Flaws, plotholes, and "could-have-been-done-betters" in the OT (alternate plot points especially welcome) — Page 2

Ryan McAvoy said:

"Flaws and "could-have-been-done-betters" in the OT" aka "The over thinking things thread"

;-)

 Well, I was kind of hoping that people would mention alternate story lines they think should have been used and stuff like that. I don't really care about hearing about the details as they have been mentioned many times and fixed in various fanedits. I'm looking for things that can't be changed, like things from "I wish Darth Vader's mask looked like the original McQuarrie artwork" to "I think Luke and Leia should have been unrelated because..." to "I think the rebel base in ESB should have been on Dagobah and Yoda should have found Luke and trained him there."*

Disclaimer: Those are all just EXAMPLES. I don't agree with any of those, so those of you who don't catch on very quick, please don't criticize them.

In a real duel, I would think sword-fighting could be quite fast. The sabre fight between Obi-Wan and Darth Anakin in Episode III was shot at normal speed. That's probably a bit faster than a normal duel, but if two people who are really good at sword-fighting go up against each other I would be surprised if they fought as slowly as in the OT.

I think lightsabers were supposed to be heavier when ANH was made.

That's a good point. I remember something in the script mentioning that the lightsabre was heavier than Luke expected when he first ignited it.

I make no secret of finding Return of the Jedi to be a massive let down.

Top ten tips for improvement coming up.

1). Yoda should die at the beginning of the film, Luke should have finished his lessons rebuilt his saber and prepared to rescue Han. Leia should have rushed in needing a rescue like he did in the previous film. The rescue plan makes no sense at all in the current film, having it an improvised rescue of a bungled rescue party introduces some structure to the act which is on the whole the best bit of the film.

2). No real need for Fett especially his stupid death scene but if he had to be in the film at least give the guy some dignity.

3). At the risk of sounding speciesist Yoda was great but having too many mangled English speaking rubber Rebels kind of took away from the present peril felt in the previous two films. "It's a trap!" would have worked just as well as a subtitle and maybe if the Rebel Command centre in the final battle had a bit more of a mix of aliens and humans it wouldn't look so cartoonish.

4) The cinematography was a bit TV movie compared to the previous two, the sets looked a bit unambitious and half finished (even the 'legacy' sets looked like they had been put back together wrong and half the lights hadn't been switched on) and some of the special effects were truly awful even back then.

5). The Ewoks are in my view a good idea but badly realised. If the primitive diminutive warrior people were genuinely fierce and capable fighters and not just cute toy opportunities. Some of the currently nonsensical moments of the film would work (like where the hell did all those traps come from if going to the backdoor bunker was a last minute decision?). If the Ewoks had been successfully been fighting and eating stormtroopers before they meet the Rebels those traps could have been there for months.

6) There should have been either some other peril in the throne room or the great big hole in the floor serve some purpose. There is a similar hole in the floor in Flash Gordon (1980) and it's there for gladiatorial reasons. If the Emperor opened the hole up to add a bit of spice to the fight between father and son and ended up being thrown down it there would be a bit more function to the thing rather than just being an inferior reminder of Cloud City's chasm. Otherwise what's it for?

7) Leia shouldn't have been the other, if ROTJ had to be the final movie of the series Anakin should have been the person Yoda was referring to.

8) Han should have been Han and Leia should have been Leia not Harrison and Carrie larking around for a quick paycheck.

9) The Falcon and maybe her crew should have been destroyed saving the galaxy from whatever technological peril that wasn't another Death Star was and maybe Piett should have too to continue the theme that not all bad guys are bad through and through. The general feeling that the Empire is a few dozen ships and two old guys really shrank the sweep of the previous two films.

10). More women, particularly more women who aren't just there because the kids that saw the first one are now old enough to notice breasts. Not giving us more about Luke's mother before the end was astonishingly bad form. Caroline Blakinson would have been much better as the devious Moff commanding the new superweapon thing instead of being a galactic Galadriel over on the Rebel ship. Have some tough girls as Jabba's guards not just dancers and hangers on. Have Fett a woman if need be.

I agree with just about everything you wrote, as well as a multitude of ideas in the ESB and ROTJ Wishlist thread. As a movie, ROTJ was great. As the end of a trilogy (and later a saga), it wasn't so great.

I've mentioned some of this stuff before, so bear with me if this sounds a bit repetitive ...

Star Wars

Made the laserfire from Imperial blasters green.

Given characters unaffiliated with the Empire or Alliance their own distinctive blasterfire colours (yellow for good guys like Han, blue for bad guys like Boba Fett).

Kept Han and Luke in their stormtrooper armour until after they got off the Death Star.

Like has been mentioned by others here, I'd have made the duel between Ben and Vader more elaborate.

The Empire Strikes Back

Made Luke's lightsaber cyan instead of azure to distinguish it from Ben's lightsaber.

Played up the whole "Han-Luke-Leia" love triangle by showing more love scenes between Luke & Leia.

Made the laserfire from the probe droid and walkers green.

Shown more AT-STs on Hoth.

Hired a beautiful young actress to play the body of Palpatine (I would have kept Clive Revill to play the voice, though).

Return of the Jedi

Replaced the Death Star II with an Eclipse-class Star Destroyer, and have it serve more as a setting rather than as a MacGuffin.

As mentioned for TESB, I would have hired a beautiful young actress to play Palpatine and brought Clive Revill back to play his voice.

