Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 12

I should probably have phrased that better. My point was just that they tend to treat the canon almost as they would history. Many fans (not referring to anyone on particular) tend to insist that SW follow a degree of continuity that would makes sense had it been real, but which would only be convoluted in a fictional narrative.
E.g. the whole Snoke is Plageuis thing. Sure it could make sense lore-wise, but it would be a poor narrative choice, not to mention very confusing to casual viewers.

EDIT:
Fixed it;

ZkinandBonez said:

I just find these speculations so fascinating. A lot if fans really do seem to forget that these are movies, and behave as if they were real historical events. I understand the need for lore continuity, but they seem to overlook how convoluted these plots would be if the writers had followed their logic.

MalàStrana said:

(was just joking…)

I know, but I still phrased it in a dumb way though.

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

I should probably have phrased that better. My point was just that they tend to treat the canon almost as they would history. Many fans (not referring to anyone on particular) tend to insist that SW follow a degree of continuity that would makes sense had it been real, but which would only be convoluted in a fictional narrative.
E.g. the whole Snoke is Plageuis thing would be a poor narrative choice

I respectfully disagree. Having the plan of who we regard as the greatest Sith Lord in galactic history to be part of a much larger scheme would give the entire Saga more gravitas. Not only that Plagueis’ midichlorian manipulation (they could call manipulation of the Living Force if they wanted to distance themselves from the PT) could make Plagueis/Snoke the most malignant villain we’ve seen in the Saga.

It’s better than having him be some random guy who just waited for Palpatine to fall in order to rise to power. Would make him look like a bitch. Now if Snoke is some other pres established character I wouldn’t mind that all too much.

Ireally don’t see how making Snoke the ultimate bad-guy in the SW galaxy would be a good narrative choice. That really would undermine the OT in my opinion. Also I don’t see how him waiting for Palpatine’s demise is a cowardly move, I’d call it tactical and patient. Of course he could well end up like that, but depending on how Johnson writes the character, it could potentially be really interesting.
Also when I said that it was a poor narrative choice, I didn’t mean in relation to the lore (heck that was the one thing I was complaining about). I was thinking more in terms of character development. And even Palpatine back in the OT wasn’t really that important, other than his relation to the Luke/Vader conflict. I do think a new threat, with it’s own new backstory would work better than to bring back some name that was given in passing four movies ago. Snoke really only needs to make the character development of Kylo and Rey more interesting. So, sure, him being Plageuis could work if it was made secondary, I just don’t see the point or plausibility of it.

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

not to mention very confusing to casual viewers.

Most casual viewers should know Plagueis from Palpatine’s teaching in ROTS.

I honestly don’t believe that. Many fans would obviously, but remember that not everyone who watch the SW movies are “fans”. Most people I know would not have had a clue who Plageuis is if it suddenly appeared in the next film(s). Disney’s trying to appeal to more than just the fans here, and Idoubt that Rian Johnson, Abrams, Kasdan, etc. really have any interest in bringing back PT character when they can make their own.

ZkinandBonez said:

That’s why I like this forum, people here treat them as works of fiction.

You sure? I’m not convinced.

Dek Rollins said:

ZkinandBonez said:

That’s why I like this forum, people here treat them as works of fiction.

You sure? I’m not convinced.

Well conversations here tend to be related to the making of the films, the quality of them as films, etc, and not too much about the canon or the EU.

Also I wasn’t trying to make some grand claim or anything. Just my general impression.

I don’t think Johnson, Kasdan, Abrams and co. even remember or care about a character who only exists because of a single mention in the PT.

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:
That really would undermine the OT in my opinion.

I don’t care. The OT will always be the OT; future films are going to up the anti in some departments so it seems like an excuse to not do grandiose things regardless of how good they are just because the OT was pretty simplistic in nature. If you can do more/better then why shouldn’t you? Should Stephen Curry not try to become the greatest offensive Basketball player of all time because it would “undermine” Kobe or Jordan? Of course not.

