Spartacus01 said:
Caston, I was not trying to say that George is infallible and never made mistakes. I’m well aware of the fact that sometimes he lied and made bad decisions. In fact, I agree with what you said about George lying about the EU and mistreating the EU authors and the EU fans. I also agree with you about the fact that he lied when he said that Star Wars was always supposed to be about Anakin. All I was trying to say is that I vastly prefer George over Disney, and that it’s not George’s fault if Star Wars is bad today.
Thanks, I’m not trying to argue with you. I’m merely pointing you to some threads that have more information, though was a little baffled why you ignored much of Minch’s post, and maybe give a you a little insight into my understanding too.
And that Minch was highlighting issues with modern Star Wars at the hands of of Kennedy and Filoni, and was not so much referring to George, for being at fault on that.
(Unless Minch meant George can be blamed for choosing Kennedy to be his successor, and Dave Filoni as his writing “apprentice”?)
George erasing the contribution of Marcia Lucas and others in Star Wars?
I don’t remember George ever denying that Marcia had a great role in the development of the Original Trilogy. I think that all he wanted to erase was the notion that the Original Trilogy was good despite of him, and not because of him. Especially because there are some people (I’m not talking about you specifically) that seem to think that the Original Trilogy was good exclusively because of Marcia. I think that George’s intent was not trying to erase the contributions of Marcia and others to the Original Trilogy, but simply making it clear that he always was the head of the editing process, and that if the Original Trilogy ended up like we know it today was ultimately because of him, since he always had to approve everything before it was done.
That is more a “fan thing” or “fan view” which came about much later, long after Marcia’s contributions were already erased or downplayed. If it wasn’t for The Secret History of Star Wars, Charles Lippincott, and Gary Kurtz, it is likely Marcia’s contributions may have stayed erased or downplayed a lot longer. Although many of us are aware of the some of the sheer hate and vitriol that appears whenever her name is merely mentioned, in some quarters.
Have you seen the recent “Icons Unearthed” documentary? Marcia herself is on record as saying George had erased her from history. There is also some insight into her doing more editing work on the OT films than some previously thought, especially for ROTJ.
I did link to the threads that demonstrate this in my previous post. Also about Lippincott’s role, and also Gary Kurtz being erased/downplayed too in official Lucasfilm history, among others. Others have already highlighted this far better than I can.
I haven’t heard of claims that “the OT good exclusively because of Marcia”, that is used as some sort of justification for that vitriol? (I’m a little lost as to why your brought that up otherwise?). I think we all agree that anyone who worked and contributed to the films should have their efforts highlighted, and not downplayed or erased by George or Lucasfilm. Nor face vitriol from fans, out of some misguided or misplaced loyalty to George, for simply doing that work. Unfortunately, it seems to be a common theme for some Prequel fans or George zealots, as shown in that OT Index thread I linked to.
George creating the Special Edition and then attempting to erase the unaltered cuts of the OT?
George attempting to erase the original cuts of the Original Trilogy? Sure, that’s something I don’t like either, and I obviously criticize George for that. But creating Special Editions was a legit decision, especially because there were some things that absolutely needed to be changed (for example, Palpatine’s appearance in Empire Strikes Back). The fact that George added changes to the original movies is not bad per se. What’s bad is the fact that he always changed his mind all the time, was not able to agree with himself about the definitive changes he wanted to introduce to the movies, and tried to erase the original versions. But other than that, I don’t think that creating Special Editions was a bad idea in itself, as well as declaring the Special Editions as the Canon version of the movies.
Well, no, the Special Editions weren’t a “legit decision” as soon as they went past fixing errors, matte lines and technical issues. Although I didn’t specify, and I should have made it clearer, I was pointing to threads which highlight that George changed the vision of the other directors and creatives who worked on Empire and Jedi.
That George is on record as saying "A director should be able to change his films - but nobody else”.
And as demonstrated in those linked threads, and the recent discussion posted above, that George had already made changes to Kersh’s Empire and Marquand’s Jedi when he said the above. And George has made even more alterations since then, in that original conversation about film preservation.
Obviously both directors’ original work are still not available to watch on a modern home media format, because of those Special Editions and George’s "vision"™. As well as George’s refusal to release the original theatrical cuts or simply release all the various different cuts that many fans have grown up with, and been available to them at one time or another.
