Cool, thanks :-)
How about adding this one as well, Harmy:
Dark Jedi V3: Isolated Score 2.0 Stereo @ 192kbps ex EditDroid set
As a soundtrack lover I have to say that an isolated score should be included whenever possible.
Edit: Just in case, I'm uploading it for you right now ;)
Harmy said:
@russs15: That's cool but a bit confusing to be honest. Too many options and many of them overlap (eg. the stereo and mono mix in mine is the exact same audio file as moth3r's etc.)
I tried doing the list the other way but it looked like a dogs dinner ie a total and utter mess.
Besides, apart from the Monomix and a few assumptions about the hairy_hen mixes, most of the rest do not have enough information to prove exactly either way that (for example) one 1977 Theatrical Stereo mix is the same as another 1977 Theatrical Stereo mix.
If you are saying that you used the exact Moth3r release 1977 Theatrical Stereo mix, I can log that. However, is either of those the same as used on the DJ V3 or either of the Belbucus releases?? It is hard to know...
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Yeah, I'm not criticizing your method, it's probably better this way if you want to make a comprehensive list of available GOUT synced audio tracks. I was just saying that I find it a little confusing for my own purposes.
@Laserschwert: Do you (or anyone else) know if it's the same track as the Belbucus' iso score? Or if not, which one is better? Having two different isolated scores seems like a waste of space to me, unless of course the content was different, like if one contained unused music and the other didn't, which I doubt to be the case here though.
I don't know if they are different. But there aren't enough alternate takes of the soundtrack's cues (at least not released) to re-score the entire movie just with them, so that's ruled out either way.
Harmy said:
Yeah, I'm not criticizing your method, it's probably better this way if you want to make a comprehensive list of available GOUT synced audio tracks. I was just saying that I find it a little confusing for my own purposes.
It is confusing for me too and I wrote the list in the first place!! However, it is far less confusing than trying to remember all the options as I was trying to do before.
Other than one of the isolated scores, I vote for your "hearing impaired audio descriptive" track from your last release once again as that is truly unique.
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The descriptive audio's already on the list :-)
The way I'd proceed with such a list would probably be to assign a number to each of the video sources and just add the corresponding numbers in brackets to each track on the soundtrack list.
So if DJ's V1 was number 6, Moth3r's Pwnage Edition was nuber 8 and the DeEd 1.0 was number 12 on the list of video sources, the entry for Belbucus' monomix restoration would read:
77 mono mix @ 96kbps ex Mono Mix Restoration Project (sources 6,8,12)
But as you can't be quite sure the exact same files were used for the same mixes in the different releases (I myself don't remember where exactly half of the audio tracks I'm using came from and if they've been recoded at some point) it probably wouldn't be as accurate this way.
On a related note, on your list, DJ's V3 is said to have the monomix at 128kbps as opposed to 96kbps on the other releases. Is this correct? And if so, is there any difference?
So just from a quick comparison, the Belbucus isolated score has the normal soundtrack where there's no music playing in the film, whereas the editdroid version has just silence there. Which do you guys think is preferable? Also I'd appreciate if someone with good knowledge of audio and maybe knowledge of the origins of the isolated score mixes could tell me which one is technically better. Also what about the ISOMix one? As is there a PCM version of any isolated score, for a possible use on the BD version?
Harmy said:
The descriptive audio's already on the list :-)
Oh crap!! The dyslexia is getting worse!!
You wrote Audio descriptive commentary Stereo and I assumed you meant the 1993 Definitive Collection Commentary Track. DOH!!
In that case, I vote for the recently posted Schorman13: 1993 Commentary Track (Mono) Definitive Collection from the Star Wars Laser Disc Audio Archive thread.
I have taken your comments on board and will try to work out a way to simplify my GOUT synced list concerning the known duplicates....
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I'll post further suggestions in the appropriate thread :-)
russs15 said:
In that case, I vote for the recently posted Schorman13: 1993 Commentary Track (Mono) Definitive Collection from the Star Wars Laser Disc Audio Archive thread.
