logo Sign In

Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 179

Author
Time
 (Edited)

About the Dreadnought destruction:

In the moment it isn’t heroic. There’s a shot of Poe looking at Paige’s bomber falling into a fiery inferno and he does a sad face.

And then while everyone’s celebrating on the cruiser, Leia looks at the death toll and sighs.


The movie’s take on self sacrifice is: Useless self-sacrifice is bad. Paige didn’t need to die. If the battle had gone differently, she would have lived.

Holdo needed to destroy the Supremacy and only had one way to do it.

Finn’s self sacrifice wasn’t needed because it wouldn’t have changed anything.

Author
Time

snooker said:

About the Dreadnought destruction:

In the moment it isn’t heroic. There’s a shot of Poe looking at Paige’s bomber falling into a fiery inferno and he does a sad face.

And then while everyone’s celebrating on the cruiser, Leia looks at the death toll and sighs.


Stuff like that is only apparent in retrospect. In the moment, it seems like Paige’s sacrifice was tragic, but necessary to destroy the Dreadnought. Because of that, when Leia slaps Poe in the face for it, it feels jarring.

Finn’s self sacrifice wasn’t needed because it wouldn’t have changed anything.

But Finn had no way of knowing Luke was about to show up, and neither did the audience. When Finn tries to slam his skimmer into the cannon, it seems like the only way the Resistance can win. So when Rose stops his suicide run and tells him to “save the things you love,” which is what he was trying to do in the first place, it feels jarring. Unless Rose has the ability to predict the future, there’s no way what she did was heroic.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

Author
Time

snooker said:

About the Dreadnought destruction:

In the moment it isn’t heroic. There’s a shot of Poe looking at Paige’s bomber falling into a fiery inferno and he does a sad face.

And then while everyone’s celebrating on the cruiser, Leia looks at the death toll and sighs.


The movie’s take on self sacrifice is: Useless self-sacrifice is bad. Paige didn’t need to die. If the battle had gone differently, she would have lived.

Her sacrifice is only useless until it is revealed that hyperspace tracking is a thing, making their destruction of the fleet-killer retroactively heroic and vinticating Poe’s actions. Kinda muddles the message there.

Holdo needed to destroy the Supremacy and only had one way to do it.

Actually she needed to destroy all of the Star Destroyers and had a one-in-a-million chance of doing it. It’s a good thing she lucked out, because if even a single Destroyer was left operational, hindsight would have made her death a ‘useless self sacrifice’. Kidna muddles the message there.

Finn’s self sacrifice wasn’t needed because it wouldn’t have changed anything.

I mean, it might have. He had better odds than Holdo, anyway. Kinda muddles the message there.

So in the first instance heroic sacrifice is bad (wasting life and equipment on bad odds), even when it is later revealed that this sacrifice saved everyone.
In the second, heroic sacrifice is good, even when it wastes life and equipment on even worse odds.
In the third, heroic sacrifice is again bad, and I don’t even need to know the odds because they are surely better than rolling a thousand natural 20’s on a total enemy kill.

The theme of TLJ is that noble sacrifice is bad when it isn’t worth the cost. Great. It’s just too bad that the text of the film contradicts and muddles that message at every turn.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

Author
Time

It’s obvious Poe is fucking up in the moment. Leia tells him to disengage and he shuts her off. They destroy the dreadnaught but scene ends in a distinctly tragic tone with all the bombers dead. Leia slapping Poe shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone.

Author
Time

Mocata said:

DominicCobb said:

In a funny way, the fact that this is really the first time that film and digital have been seamlessly blended on a big movie is kind of full circle for the franchise after the digital innovation of the PT. We’re fully entering an era where you can shoot digital and have it look exactly like film.

Interesting but I think that certain parts (the establishing shot of Rey on the meditation cliff for example) look worse and are probably the digital ones.

Perhaps, but that isn’t an issue with the capture format, since that’s a mostly CG shot you can probably put the blame on the lighting, compositing, or the CG itself.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

NeverarGreat said:

snooker said:

About the Dreadnought destruction:

In the moment it isn’t heroic. There’s a shot of Poe looking at Paige’s bomber falling into a fiery inferno and he does a sad face.