For some reason you appear to have completely skipped over or ignored Minch’s above points?
It’s not that I skipped those points, it’s just that I was not arguing against the idea that George made bad decisions and sometimes lied, so I didn’t need to talk about that. My point was completely different.
Fair enough. I was a little baffled why you seemed to think “but to blame him for the total mess that Star Wars has become today is exaggerated”, when Minch wasn’t really referring to that. He’d clearly stated that was at the door of Kathleen Kennedy and Dave Filoni, in the modern Disney-owned era.
He accused some fans of making up claims the films had racist stereotypes in TPM because they simply didn’t like Jar Jar? Or something along those lines? I’d have to look it up to be sure, so I could be likely wrong on that.
George is on record saying he wants his things his own way and doesn’t really care what the fans think. Something about throwing rocks at him, so he will do it his way or something? There are interviews and articles that appear in threads on here where George is being a prick to fans with his choices, decisions and reasoning. He seems to have got more prickly, to appearing to have had some sort of character change around the time of the SE’s and PT. Those OT Index and TCvsSE Index threads on here have a lot of the articles, quotes and interviews, if you’re interested.
What does this have to do with what I said before? I simply said that George has never accused the fans who didn’t like the Prequel Trilogy of being the reason of why he decided to sell Star Wars, and what you just said does not disprove my thesis. I’m not saying that George didn’t criticize the fans that didn’t like the Prequels, I’m simply saying that he didn’t say that they were the reason of why he decided to sell Star Wars. That’s it.
Your post did not come off as reading like that: “Also, George has never blamed the fans who don’t like the Prequel Trilogy for anything.” is why I replied to that line. Again just giving you more information you may not have been aware of.
Disney calls anyone who doesn’t appreciate the Sequel Trilogy a “fake fan”, a “racist”, or a “sexist”? You’re obviously being hyperbolic with that claim. They’ve called out the racism, sexism, and some disingenuous fan views? (for money or subscribers?) for when they saw it that at the time. Good for them.
I know that some Disney employees accused everyone who doesn’t like the Sequel Trilogy and Rey’s character to be a sexist. I have seen some screenshots along those lines with some Disney-owned Lucasfilm employees talking that way in regards to the fans. Not to mention, Pablo Hidalgo often bullied and mocked EU fans in the past years, especially on Twitter. All I was trying to say is that this kind of stuff didn’t happen when Lucasfilm was still in control of George. Because let’s be honest guys, George’s harshest criticism of the fans who didn’t like the Prequel Trilogy was that they didn’t understand the movies. That’s all. But he never openly mocked them, and never denied the fact that they were true fans with the right to enjoy what they want.
“some Disney employees accused everyone who didn’t like the Sequel Trilogy is sexist?”
Do you have these screenshots? I see this come up time and time again online, but nobody posts the actual proof.
Hang on, “Disney” or “Disney employees”? Or “Disney owned Lucafilm employees”? This seems to be shifting as at first you said Disney (as in the company). But it will still be interesting to see this proof or screenshots that everyone who doesn’t like their ST films are “fake fans”, “racist”, or “sexist”, either way.
I still think you’re being hyperbolic with that claim, but am more than happy to be proved wrong.
If you want to see George’s “intellectually honesty” give Minch’s post another read, then that “GL Unreliable Narrator and Time Travelling Revisionist” thread and the OT Index a read, also. He may be more honest than Disney? But still, a low bar.
Yeah… No. What you said here has no relevance to my point, because I was not talking about George’s intellectual honesty in general, I was simply talking about his intellectual honesty in regards to the fans who didn’t like the Prequels.
It does have relevance. I said it appears George accused some fans of making up claims TPM had racist stereotypes in them because they simply didn’t like Jar Jar? So there you have it: George’s “intellectual honesty in regards to fans who didn’t like the Prequels”.
For good measure I also threw in links to more information where George’s intellectual honesty in general could be questioned too. Although I did say George may be more honest than Disney (in comparison). “But still, a low bar”. Which is something I think we can both agree on.
I don’t want to derail Minch’s thread further, or sidetrack from what he meant (although I don’t fully understand a couple of his points in his OP myself). If you’d like to continue please send me a PM, and I’d be happy to talk more.
My god, I’ve rattled on. Sorry about that, Minch.