That would be awesome! I'm sure a lot of people, myself included, have never heard this.
Harmy wrote: The descriptive audio's already on the list
Might want to add if the version you are using is US or UK. Can't remember off hand which was SE and which was the other way around, if it was. Answers probably in here:
I'd prefer silence for non-scored parts of the film for the isolated score track. If I wanted other sounds, I'd switch to another track. I'd vote for music only.
Hal 9000 said:
I'd prefer silence for non-scored parts of the film for the isolated score track. If I wanted other sounds, I'd switch to another track. I'd vote for music only.
I agree.
Are you using PCM or AC3 for the various stereo and mono tracks? There's probably no need for both, since the uncompressed files should work with pretty much any player out there, hardware or software. The only limitation of this would be that any level adjustment, for the sake of having the dialogue at the same volume in all tracks, would have to be done manually in an audio editing program, since it's basically just plain audio without any of the metadata bells and whistles that AC3 can carry with it, so Dialogue Normalization isn't available for PCM.
I recommend leaving the level of the 1993 mix exactly as it is, since it's the most powerful version and it would be best to have it play back at the same level as it does on the laserdisc. The 5.1 will be at this exact same level, since the 1993 mix is its primary source and it hasn't been altered in this respect. Belbucus' 1977 stereo capture is also level-matched to this as well (the file that says 'reference level'), so this leaves only the mono version in need of adjustment to come out the same. Based on a quick RMS measurement I made of it a while back, I would estimate that a reduction of about -5 db would get the dialogue of the mono mix in the vicinity of the others, but I have not yet had time to make a more thorough analysis, so this may not be an accurate value.
Anyone wanting to use the digital stereo mix should reduce it by -4 db to match the other tracks—that's how much I had to lower it to get it to fit into the 5.1 mix.
I haven't got any of the others being talked about, though, so I can't speak for them.
I don't know how to do any of that. And I don't have any of the tracks in PCM, just AC3. I'd like to get the 93mix in PCM for the BD though.
Harmy said:
So just from a quick comparison, the Belbucus isolated score has the normal soundtrack where there's no music playing in the film, whereas the editdroid version has just silence there.
This is the main difference between the two. Also, Belbucus did something to the Cantina music to make it sound more like a live performance. Full details here.
As is there a PCM version of any isolated score, for a possible use on the BD version?
I think I still have the Belbucus ISOSCORE file as a WAV file somewhere.
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Awesome. It would be really cool if you could dig it up Moth3r! Thanks!
^I'll stick it back on usenet later today (and send a PM about alternate delivery method.)
ISOMIX is 448kbps ... probably not GOUT-sync'ed
However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r
So, I was just doing a little research about the various soundtracks (as I am not very knowledgeable in this area) and was just curious about the 93 LD stereo mix.
As I understand it this was modified somewhat from the original 77 stereo mix? Is there a list or thread here detailing the differences?
*edit - reading through Hairy_Hen's 70mm 5.1 thread and found some additional info regarding the 93 mix. Should have posted my question there.
“In the future it will become even easier for old negatives to become lost and be “replaced” by new altered negatives. This would be a great loss to our society. Our cultural history must not be allowed to be rewritten.” - George Lucas
Harmy said:
I don't know how to do any of that. And I don't have any of the tracks in PCM, just AC3. I'd like to get the 93mix in PCM for the BD though.
If you need the 93' Mix in PCM, I have it.
I'll be more than happy to upload it for you. I have the original Belbucus RAR files for all three movies.
I also have the mono mix he did in lossless FLAC. These are all GOUT Synced, with minor editing required for the 93 mix, they need padding.
That would be great. Thanks :-)
I was thinking if it would be possible to have PCM (or some sort of HD audio) for all three original mixes. I will probably have DTS-HD for the 70mm 6 track but what about the other two? I'm really ignorant when it comes to audio (all you need to do to understand the depth of my unforgivable ignorance is read my answer to the last part of this post). Obviously upmixing (or whatever the audio equivalent of upscaling is) entire mixes to PCM from lossy encodes would likely be a waste of space (I guess it would be kind of like re-encoding a 2GB 720p mkv to lossless avi without any other changes and releasing it that way), so there'd either have to be some direct hi-fi (I'm not even sure if that's the right term in the context) sources of the mixes or they'd have to be reconstructed from other hi-fi/lossless sources.