And then while everyone’s celebrating on the cruiser, Leia looks at the death toll and sighs.


The movie’s take on self sacrifice is: Useless self-sacrifice is bad. Paige didn’t need to die. If the battle had gone differently, she would have lived.

Her sacrifice is only useless until it is revealed that hyperspace tracking is a thing, making their destruction of the fleet-killer retroactively heroic and vinticating Poe’s actions. Kinda muddles the message there.

Holdo needed to destroy the Supremacy and only had one way to do it.

Actually she needed to destroy all of the Star Destroyers and had a one-in-a-million chance of doing it. It’s a good thing she lucked out, because if even a single Destroyer was left operational, hindsight would have made her death a ‘useless self sacrifice’. Kidna muddles the message there.

Finn’s self sacrifice wasn’t needed because it wouldn’t have changed anything.

I mean, it might have. He had better odds than Holdo, anyway. Kinda muddles the message there.

So in the first instance heroic sacrifice is bad (wasting life and equipment on bad odds), even when it is later revealed that this sacrifice saved everyone.
In the second, heroic sacrifice is good, even when it wastes life and equipment on even worse odds.
In the third, heroic sacrifice is again bad, and I don’t even need to know the odds because they are surely better than rolling a thousand natural 20’s on a total enemy kill.

The theme of TLJ is that noble sacrifice is bad when it isn’t worth the cost. Great. It’s just too bad that the text of the film contradicts and muddles that message at every turn.

Thinking about it that way muddles a message, but it’s less about the mathematical yield of heroism than it is the intentions behind your actions. Poe went after the Dreadnought to deal his enemies a blow, and Finn after the cannon to prove he cared, to “not let them win.”

I actually disagree that the message is about whether sacrifice is useless or useful or what have you. It’s about why you’re doing it, who you’re doing it for, and with. Regardless of if Finn would’ve done anything, his possible death is supposed to be a bummer. He would have died alone when everyone else already decided they’d find another way or die together. Work towards a future, not an ends.

Andor: The Rogue One Arc

Author
Time

Mocata said:

But conversely…

  • Luke learns the error of his ways and becomes a true hero

What error? He was right, the Jedi should end, his explanation to Rey as to why the Jedi order failed was the truth. And he wasn’t the hero, he bought the resistance some time instead of actually stopping the first order. Rey saved the resistance in the end.

  • It’s not whether you buy from a black market but what you choose to do
  • Poe learns the error of his ways and becomes a true leader

… By leading the resistance out of a tunnel? I would say he was far more of a leader in TFA where he lead a platoon that destroyed the starkiller base. What did he do in TLJ?

  • Rey is tempted by the darkside and rejects it and becomes a true hero

Lol, that is a very low bar to be a hero.

  • Finn tries an act of stupidity and a hero saves him

Finn tries to save the resistance by striking the core of the canon. Rose prevented that, not to mention one of the lamest lines of dialogue in all of star wars.

  • Holdo is a gruff unlikeable character trope, the kind who has their heart in the right place all along

Doesn’t make her a good character. She was a bad leader, confrontational and irresponsible. She failed to disclose her plan to the second in command… And that line “if you only believe it when you can see it…” ugh. Who writes this stuff.

Personally the stakes are irrelevant, small or big, the overall movie is what matters. Which is … a mixed bag.

Stakes is what defines a hero,otherwise everyone is a hero. Which is an oxymoron.

Author
Time

NeverarGreat said:

So in the first instance heroic sacrifice is bad (wasting life and equipment on bad odds), even when it is later revealed that this sacrifice saved everyone.
In the second, heroic sacrifice is good, even when it wastes life and equipment on even worse odds.
In the third, heroic sacrifice is again bad, and I don’t even need to know the odds because they are surely better than rolling a thousand natural 20’s on a total enemy kill.

The theme of TLJ is that noble sacrifice is bad when it isn’t worth the cost. Great. It’s just too bad that the text of the film contradicts and muddles that message at every turn.