Also I don’t see how him waiting for Palpatine’s demise is a cowardly move, I’d call it tactical and patient.

He didn’t need to wage war with The Empire. He could have just killed Palpatine and assumed control over The Empire. He was at least an expert in the Dark Side at the time so I couldn’t see why he would take the easy way out. If Snoke were Plagueis you’d understand why he’s be more tactful after Palpatine’s assassination attempt.

I do think a new threat with it’s own new backstory would work better than to bring back some name that was given in passing four movies ago

Plagueis pretty much is a new threat. And if Snoke is Plagueis obviously his philosophies have evolved seeing as how he would have abandoned the Rule of Two so his end game could be completely different from what it was when Palpatine attempted to kill him. Furthermore, Snoke being a new character could backfire in so many ways if his back story isn’t written right. It’s the safer and better option (for the Saga at large) to just make him Plagueis.

The only thing I genuinely disagree with here is calling Plageuis the “safer option.”
Many OT fans would be pissed, and as I said earlier, I think you overestimate just how many people would recognize the name. Of course as has been previously suggested, he could be Plageuis, or a Plageuis-type character, without it necessarily emphasizing the ROTS connection. I just don’t see it happening.

(Also, from a EU perspective, wouldn’t it be kind of weird if Plageuis was the one who abandoned the whole Sith-thing and replaced it with the Knights of Ren, while Palpatine/Sidious stuck to the “Darth”'s and the rule of two, etc. considering how he was the rebellious one? It’s been a long time since I read any PT EU, but didn’t Palpatine have Vader kill Sith the same way he did Jedi? He didn’t seem like the kind of guy who was willing to share his power with other sith. He really did seem more like a Dark Jedi with his own ways and agenda.)

suspiciouscoffee said:

I don’t think Johnson, Kasdan, Abrams and co. even remember or care about a character who only exists because of a single mention in the PT.

Exactly.

Lord Haseo said:

There are those who even say the “No, I am your father” twist wasn’t there since the genesis of Star Wars.

It wasn’t. Who thinks that it was?

EDIT: Also, they’re not going to make him Plagueis, there would be no purpose in that. The arguments have already been made.

Maybe some day there will be a comic or a novel that explains all of Snoke’s backstory, but I honestly don’t think they’ll even go into his past all that much in the movies. Perhaps he’ll be confirmed Plagueis in said DisnEU material, but I just don’t see it happening in the movies, even if only for the reason that no casual viewer would know or care who Plagueis is.

Lord Haseo said:

Dek Rollins said:

Lord Haseo said:

There are those who even say the “No, I am your father” twist wasn’t there since the genesis of Star Wars.

It wasn’t. Who thinks that it was?

A few really devoted Lucas fans. They even claim that he intended on there to be 9 films. Some say he intended for 12 films to be made.

The “12 films” argument has some truth, as one of the (many) ideas Lucas had in the early success of Star Wars was to follow it with 11 sequels, but obviously that idea didn’t go very far. Honestly, Lucas had so many ideas for Star Wars that never happened, so, it’s difficult to say what was and wasn’t really there when it comes to little ideas that didn’t get out much.

In the original making of ESB book, Lucas was on record as there being nine films, and having written treatments on all of them. The number always depends on when he’s asked.

I’d be surprised if he hasn’t retconned or ignored anything said during production on ROTS about the saga being finished.

A lot of different ideas thrown back and forth in this video, but many of them are quite interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgKumd7TRN0

The idea that Snoke was once a Jedi that survived the purge makes a lot more sense to me than him being some ancient Sith, or just some random guy who trained himself.

Him having received his scars during the purge (or order 66) then having hidden in the unknown regions, where he would then have encountered the remnants of the Empire could be an interesting backstory, which also has the benefit of not being to hard to explain to the more casual viewer. This would also explain why he doesn’t affiliate himself with the Sith and has instead made is own Dark Jedi order.