PT into this? It’s notorious for incorrectly (or implausibly) portraying things.
Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.
I have no idea how the Mary Sue archetype can be remotely be described as sexist (it hasn’t been used to hold down generations of women if anything isolating the trope enhances female characters in Fiction) but even if it is it has nothing to do with the thread title so perhaps we should stop going on about it or open up a thread in off topic.
Who says it’s something they gotta learn before they die?
Apparently George does because it’s an ability in the PT.
Why bring the PT into this? It’s notorious for incorrectly (or implausibly) portraying things.
Because they’re canon. And even if you leave them out of it there’s still no explanation as to why Anakin turned into a Force Spirit. You’d have to assume that all Jedi are just taught that.
ray_afraid said:
Well, I just watched ROTJ a few weeks ago, and Anikin had no problem ditching his evil ways
That’s fine…I just wish they hadn’t made it seem like all of the darkness inside him dropped instantly. Maybe if Kylo Ren renounces the Dark Side (which I highly doubt) they could have him atone for his misdeeds.
Who says it’s something they gotta learn before they die?
Apparently George does because it’s an ability in the PT.
Why bring the PT into this? It’s notorious for incorrectly (or implausibly) portraying things.
Because they’re canon. And even if you leave them out of it there’s still no explanation as to why Anakin turned into a Force Spirit. You’d have to assume that all Jedi are just taught that.
They are one with the Force. There’s your perfectly good explanation. Why does it need to be taught to someone like a technique of some sort. This is religion we’re talking about. That’s what I hate the most about the PT portrayal of the Force. It’s no longer treated like a religion that a select group of Jedi (monks) follow in good faith.
That’s fine…I just wish they hadn’t made it seem like all of the darkness inside him dropped instantly. Maybe if Kylo Ren renounces the Dark Side (which I highly doubt) they could have him atone for his misdeeds.
The purpose of that whole ending was that Anakin overcame the darkness inside of him and redeemed himself. Luke could sense the good in him, and was able to bring it to surface, in spite of Vader claiming it was to late for him. Nothing that needs an answer is left unanswered.
Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.
Dek Rollins said:
They are one with the Force. There’s your perfectly good explanation.
I can live with that rationalization
The purpose of that whole ending was that Anakin overcame the darkness inside of him and redeemed himself. Luke could sense the good in him, and was able to bring it to surface, in spite of Vader claiming it was to late for him.
I mean even someone like Gary Ridgway has good inside of him but even if he did a commendable act that doesn’t mean he’s instantly going to turn into a good person. That’s how I feel Anakin was portrayed at the end of ROTJ.
It’s not that Vader killing the Emperor made all the wrong he has done okay, because he did a good deed. Throwing the Emperor down the shaft was the outward action expressing the inner change.
Army of Darkness: The Medieval Deadit | The Terminator - Color Regrade | The Wrong Trousers - Audio Preservation
SONIC RACES THROUGH THE GREEN FIELDS.
THE SUN RACES THROUGH A BLUE SKY FILLED WITH WHITE CLOUDS.
THE WAYS OF HIS HEART ARE MUCH LIKE THE SUN. SONIC RUNS AND RESTS; THE SUN RISES AND SETS.
DON’T GIVE UP ON THE SUN. DON’T MAKE THE SUN LAUGH AT YOU.
I just wish there was some indication that Vader was still somewhere inside of him. How it’s portrayed in the film is that he instantly become a good person on the inside. At least that’s how I feel.
Does anyone know what the novelization says about his inner change?