Thank you, you hit the nail on the head. I think most people would be fine with TLJ’s message regarding sacrifice if the movie played it straight the whole way through. But since every moment of sacrifice in the movie muddles and confuses the message, it seems like Rian wasn’t sure what he wanted to say.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

Author
Time
 (Edited)

NFBisms said:

NeverarGreat said:

snooker said:

About the Dreadnought destruction:

In the moment it isn’t heroic. There’s a shot of Poe looking at Paige’s bomber falling into a fiery inferno and he does a sad face.

And then while everyone’s celebrating on the cruiser, Leia looks at the death toll and sighs.


The movie’s take on self sacrifice is: Useless self-sacrifice is bad. Paige didn’t need to die. If the battle had gone differently, she would have lived.

Her sacrifice is only useless until it is revealed that hyperspace tracking is a thing, making their destruction of the fleet-killer retroactively heroic and vinticating Poe’s actions. Kinda muddles the message there.

Holdo needed to destroy the Supremacy and only had one way to do it.

Actually she needed to destroy all of the Star Destroyers and had a one-in-a-million chance of doing it. It’s a good thing she lucked out, because if even a single Destroyer was left operational, hindsight would have made her death a ‘useless self sacrifice’. Kidna muddles the message there.

Finn’s self sacrifice wasn’t needed because it wouldn’t have changed anything.

I mean, it might have. He had better odds than Holdo, anyway. Kinda muddles the message there.

So in the first instance heroic sacrifice is bad (wasting life and equipment on bad odds), even when it is later revealed that this sacrifice saved everyone.
In the second, heroic sacrifice is good, even when it wastes life and equipment on even worse odds.
In the third, heroic sacrifice is again bad, and I don’t even need to know the odds because they are surely better than rolling a thousand natural 20’s on a total enemy kill.

The theme of TLJ is that noble sacrifice is bad when it isn’t worth the cost. Great. It’s just too bad that the text of the film contradicts and muddles that message at every turn.

Thinking about it that way muddles a message, but it’s less about the mathematical yield of heroism than it is the intentions behind your actions. Poe went after the Dreadnought to deal his enemies a blow, and Finn after the cannon to prove he cared, to “not let them win.”

I actually disagree that the message is about whether sacrifice is useless or useful or what have you. It’s about why you’re doing it, who you’re doing it for, and with. Regardless of if Finn would’ve done anything, his possible death is supposed to be a bummer. He would have died alone when everyone else already decided they’d find another way or die together. Work towards a future, not an ends.

Yes it’s a bummer, but so was Holdo’s death, and that was needed to save the Resistance. What was Rose even thinking when she stopped Finn? They would crash, and provided they survive, run back to the base? And then what? They’d all die. There was no escape.

It’s a minor misstep on RJ’s part that I don’t fault him for: he wrote the scene knowing Luke would return so, of course, Rose will save Finn. I guess no one revised the script? Because if you look at it from the Resistance’s perspective Rose nearly doomed the Resistance.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

Author
Time

Glad we’re back to talking about Rose saving Finn again, it’s been awhile.

Author
Time

DominicCobb said:

Glad we’re back to talking about Rose saving Finn again, it’s been awhile.

Johnson’s Law: “As an online discussion about The Last Jedi grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Rose saving Finn approaches 1.”

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I like the movie and even I think it’s unwieldy and unclear, for the record. It is a not great scene. But it thematically tracks to me regardless of if Luke was coming or not. Rose was saving a guy she cared for in a human act of desperation. “The cause” in such a moment is so muddled by survival instinct - it didn’t matter more than saving/being with the people she loved. The idea is that that is a more pure intention than destroying an enemy, and how we care for each other is where good comes from. “How we’ll win.” Those acts can add up to true heroism, saving lives and not further taking them.