Introduced the existence of other Sith Lords/Dark Jedi beyond Vader who serve the Emperor.

Placed Jabba's headquarters on a new world instead of on Tatooine.

Changed how the whole "rescue Han from Jabba" sequence goes to make it work better.

Have Han show some distrust/resentment towards Lando for what happened between them on Bespin. Lando would only regain his trust later on when he chooses to fight in the Battle of Endor.

Removed the whole "Leia is Luke's sister" bit.

Removed the whole sugar-coated "from a certain point of view" crap. Ben would admit that he lied, but that he did it in Luke's best interests.

Exchanged the Ewoks for a more intimidating race (I prefer Trandoshans, personally).

Exchanged Palpatine and Vader's "if you kill me, you'll join me" method of converting Luke to the dark side for something that makes more reasonable sense.

And, finally, either have Han die so that Leia can finally be with Luke OR have Luke choose to let Leia go so that she can be with Han. 

Yep...fibbing Kenobi should have been genuinely apologetic and humble while explaining his deception not so smug and it has to be said, weirdly corporeal for a ghost (he actually sits down on a log...why???)

DuracellEnergizer said:

The Empire Strikes Back

Hired a beautiful young actress to play the body of Palpatine (I would have kept Clive Revill to play the voice, though).

 May I ask why you think a beautiful young girl is suitable to play Palpatine?

It would make the Emperor weird, genderless, spooky and alien. Like when Aeryn Sun had that Scorpius makeup

or the female Cenobites in Hellraiser but with a mystic old guy voice.

The original ESB Emperor was really otherworldly and spooky (genuinely a Phantom menace)

I would prefer and old woman myself because it would make him look as if he is fragile and brittle when in fact he is terrifyingly powerful without any need for a sword.

I love Ian but he is a bit of a Pantomime villain.

I might have stuck with two of Brackett's ideas:

1. That Obi-Wan's claims that lightsabers are better than blasters are nonsense. It makes no sense for a sword to be a better weapon than a gun.

2. That Obi-Wan's claim that The Force has a dark side is also a bunch of nonsense. Do we really need an evil cosmic force for people to be evil?

Obi-Wan's lying and then making excuses for it instead of coming clean actually makes a lot of sense in the context of the cut "he would have told you if I had let him" Yoda line. So really the problem lies in there.

Either way that lie was a pretty big deal and honestly Luke should have been pissed.

I would've liked more hints at Vader plotting against the Emperor. He seemed a bit defanged in Jedi and I like the idea of exploring part of the motivation for his search for Luke in Empire.

There was a subplot in rough drafts of Jedi about the Death Star's commander, Jerjerrod (read it in detail here). Basically the events of Empire caused the Emperor to lose faith in Vader, and he gives Jerjerrod the task of bringing Luke to him. He and Vader butt heads when Luke is captured, and Vader finally loses it and kills him.

I think there could've been a "breather" story between Empire and Jedi, similar to Shadows of the Empire. Luke would return to Dagobah to confront Ben and Yoda about Vader's revelation. The climax of this plot would be the Jabba's Palace part of Jedi. This would leave the next installment with more time to develop Luke and Vader.

I think the Empire could've been developed a bit more. Like in the show Avatar, where the more we see the villainous Fire Nation, the more we see that there are a lot of good people - they've just spent their whole lives living in a fascist state where they've been educated that their actions are for the greater good of the world.

I'll echo the need for more women in the OT. I was kinda bummed when I saw they cut female Rebel pilots from Jedi. I liked the shot of an older A-Wing pilot because it seemed like she had some story behind her.

My only beef with the OT is that Luke/Leia should have never been siblings.  That is when Lucas let the 'I am your father' twist go to his head and thought he could outsmart the fans with some new twist every movie after that.  The Luke/Leia sibling plot point made the universe too small, and sadly 'the other' could have played a huge part in the upcoming ST.

Another plot hole is when Obiwan tells Luke his father's name in ROTJ:  Anakin Skywalker.  Really?  So when Luke was hidden from The Emperor and his father, they had him keep the same last name as his father????   That is why Darth Vader should have been called Anakin Starkiller (or something like that) just to show that Obiwan/Uncle Owen did everything in their power to hide Luke from him.   And don't get me started on the Prequels, where we now learn Anakin was also born on Tatooine, so they decide hide Luke there?  And Owen owned C3PO for 10 years yet doesn't remember him in Episode IV? 

CO said:

My only beef with the OT is that Luke/Leia should have never been siblings.  That is when Lucas let the 'I am your father' twist go to his head and thought he could outsmart the fans with some new twist every movie after that.  The Luke/Leia sibling plot point made the universe too small, and sadly 'the other' could have played a huge part in the upcoming ST.

 That was the original plan, as you may have heard, but since George decided not to make the ST he wrapped things up in ROTJ. That's why it seems shoehorned in and there wasn't enough build-up to it.

RicOlie_2 said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

The Empire Strikes Back

Hired a beautiful young actress to play the body of Palpatine (I would have kept Clive Revill to play the voice, though).

 May I ask why you think a beautiful young girl is suitable to play Palpatine?

I've grown tired of antagonists who are ugly and misshapen on the outside. IMO, true evil is only ugly on the inside -- on the outside it is beautiful and attractive; if it weren't, if it were as ugly on the outside as on the inside, no one would ever give in to it.

On the flip side, I'd also like to see some protagonists who look like the Elephant Man; stereotypically beautiful heroes are just as tiresome as sterotypically hideous villains.