I have no idea what kind of sources there are for the 77 stereo mix or what the possibilities would be on recreating it from some existing lossless elements - like how different is the '93 LD track from it.
However I contacted Puggo and he confirmed that he still has the wav files of his capture of the monomix track from 16mm film, which I suppose would be more PCM worthy than a VHS TV recording capture (though the audio qulity of Belbucus' mix is suprisingly good considering the source). It would be great if one of our audio geniuses could take Puggo's and Belbucus' lossless files and use Puggo's as the main body of the mix and do some sort of cleanup (I'm not quite sure what the exact possibilities are but most videos on film restoration I've seen also mention soundtrack cleanup, so it is possible I guess) and use Belbucus' to patch up the places where there were splices or dropouts in the 16mm track.
Like I said (many times) before, I don't know the first thing about audio editing and audio in general, so I have no idea how difficult this may be and how much of a difference it would make compared to what we already have, but it sure would be cool to be able to put all the original mixes in lossless audio on the BD.
Now that I think about it, it would be better just to include AC3 for the mkv release and let people put in uncompressed audio on their own, if they want to. Doing so is very easy, as you said, and it would reduce the file size of the upload considerably. Save lossless for the version in Bluray format.
I just realized that I didn't actually know how uncompressed audio is handled in Bluray. Looking it up, I find that it wants raw PCM, with the big-endian byte order. (The channel mapping is also different than other formats, though this only matters for surround sound, not stereo or mono.) This differs from WAV, which is little-endian, so at the smallest computing level, the information is being stored in reverse: most significant bit first, instead of least significant.
What this means is that the inclusion of PCM on a Bluray probably depends on what the authoring software will accept for input; whether the source file can be used directly or whether it has to be byte-swapped and converted to raw audio data. Something to keep in mind when the time comes.
At any rate, I'll upload all the original mixes (AC3 first, lossless later), once I've had a chance to look at the mono mix and see exactly how much level reduction is needed to match it to the other tracks. I think you've already got the 1993 version at 320 kbps that I sent you for the previous release, if I remember correctly, so that's taken care of already, and I guess something like 256 for the stereo and 128 for the mono seems reasonable. The 5.1 could be encoded at 640 kbps to maximize the quality, since it doesn't have to be restricted to 448 as it does on DVD. (In this case the DVD release would need a separate encode, but that's no problem.)
Editing to add: It occurs to me that the best way to include lossless audio might actually be to use DTS-HD MA for all of them. This is usually used for 5.1, but other channel configurations are supported as well. It would have a lower file size compared to PCM, as well as having a regular DTS encode built in to it for people without HDMI receivers. Even including both that and the AC3 version (to make sure that even people without DTS decoders can still hear the sound) would still take up less space than PCM by itself.
As I recall from watching Puggo Grande, the 16mm capture of the mono mix is really rough and scratchy sounding. Belbucus did quite extensive cleanup work on his restoration, including careful noise reduction on the rougher parts, so even though it's not up to par with what could be done from a higher quality recording, I don't think there's a better source for the mono version available to us. Plus it's already perfectly GOUT-synched . . .
hairy_hen said
At any rate, I'll upload all the original mixes (AC3 first, lossless later), once I've had a chance to look at the mono mix and see exactly how much level reduction is needed to match it to the other tracks.
And then whoever is interested in muxing for themselves should pm you for the links?
“I find your lack of faith disturbing.”
hairy_hen said:
As I recall from watching Puggo Grande, the 16mm capture of the mono mix is really rough and scratchy sounding. Belbucus did quite extensive cleanup work on his restoration, including careful noise reduction on the rougher parts, so even though it's not up to par with what could be done from a higher quality recording, I don't think there's a better source for the mono version available to us. Plus it's already perfectly GOUT-synched . . .
+1
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