This pursuit of a fight to end all fights, the concept of a war to be won and an ending to be reached, are some of the things TLJ wants to show is an unrealistic, bad goal. Finn and Poe’s stories throughout the film are supposed to be examples of actions made towards those goals. The fact that Finn would/could have done damage and bought time is irrelevant to the message, because his sacrifice would be a selfish one. Motivated by anger and validation. That’s what the scene is about, but it just doesn’t do anything to stop people from thinking about its mathematical yields compared to other sacrifices. Which is ultimately its problem.

(altho that skimmer was fucked imo idk how you guys thought he was going to succeed)

Andor: The Rogue One Arc

Author
Time

StarkillerAG said:

I feel like we’re missing the point here. In my opinion, the biggest problem with TLJ’s themes is how some actions are portrayed as heroic at first, then unheroic later. Poe’s dreadnought attack and the bomber run are portrayed as a brave sacrifice in the moment, but just a few scenes later Leia slaps him in the face for it. Holdo is portrayed as an incompetent idiot for most of the second act, until it’s revealed that she actually had an amazing plan all along, and all that work getting the audience invested in Poe, Finn, and Rose was useless. Finn’s suicide attack is portrayed as heroic, with dramatic choir music and slo-mo, up until Rose slams into him and tells him that sacrificing himself to save the Resistance is actually a bad idea. Rian’s storytelling style is thematic whiplash and slapping the audience in the face, and I feel like that doesn’t work when you’re supposed to get the audience invested.

Umm… that wasn’t slow motion in Finn’s attempt on the big gun. That was his ship slowing down because the weapon’s beam was powering up. And I don’t think you’ve watched enough old war movies or MASH. It really isn’t heroic or a victory if you lose most of your forces. Poe wasted his valuable resources for the glory of taking out a big target. Leia humbled him because she saw the potential for a true hero and the story molds him into that. It does deconstruct heroes, but only to the extent that it shows us how not to be a hero and how to really be a hero. Finn was going to die and the gun was not going to be hurt (not enough to even slow them down). Finn refused to see it and was going to try anyway. He is echoing Poe from the opening scene and he is taught the same lesson, but for Finn it is about starting the film by running away and ending the film by championing a cause and living to fight another day. Rian borrowed from a lot of WWII movies for his hero themes and he didn’t go against them, but showed us that bravado and heroics are not the same.

Author
Time

On the subject of Poe’s assault on the dreadnought, he was actually right: if he had listened to Leia’s orders to return to the Raddus, any of the bombers trying to head back would’ve been shot down due to their slow speed and vulnerability, and if the dreadnought wasn’t destroyed, it would’ve destroyed the Resistance fleet. Poe even refers to the dreadnought as a “fleet killer”.

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.

Author
Time

My understanding was the bombers were only deployed because Poe himself deployed them. They weren’t part of the original mission and only came in when Poe audibled after succeeding with the first part (which Leia had believed was the ONLY part right up until he kept going)

I think a lot of Last Jedi arguments tend to snag up and break down along the basic right/wrong questions, when the movie is interested frequently in acknowledging the motivations behind why people are doing the things they’re doing, but not always justifying those motivations, either. That’s a huge part of the engine that fuels The Last Jedi - understanding isn’t the same as acceptance or agreement. “Poe was right” isn’t even really the point, and it’s why discussions tend to break down along the lines of people trying to prove he was “wrong” as a counter, and people reinforcing their belief that he was “right.” and round and round from there. You can be “right” and still make the wrong call, and that’s hard. But it’s also true. And learning from THOSE experiences are vital. The Last Jedi is a movie all about those moments, and a lot of what it’s saying and doing just blows right by if ultimately all you’re talking about once it’s over is whether or not the justifications for their actions are sound.

It’s partially why Rose/Finn and the speeder KEEPS coming up, because people are approaching the scene from the POV that “Finn was right to do what he did.” and the question isn’t even so much whether he had the justification, and whether he was right to make that call (and whether Rose was wrong to stop him). The question is precisely along the lines NFB very clearly laid out in their excellent posts above.

The Last Jedi is a movie that very often puts its characters in situations where they honestly believe they’re doing the right thing, and most of the time they are. Their reasoning is understandable and their intentions are good. But it still goes wrong. That’s frustrating and complicated and annoying. But it’s also NECESSARY in a lot of ways, and for me, hugely relatable. Especially when it comes to Poe and Finn’s behaviors in this movie. Often they’re just as interested in doing the big thing as they are doing the right thing, and they think a lot about how to make the big thing as right as it can be, and that’s why they miss out on doing THE BEST THING. They’re more concerned with doing THE MOST instead of figuring out what will allow them the biggest chance to do THE BEST. That’s not easy, and it doesn’t get any easier if you spend even more energy retroactively justifying why you made the one choice instead of refocusing and learning why that choice didn’t work.

The Last Jedi is a movie that ultimately says “you can do what you’ve always done and get mad when it doesn’t work like it always worked, or you can acknowledge that things keep changing and you have to change to get ahead of it.” I think it does this well, but I also understand when people get caught up in the minutia of why things aren’t working the way they always worked.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Still, the dreadnought would’ve destroyed the Resistance fleet if Poe listened to Leia’s orders. I mean, Leia basically believes that fleeing from the First Order is far more important than destroying an extremely powerful ship that just blew up the nearly-empty Resistance base to the point where the explosion is visible from space.

It basically makes Leia look like an idiot, at the very least here.

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

How does it make Leia look like an idiot? Why WOULDN’T you want to run as fast as you could from the thing that your captain just called “a Fleet Killer”

Nobody knows about hyperspace tracking, so him getting back to the ship ASAP while they jump makes perfect sense to her. It makes perfect sense, period, especially considering how little they know about what the First Order can do at that moment. If they can get away, they should get away, because they’re not really in a great position to take it out right there. As proved by how sideways everything goes even WITH Poe’s plan (which he had ready to go without her knowledge, which is some pre-meditated insubordination, really).

She’s not wrong to want to run. He’s not wrong to want to seize the opportunity. They can both be right, but it’s not always about being right, either. Life isn’t a point-scoring exercise, and The Last Jedi is a story that speaks to that quite a lot.

Leia doesn’t “look like an idiot” there, though.

Author
Time

Lightspeed tracking is “impossible.” There’s no reason to think they should account for it. And look how close Poe’s plan came to failing. If Paige wasn’t able to press that button in time, the whole Resistance would have been wiped out right then and there.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

+1

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.

Author
Time

FreezingTNT2 said:

DominicCobb said:

Lightspeed tracking is “impossible.” There’s no reason to think they should account for it. And look how close Poe’s plan came to failing. If Paige wasn’t able to press that button in time, the whole Resistance would have been wiped out right then and there.

+1

Have you changed your mind? Or are you missing how my post is directly refuting yours?

Author
Time

I thought you were refuting Broom Boy’s argument.

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

No Broom Kid is 100% right.

JEDIT: Sorry, he’s mostly right, but Poe is a commander at the time, not a captain.

Author
Time

I 100% agree with Broom Kid’s excellent post above. The Last Jedi is at its core a movie about improvisation. It’s about preparing for the future and making the best choice at the right moment, and that type of message is very hard to nail thematically. I feel like that’s the reason many people, including me, were put off by the movie. It wants to convey a complicated message in the run time of an average blockbuster, and it results in some plot points and character arcs feeling unearned.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

Author
Time

Regardless of your opinions on it, I definitely think now that the trilogy is over I feel like The Last Jedi will be seen as the most important movie in the trilogy. Maybe not now or in a year from now, but as time goes on I think people will appreciate that this movie had a lot more to say than either TFA or TROS. To me it felt like JJ wanted to honor Star Wars in a very superficial way with his films, whereas Rian showed his love for Star Wars by challenging AND reaffirming its central themes. I’m not going to argue about its execution, but this thread and the interesting conversations we have here prove to me that there is a lot more depth with this film in comparison to 7 or 9 worth discussing.

Author
Time

That’s about how I feel RogueLeader, and still I wonder how the audience would have felt if TLJ was the first of a more tonally cohesive sequel trilogy, I know I would have forgiven (even welcomed!) more of the execution if I knew it was just the beginning and not the penultimate episode.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV