LUKE
Not unless you can alter time… speed up the harvest… or teleport me off this rock
Is going to sleep for a long time, time travel in science fiction (or fantasy) context?
Are Sleeping Beauty and Aliens time travel stories?
Strictly speaking it is I suppose in that we are all traveling into the future at one second per second.
Please correct me if if I'm wrong (I haven't actually read the material) but the premise as described is about a character who hibernates between time periods not someone who can nip back and forth through time in the manner described by H. G. Wells.
The first use of time travel in the EU was actually in this delightfully-bizarre story by Alan Moore.
TheBoost said:
haljordan28 said:
the only pieces outside of the OT films I have enjoyed are Rebel Mission to ord mantel
Which one? I think there are three.
I didn'tknow there were three of them. I only have listened to the first one. Where han goes up against a bounty hunter called CIFER.
I think this says it all.
VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader
^ The Kings of baffling retcons in Star Wars. Often it is simply unnecessary alterations or re-writes of other creatives’ work in the GFFA.
I recently found the following on Lucas and Filoni’s 2008’s The Clone Wars animated series; the retcons and discrepancies it has with the EU, or previous onscreen Star Wars content, so thought it could be of interest to some people on here?
More so now that Dave Filoni appears to be re-doing Heir To The Empire for a New Republic setting, and has form for making strange or unnecessary alterations to other creatives’ previous work on Star Wars, or making straight-up retcons to them:
Before the Disney era, what did the 2008 Clone Wars series retcon in the EU? - on the Star Wars EU reddit
In the above reddit thread there are two additional links to lists of 2008’s The Clone Wars retcons & discrepancies with the EU:
Why doesn’t The Clone Wars fit into the Star Wars Legends continuity? - on The Archivists quora, with interesting conclusions
The 2008 Clone Wars Retcons in chronological order - on a 5 page google document
This 2021 article from ScreenRant highlights the many contradictions TCW created to the pre-established lore and continuity:
Why The Clone Wars Doesn’t Fit Into The Star Wars Legends Continuity
A 2024 article from ScreenRant giving an informative overview and highlights George Lucas’ relationship with the EU:
“The thing about Star Wars is that there’s one universe" - Leland Chee in 2008 (Keeper of the Holocron / continuity administrator)
These long-form video essays by the Sheev Talks YouTube channel were also explanatory and insightful:
Star Wars: The Clone Wars Does Not Hold Up (Part 1) - 2 hours
Star Wars: The Clone Wars Still Doesn’t Hold Up (Part 2) - 2 hours 50 minutes
I then thought about some of the other retcons and alterations that Dave Filoni has made in his Star Wars projects to other creatives’ previous work in the GFFA… and I ended up going down a bit of a rabbit hole on this! I’ve edited in more articles and information below on just some of his retcons to… the EU, in both Legends and Canon, the Prequel Trilogy, 2003 Clone Wars, Rebels, The Bad Batch, The Mandalorian, Book of Boba Fett, Tales of the Jedi, and also for the Ahsoka series.
The retconning, or ripping up, of Karen Traviss’ previously established work in the EU for Mandalore and Mandalorians (also on clone soldiers), for George & Filoni’s 2008 The Clone Wars animated film and tv series. So much so that Traviss felt she was unable to continue with the series of stories she was telling, mainly for the Republic Commando multi media project, and quit writing for Star Wars:
End of one era, start of another… - Karen Traviss announcement on her blog, in August 2009:
“I can’t discuss the canon issues because of the standard non-disclosure agreement that all writers sign. I’m not even going to discuss the ones that are public now, and I know little of the full detail anyway. So please don’t ask me. All I can say is that I was given enough of the detail in January to realise that changes in continuity were such that I wouldn’t be able to carry on as originally planned with the storylines you were expecting to see continued in my books. It would have required a lot more than routine retcon.”
Why have you stopped writing Star Wars? - at Karen Traviss’ blog, from August to December 2009.
Exclusive Interview with Karen Traviss, The Clone Gal - at Boba Fett fan club, in 2006
The Mandalorian Question - Good, Bad, or Ugly? - at United Federation of Charles, in 2012
How Mandalorian Lore Evolved Over 40 Years of Star Wars Storytelling - at Culture Slate
The many needless retcons & alterations made in Lucas & Filoni’s 2008’s The Clone Wars series and film, contradicting Genndy Tartakovsky’s established and popular 2003 series. Genndy’s 2003 series was originally canon, part of the official 2002-2007 Clone Wars multimedia project, until the decision was made to do the 2008 animated theatrical film and tv series on the back of that popularity, and the original 2003 series was then de-canoned:
A Tale of Two Clone Wars: The Ravaging of EU Canon - at Escapist Magazine
How Star Wars: The Clone Wars Retconned the 2000s Clone Wars Series - at Den Of Geek
Why 2008’s The Clone Wars Doesn’t Fit Into The Star Wars Legends Continuity - at ScreenRant
10 Things From The 2003 Star Wars: Clone Wars Series That Should Be Canon Again - at CBR
The Mandalorian Season 2 Finale Retcons a Major Star Wars Rebels Plot Thread - at MovieWeb
Star Wars Rebels Finale Reveals that Captain Rex Was in Return of the Jedi - at Den Of Geek
The problem with Dave Filoni - at Sheev Talks (a 25 minute YouTube video from a fan of Star Wars lore, in 2022). We may not agree with all the claims and conclusions in this video, yet a number of retcons made by Filoni in Rebels are featured and clearly explained.
Why does Thrawn feel inconsistent between the Books and Star Wars Rebels? - at Star Wars Explained (8 minute video, in 2021)
Star Wars Retcon Addressed By Lucasfilm Exec Following The Bad Batch Premiere - at The Direct
Here Are All Of The Retcons In ‘The Bad Batch’ - at CultureSlate (2022)
All Star Wars Retcons In The Bad Batch - at ScreenRant (2021)
Changes to previously established facts in previous Star Wars content by The Bad Batch series - at Wookieepedia
Welp. They brought Ventress back (she died in the 2015 canon book “Dark Disciple”) - at Sheev Talks (13 minute video, in 2024)
Star Wars Just Retconned Ahsoka’s Backstory In Tales of the Jedi - at The Direct
Ahsoka’s Backstory Suffers Retcon in Tales of the Jedi, Leaving Fans Pissed Off - at State Facts
Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi erases significant queer character from Ahsoka novel - at Gayming Mag
‘Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi’ Has Been Criticized For Erasing LGBT Character - at CultureSlate
The Mandalorian Timeline Changes Retconned Again By Lucasfilm - at ScreenRant
‘The Mandalorian’ fans sceptical about timeline retcon: “It’s a total mess” - at NME (from BoBF to start of Mando S3)
How The Mandalorian retconned Cobb Vanth & Freetown - at Edge of the Galaxy
How Mandalorians Killed The Star Wars Expanded Universe - at ScreenRant
Star Wars Just Retconned a Major Yoda Scene In Boba Fett Episode 6 - at The Direct
Boba Fett just retconned one of Anakin Skywalker’s greatest sins - at Inverse
The Mandalorian’s Timeline Retcon Is Impossible To Fix - at ScreenRant (re events in Mandalorian & BoBF crossover)
‘The Book of Boba Fett’s Big Problem: Boba Fett Sucks - at Decider (re change in character of Boba himself)
Every Way The Clone Wars Retcons The Star Wars Prequels - at ScreenRant
The Clone Wars Retcons How Ahsoka Survives Order 66 - at We Got This Covered
The Clone Wars Finale Rewrites Key Parts of Star Wars Canon - at CBR
Changes to previously established facts in previous Star Wars content by 2008’s Clone Wars series - at Wookieepedia
The Latest Filoni Retcon? Why Heir to the Empire Should Stay a Book Title - at Strangely Awesome Games
A history of retcons involving the Darksaber - at Dork Side of the Force (a 2021 article)
Why some people are done with Dave Filoni - at Eck Clips (a 2 minute video, in 2022). More unnecessary retcons made to canon.
How Dave Filoni is Inadvertently destroying the Timeline of the Star Wars Galaxy - at Geetsly’s (a 10 minute video, in 2022). Some of the retcons by Filoni to pre-existing Legends and Canon material. A little hyperbolic in parts, yet overall is also informative.
Dave Filoni needs to stop rewriting Star Wars canon - at AIPT Comics
Star Wars Canon Is Already Meaningless, And That’s A Good Thing - at Looper
Dave Filoni Is Reluctant to Let Other People Work with His Star Wars Characters - at Bleeding Cool
(beware spoilers for episodes 1 to 5. I’ll sort through these links after the Ahsoka series has ended):
3 Ways Ahsoka Is Retconning Star Wars Rebels’ Ending - at ScreenRant (from the official trailer for Ahsoka!)
9 Ways Ahsoka Retconned Star Wars Rebels’ Epilogue (Eps 1 & 2) - at ScreenRant (although some barely pass as retcons: YMMV)
Ahsoka end scene confirmed as Rebels remake (Ep 2) - at The Direct (Lucasfilm quotes on the Rebels epilogue being retconned)
Ahsoka’s White Costume Explained: History, Meaning & Retcon - at ScreenRant (Rebels finale is retconned for the Ahsoka series)
Ahsoka’s new canonically innate Force Psychometry ability - at Looper (Ahsoka retconned to now have the power of ‘Force Echo’)
Will Ahsoka Retcon the Star Wars Movies? - at CBR (article from 2022; re possibility of The WBW, time travel, and ‘reset buttons’)
^ More sources for the Ahsoka series will be added as the program progresses and if/when retcons or alterations take place.
I genuinely hope Filoni’s New Republic film and Mandoverse finale will be a success, somewhere nearing Andor’s outstanding levels of quality across the board. Although I also hope Filoni doesn’t make any more unnecessary alterations or retcons in it, or to previous Star Wars content and history, if he is indeed re-doing or revamping “Heir To The Empire” for this latest project.
As oojason and Emre both allude to in their comprehensive ‘contradictions, inconsistencies & continuity issues’ threads, in the…
‘Original Trilogy vs later Star Wars: plot holes, inconsistencies, contradictions, disconnects, mental gymnastics, + stretches etc’
…section of the ‘An Index for General Star Wars Discussion’:
Obviously, every fan has different outlooks, takes, and levels of interest depending upon each of the retcons, continuity issues, discrepancies and inconsistencies etc. For some fans, it may be a big thing, highly annoying, perplexing, or a concerning ongoing trend. For other fans, not so much, or barely registering. Maybe enjoying the different “point of view”, or alternative new take. Or even somewhere in between. YMMV.
I am a fan of Dave Filoni and his work overall. Some of the better stories in the GFFA, post-Prequel Trilogy, have been created and penned by him. Yet that doesn’t mean he has the right to effectively erase, contradict, or re-write other creators’ previous work in Star Wars. Something that Filoni has a penchant for, for a long time. All without crediting the original creators.
Most are retcons that were quite needless, superfluous, and yet also flagrant, to the point of questioning whether he is making these numerous redundant alterations or continuity issues deliberately, for some reason?
The whole “The Legendary Star Wars Expanded Universe Turns a New Page” Legends/Canon idea back in 2014, was meant to keep the all the stories more consistent and interconnected in the Galaxy Far, Far Away, sitting along side with their film and television content. Yet Filoni has re-written and retconned over some of that new canon material for his projects, most of which were unnecessary to the actual stories being told.
Lucasfilm’s aim in 2014 at implementing “internal consistency” for their content, “interconnected storytelling”, “coordinating creative development”, and being a “creatively aligned program of Star Wars storytelling”; all of which appear in the linked announcement above, seems to have been either lost, ignored, or simply voided, some time ago.
Or from the 2014 Star Wars Expanded Universe: Past, Present, & Future official “Legends/Canon” announcement video:-
“We now have a story department that so that there truly can be one consistent narrative - and that’s always been the dream. I think the idea of aligning the content is really fantastic and exciting opportunity that no other fictional universe could even support. We’re going to be able to bring fans a unified vision in a way that we’ve never done before. And I think it’s a also sacred trust to be invited to be telling stories inside this universe because it’s so precious to people, and I understand because it’s precious to me.” - Lucasfilm VIPs.
The above 2014 video from the official Star Wars YouTube channel also includes this quote from Dave Filoni:-
“It feels real when everything is in line. And I think that is the challenge for all of us going forward with Star Wars. How are we responsible with what was? And how do we still move forward even if things become very different? I think the EU will be a legacy that is mined forever.”
Anyway, if Dave Filoni is going to continue to mine both the EU + post 2014 Canon, and then rewrite, alter, or retcon that previous material then the least he could do is start to credit the work of others he is using in his own stories. How should I put this politely?: that he is lifting from, riffing on, or paying homage to. Less politely politely?: copying from others’ work, plagiarising from, or repurposing past history and events to pass off as ‘his own’? And in doing so, pissing off many people who grew up with, and have fond memories of, some of this prior much loved content.
Start to credit the original creatives, list the original work; their books, novels, comics, games, sourcebooks, soundtracks, fanon etc. Credit them at the end of every episode in which their work is featured. Or list them up on the official site in the episode guides, so fans can easily find those original works at their leisure, and the original creatives can also be properly credited.
Maybe people will take an interest in those previous original works, go out, and purchase them. Wins and respect all around.
I am not sure what the forum policy is for bumping older threads. After searching through the Index thread for a relevant thread, this seemed the best one to post in. Sorry if this is wrong or I’ve overlooked some site rules or etiquette on here.
Edit: Sorry. I was looking in the wrong Index, and didn’t see there was a ‘Canon’ section in General Star Wars Discussion.
I think this says it all.
But I do now wonder what the broken image actually was that captainsolo posted about “I think this says it all”!
“In the future it will become even easier for old negatives to become lost and be “replaced” by new altered negatives. This would be a great loss to our society. Our cultural history must not be allowed to be rewritten.” - George Lucas
The Hatted One learned the Flannelled One’s lessons well.
“The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order and in the assertion that, without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that anarchy can be instituted by a violent revolution… There can be only one permanent revolution — a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man. How is this revolution to take place? Nobody knows how it will take place in humanity, but every man feels it clearly in himself. And yet in our world everybody thinks of changing humanity, and nobody thinks of changing himself.”
― Leo Tolstoy
The issue is Ahsoka. I like her, but Vader’s line, “when I left you I was a learner, now I am the Master,” indicates Vader was never a Jedi Master as Anakin.
“There is a tremor in the Force.”
“Give yourself to the dark side.” -Lord Vader
The issue is Ahsoka. I like her, but Vader’s line, “when I left you I was a learner, now I am the Master,” indicates Vader was never a Jedi Master as Anakin.
Or a full knight for that matter. Just another bit of OT continuity Lucas either forgot or ignored when writing the prequels.
“The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order and in the assertion that, without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that anarchy can be instituted by a violent revolution… There can be only one permanent revolution — a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man. How is this revolution to take place? Nobody knows how it will take place in humanity, but every man feels it clearly in himself. And yet in our world everybody thinks of changing humanity, and nobody thinks of changing himself.”
― Leo Tolstoy
The issue is Ahsoka. I like her, but Vader’s line, “when I left you I was a learner, now I am the Master,” indicates Vader was never a Jedi Master as Anakin.
Or a full knight for that matter. Just another bit of OT continuity Lucas either forgot or ignored when writing the prequels.
Indeed, a good place to have had Anakin fall was The Tuskan Slaughter in AOTC. For then was still a Padawan Learner.
“There is a tremor in the Force.”
“Give yourself to the dark side.” -Lord Vader
The issue is Ahsoka. I like her, but Vader’s line, “when I left you I was a learner, now I am the Master,” indicates Vader was never a Jedi Master as Anakin.
Or a full knight for that matter. Just another bit of OT continuity Lucas either forgot or ignored when writing the prequels.
I’ve always been of the mindset that we fans can often take dialogue too literally. This is a case of that for me. After 20 years of experience, a medical doctor would certainly acknowledge that they were still a learner in their first few years out of med school, even though they may still hold the same title. The line is just meant to establish the dynamic of the characters in the scene, it’s not meant to be expository.
To make the case for this particular topic, you’d be better off using Obi-Wan’s line to Luke that Vader “was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil.” Because that IS meant to be expository. But for me personally, even that is vague enough to allow for some wiggle room, as many young (and even older) professionals in the real world have pupil/mentor relationships with others in their field who simply have more experience.
I think we often need to give character dialogue the freedom of having been generalized, abbreviated, obfuscated, etc… because that’s just how humans communicate. We use shorthand, we leave out unnecessary details, we avoid painful discussions. And it doesn’t always paint an accurate picture of our experiences. Just my 2 cents.
The issue is Ahsoka. I like her, but Vader’s line, “when I left you I was a learner, now I am the Master,” indicates Vader was never a Jedi Master as Anakin.
Or a full knight for that matter. Just another bit of OT continuity Lucas either forgot or ignored when writing the prequels.
I’ve always been of the mindset that we fans can often take dialogue too literally. This is a case of that for me. After 20 years of experience, a medical doctor would certainly acknowledge that they were still a learner in their first few years out of med school, even though they may still hold the same title. The line is just meant to establish the dynamic of the characters in the scene, it’s not meant to be expository.
To make the case for this particular topic, you’d be better off using Obi-Wan’s line to Luke that Vader “was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil.” Because that IS meant to be expository. But for me personally, even that is vague enough to allow for some wiggle room, as many young (and even older) professionals in the real world have pupil/mentor relationships with others in their field who simply have more experience.
I think we often need to give character dialogue the freedom of having been generalized, abbreviated, obfuscated, etc… because that’s just how humans communicate. We use shorthand, we leave out unnecessary details, we avoid painful discussions. And it doesn’t always paint an accurate picture of our experiences. Just my 2 cents.
I actually agree that fans tend to take dialogue (and text crawls, for that matter) too literally. I’ll just balance that with an observation of my own: fans who like the prequels often refuse to hold Lucas to the same standards they hold any other SW creator to. If Filoni contradicts the Clone Wars multimedia project, it’s a great sin. But if Lucas contradicts the EU, or the OT novelizations, or the OT itself, in roll the appeals to ad hoc retcons, headcanon, and George’s Vision™. After so many years of this crap, I’m at the end of my rope with it.
“The Anarchists are right in everything; in the negation of the existing order and in the assertion that, without Authority there could not be worse violence than that of Authority under existing conditions. They are mistaken only in thinking that anarchy can be instituted by a violent revolution… There can be only one permanent revolution — a moral one: the regeneration of the inner man. How is this revolution to take place? Nobody knows how it will take place in humanity, but every man feels it clearly in himself. And yet in our world everybody thinks of changing humanity, and nobody thinks of changing himself.”
― Leo Tolstoy
^ The Kings of baffling retcons in Star Wars. Often it is simply unnecessary alterations or re-writes of other creatives’ work in the GFFA.
[snip]
Lists of retcons made in 2008 The Clone Wars, and writing over of Karen Traviss’ previously established work in the EU.
[snip]
I then thought about some of the other retcons and alterations that Dave Filoni has made in his Star Wars projects to other creatives’ previous work in the GFFA… and I ended up going down a bit of a rabbit hole on this! I’ve edited in more articles and information below on just some of his retcons to… the EU, in both Legends and Canon, the Prequel Trilogy, 2003 Clone Wars, Rebels, The Bad Batch, The Mandalorian, Book of Boba Fett, Tales of the Jedi, and also for the Ahsoka series.
[snip]
Wow! Caston, that really is some post! Nice work, and I have bookmarked it for future reference.
I hadn’t realized Filoni was so habitual when it comes to using and then altering others’ previous contributions in Star Wars.
Those links for enormous amount of retcons and alterations in the 2008 The Clone Wars series are real eye openers to me.
The apprentice really has done his best to surpass the master at unnecessary retcons and writing over other creatives’ work.
And those original creatives should definitely have their work credited or referenced each time it is used afterwards by others.
“Don’t tell anyone… but when ‘Star Wars’ first came out, I didn’t know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you’ve planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories - let’s call them homages - and you’ve got a series.” - George Lucas
^ The Kings of baffling retcons in Star Wars. Often it is simply unnecessary alterations or re-writes of other creatives’ work in the GFFA.
[snip]
Lists of retcons made in 2008 The Clone Wars, and writing over of Karen Traviss’ previously established work in the EU.
[snip]
I then thought about some of the other retcons and alterations that Dave Filoni has made in his Star Wars projects to other creatives’ previous work in the GFFA… and I ended up going down a bit of a rabbit hole on this! I’ve edited in more articles and information below on just some of his retcons to… the EU, in both Legends and Canon, the Prequel Trilogy, 2003 Clone Wars, Rebels, The Bad Batch, The Mandalorian, Book of Boba Fett, Tales of the Jedi, and also for the Ahsoka series.
[snip]
Yes, that is an awesome job compiling & highlighting those retcons & changes by Filoni to others’ previous work in Star Wars.
And more impressive that the links are to fair and balanced articles in the main, and not people just looking to hate on Filoni.
I agree with you Caston on the call for the original creatives to be credited when their work in used or mentioned in other later content, whether that work is retconned or not. Putting up a ‘references list’ in the actual episode credits, or in articles and episode guides on the official website would be seem to be a simple and effective way to do that.
Great post!
The Imperial need for control is so desperate because it is so unnatural. Tyranny requires constant effort. It breaks, it leaks. Authority is brittle. Oppression is the mask of fear.
Formerly Emre1601 - computer hard drives are brittle too!
+ Lucasfilm’s own previous statements, PR releases and articles, as well as quotes from George Lucas and other EU creatives.
On the subject of Dave Filoni, he is wrong when he claims, and repeats this incorrect assertion:
“Having worked with George, I can tell you that it was always very clear, and he made it very clear, that the films and the TV show were the only things he considered canon. That was it.”
^ https://youtu.be/hcNXPNXOv2A?t=2460 - 2016 Dave Filoni interview on The Star Wars Show Youtube Channel (at 41 minutes)
or similar Lucasfilm claims before Disney’s buyout in 2012, that ‘only the six films and The Clone Wars series are canon’, or even a couple of years after the purchase of Lucasfilm in the 2014 official “Legends & Canon” announcement, on StarWars.com
‘Regarding the Holocron database in 2012, Chee said: “What sets Star Wars apart from other franchises is that we develop a singular continuity across all forms of media, whether it be the films, TV series, video games, novels and comics, and the Holocron is a key component to Lucasfilm being able to do this.” The Holocron was divided into five levels of canon (in order of precedence)’.
^ Holocron database and canonicity - at Wikipedia
A Brief History Of Star Wars Canon, Old And New - 2015 article at Gizmodo
‘The new game, known by many simply as The Force Unleashed, is the first Star Wars game to be considered by Lucas an actual chapter in the overall story line…’ - CNet article link from 2009
and
‘George Lucas approved of Shaak Ti’s canonical death in The Force Unleashed video game.’ - Twitter thread with a screenshot of extract from ‘The Art Of and Making Of Star Wars: The Force Unleashed’ book, by TFU project lead Haden Blackman, released in 2008.
^ both are from oojason’s The Force Unleashed | Lucasfilm’s 2007-2010 EU multimedia project thread.
“The Force Unleashed: Behind the Scenes George Lucas Involvement” - a 6 minute video at the Callum Johns YouTube channel.
at the Clone Wars boss explains “suspicious” similarities between his show and The Force Awakens interview in 2021 at Digital Spy.
^ from oojason’s Clone Wars | Lucasfilm’s 2002-2007 EU multimedia project info post: and Genndy’s 2003 Clone Wars series.
Long time Star Wars author Michael A Stackpole, of the ‘X-Wing’ & ‘New Jedi Order’ novels (among others), said this in 2020:
^ _https://twitter.com/MikeStackpole_
Michael Stackpole’s work in Star Wars: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Michael_A._Stackpole
Long time Star Wars author Mathew Stover, of the ‘Episode III: ROTS’ & ‘Shatterpoint’ novels (among others), said this in 2021:
‘Star Wars Revenge of the Sith Author, Matthew Stover LIVE’ - at 19 minutes into the Beyond The Blast Doors YouTube video:
“I had a long talk with Mr Lucas out at Skywalker Ranch about Revenge of the Sith. And I asked him a lot of questions, we spent a lot of time about Jedi, and you know, how he wanted the book to feel, and stuff like that. And in those days there’s none of this kind of ‘Canon Wars’ that came about later on. It was all canon. Everything published was canon.”
Matthew Stover’s work in Star Wars: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Matthew_Stover
And it was George himself who suggested doing the novels (New Jedi Order) as the Sequel Trilogy to his then 6 film Saga:
George Lucas in a 1999 interview with Wired:
George also contributed to the New Jedi Order novels himself, despite later claiming in a 2008 interview with TotalFilm:
“And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn’t at all what I would have done it.”
^ despite Lucas actually suggesting & okaying ‘novels as the Sequels’, and then also contributing to the New Jedi Order project.
“New Jedi Order” TV advert a 30 second YouTube video, featuring Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker.
This link to an informative article by xezene on the Reddit/StarWarsEU, with quotes and citations, highlights George Lucas’ significant input and involvement in the ‘New Jedi Order’ EU project:
www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsEU/comments/hr1tnz/behind_the_scenes_the_making_of_the_new_jedi
^ a screenshot of the above article (click on ‘Expand’ below to see the lengthy screenshot):
a screenshot of xezene’s 2 infographics for the New Jedi Order (click on ‘Expand’ below to see the lengthy screenshot)::
And also Lucasfilm’s recent baffling attempts to try and downplay or even deny George’s input and contributions in the EU. This despite numerous EU creatives stating they conferred with George on their projects. Some EU creatives sending their work to be ‘okayed’ by Lucas before going to print. At other times talking over ideas, stories, plotlines, characters, drawings etc, and also receiving feedback from George:
It is pleasing to see Tom Veitch getting some recognition, and “nods” to his work also featured in modern Star Wars.
His and Kevin Anderson’s work for Tales of the Jedi really gave us all the engaging backstory for much of the Sith and that beguiling early Star Wars era history.
I hadn’t realised that they had such a free reign with the project, and had feedback from George on it.
Yet they and the illustrators, had to send off their work to be ‘okayed’ by George, before going to print:
www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsEU/comments/n5qjrl/i_find_it_interesting_that_lucaslucasfilm_allowed (with quotes, links & backup)
& www.darkhorse.com/Interviews/667/Kevin-J-Anderson
www.cbr.com/star-wars-tom-veitchs-10-biggest-impacts-on-the-franchise/#the-old-republic-era (some of his many contributions)
Personally, I think fuck their made up and changing “official canon” claims/rules. Whatever you want it to be, that’s your canon.
If you love or bought the books, novels, comics, toys, and merchandise from any and all the multimedia projects and EU or whatever, then that is your canon if you want. It doesn’t matter what George, Filoni or Lucasfilm says; they are trying to retcon more Star Wars history, and can’t even manage to keep their own later invented rules, stories, and incorrect claims, straight.
In addition to the informative article by xezene on the Reddit/StarWarsEU, with quotes and citations, highlighting George Lucas’ significant input and involvement in the ‘New Jedi Order’ EU project:
www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsEU/comments/hr1tnz/behind_the_scenes_the_making_of_the_new_jedi
^ a screenshot of the above article (click on ‘Expand’ below to see the lengthy screenshot):
a screenshot of xezene’s 2 infographics for the New Jedi Order (click on ‘Expand’ below to see the lengthy screenshot)::
https://www.reddit.com/user/xezene/comments/126sm45/collected_star_wars_expanded_universe_posts
So far, there is:
• George Lucas and Tales of the Jedi
• George Lucas and the Thrawn Trilogy
• George Lucas and the Jedi Academy Trilogy
• George Lucas and The Illustrated Star Wars Universe
• George Lucas and the Bantam era
• George Lucas and the Bantam era (Part II)
• George Lucas and Shadows of the Empire
• George Lucas and the Hand of Thrawn Duology
• George Lucas and the New Jedi Order
• I find it interesting that Lucas/Lucasfilm allowed Tom Veitch and Kevin J. Anderson to develop the Sith so much before Episode I was released (see xezene’s post; their free reign on the project, and even had feedback from George, before going to print)
There are also many other similar themed infographs & posts in the above linked Index by xezene - on numerous EU projects.
The Imperial need for control is so desperate because it is so unnatural. Tyranny requires constant effort. It breaks, it leaks. Authority is brittle. Oppression is the mask of fear.
Formerly Emre1601 - computer hard drives are brittle too!
Personally, I think fuck their made up and changing “official canon” claims/rules. Whatever you want it to be, that’s your canon.
If you bought the books, novels, comics, toys, and merchandise from any and all the multimedia projects and EU or whatever, then that is your canon if you want. It doesn’t matter what George, Filoni or Lucasfilm says; when they are trying to retcon history, or when they can’t even manage to keep their own later invented stories and incorrect claims straight.
100% agree.
“Don’t tell anyone… but when ‘Star Wars’ first came out, I didn’t know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you’ve planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories - let’s call them homages - and you’ve got a series.” - George Lucas
The way I see it, they don’t use canon as a “this happened, non-canon stuff didn’t happen” way, it’s just what new creatives have to take into account when making new things.
Thanks for nice words guys. I enjoyed reading your astute post too, Emre.
The whole “The Legendary Star Wars Expanded Universe Turns a New Page” Legends/Canon idea back in 2014, was meant to keep the all the stories more consistent and interconnected, sitting along side with their film and television content. Yet Filoni has re-written and retconned over some of that new canon content for his projects, most of which were unnecessary to the actual stories being told.
Lucasfilm’s idea in 2014 at implementing “internal consistency” for their content, “interconnected storytelling”, “coordinating creative development”, and being a “creatively aligned program of Star Wars storytelling”; all of which appear in the linked announcement above, seems to have been either lost, ignored, or simply voided, some time ago.
^ I’ll add that to my other post above, it probably reads better in there.
And there is still no valid reason why any of the original creatives and their work should not be credited or referenced when it is being used and rewritten for in new Star Wars content. Sorry, I don’t mean to sound like a stuck record!
“In the future it will become even easier for old negatives to become lost and be “replaced” by new altered negatives. This would be a great loss to our society. Our cultural history must not be allowed to be rewritten.” - George Lucas
Or a full knight for that matter. Just another bit of OT continuity Lucas either forgot or ignored when writing the prequels.
“I was once a Jedi Knight, same as your father.”
This is one of of the places where it’s clear the two were originally separate characters. This is a retcon I like. Honestly I prefer the idea that Anakin was a knight in his own right, in fact I wish he was for more of the trilogy.
Basically i’ve given up on the very idea of canon being anything other than a guideline. Since the people making these television and film franchises are just making it up as they go. Whether it is Star Wars, Indiana Jones or Star Trek. Its malleable and not set in stone. That doesn’t mean that a secondary universe should violate its own rules, or lore.
Its all fake isn’t a good excuse for telling a bad story, or making a bad movie. Anymore than saying its a kids movie, or i based it on 1930’s matinee serials so the quality doesn’t matter.
The thing is, most of the contradictions between TCW and the Multimedia Project are not even Filoni’s fault, but Lucas’ fault. TCW was Lucas’ pet project, he had complete creative control over it, and decided whatever something was good enough as to be shown in the series, or not. He decided everything, so he’s the only responsible for the contradictions between TCW and the EU. In fact, from what I’ve come to understand, Filoni’s original plan for TCW was very different from the show we got. He initially planned to create a circumscribed story that would have revolved around a specific group of characters. The group he had in mind was supposed to be the crew of a ship going on various adventures during the Clone Wars. Apparently he didn’t want Anakin and Obi-Wan to be part of the show, precisely in order to avoid contradicting the Clone Wars Multimedia Project. But it seems that George rejected the idea and wanted Anakin and Obi-Wan to be part of the show, so Filoni agreed, accepted George’s conditions and started working on TCW by following George’s desire of having Anakin and Obi-Wan is prominent characters in the show. Don’t get me wrong, nowadays Filoni acts like a hack, who doesn’t respect the work of other people and doesn’t mind contradicting it. But I don’t think he always had this behavior. I believe that he was initially a genuine EU fan who didn’t want to contradict the established continuity, until George taught him that continuity doesn’t really matter, with the result that Filoni took this attitude from George and started saying to himself: “Well, if George doesn’t respect continuity, then why should I respect it? You know what? I don’t want to care about anyone else’s story, I just want to do my own thing.” So, if anyone is to blame for TCW’s faults in terms of continuity, then it’s Lucas, not Filoni. At least not entirely.
The issue is Ahsoka. I like her, but Vader’s line, “when I left you I was a learner, now I am the Master,” indicates Vader was never a Jedi Master as Anakin.
Or a full knight for that matter. Just another bit of OT continuity Lucas either forgot or ignored when writing the prequels.
I’ve always been of the mindset that we fans can often take dialogue too literally. This is a case of that for me. After 20 years of experience, a medical doctor would certainly acknowledge that they were still a learner in their first few years out of med school, even though they may still hold the same title. The line is just meant to establish the dynamic of the characters in the scene, it’s not meant to be expository.
To make the case for this particular topic, you’d be better off using Obi-Wan’s line to Luke that Vader “was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil.” Because that IS meant to be expository. But for me personally, even that is vague enough to allow for some wiggle room, as many young (and even older) professionals in the real world have pupil/mentor relationships with others in their field who simply have more experience.
I think we often need to give character dialogue the freedom of having been generalized, abbreviated, obfuscated, etc… because that’s just how humans communicate. We use shorthand, we leave out unnecessary details, we avoid painful discussions. And it doesn’t always paint an accurate picture of our experiences. Just my 2 cents.
If Filoni contradicts the Clone Wars multimedia project, it’s a great sin. But if Lucas contradicts the EU, or the OT novelizations, or the OT itself, in roll the appeals to ad hoc retcons, headcanon, and George’s Vision™. After so many years of this crap, I’m at the end of my rope with it.
I too have the kind of behavior that you are talking about, but I’m not as hypocritical as the people you described. I have two main reasons of why I complain about certain contradictions while ignoring others:
Firstly, my personal taste. I don’t try to hide my personal taste behind “George’s vision” and bulshit like that. I’m intellectually honest, so I admit that one of the reasons of why I don’t care about the contradictions between the Prequels and the pre-1999 EU, while complaining about the contradictions between TCW and the Multimedia Project, is because I like the Prequels and dislike TCW in the first place. I vastly prefer Georgia’s version of the Clone Wars over what Timothy Zhan had in mind, and I generally don’t even care about the post-ROTJ EU anyway, so I’m more than willing to ignore those contradictions. I’m not afraid to say it, I don’t want to make up any excuse for it, and I don’t want to hide my personal taste behind someone else’s vision.
Secondly, I don’t think that the contradictions between the Prequels and the EU were as deep as the contradictions between TCW and the EU.
Before the de-canonization of the EU, the authors and those that were in charge of continuity managed to solve the contradictions between the EU and the Prequels in a way that is more than convincing for me. They made up pretty sensible explanations for those contradictions, they even created entire comics just to solve contradictions, and I’m fine with the explanations they gave. On the other hand, they never managed to solve the contradictions between TCW and the EU, simply because they were so deep that they couldn’t be solved in the first place. So much so, that a couple of years ago Leland Chee himself said on Instagram that solving those contradictions is literally impossible, and that he himself sees the Clone Wars Multimedia Project as the real version of the Clone Wars.
And don’t get me wrong guys, I’m not saying that the explanations they gave to solve the contradictions between the Prequels and the EU make sense from an objective point of view. I’m simply saying that they make sense FOR ME, and that this (other than my personal taste) is the reason of why I don’t complain much about these contradictions.
“Sometimes we must let go of our pride, and do what is requested to us.”
– Anakin Skywalker
The thing is, most of the contradictions between TCW and the Multimedia Project are not even Filoni’s fault, but Lucas’ fault. TCW was Lucas’ pet project, he had complete creative control over it, and decided whatever something was good enough as to be shown in the series, or not. He decided everything, so he’s the only responsible for the contradictions between TCW and the EU.
I don’t think anyone is disputing that George was in overall charge of The Clone Wars (the early seasons), or that most of the early contradictions in it likely came from George, or that it is likely that more came from George, than did from Filoni. But it does appear George did not have “complete creative control” or that “He decided everything”, and so on.
George actually wanted to kill Ahsoka off, Filoni didn’t, and so Ahsoka lived. That is quite a big creative control decision:
George Lucas Originally Wanted Ahsoka to Die in ‘The Clone Wars’ at CheatSheet
and other similar articles like this:
Filoni Says George Lucas is ‘”Full-On ‘Ahsoka Dies’ Camp’” at Inside The Magic
George Lucas Wanted Ahsoka To Die Before ‘The Mandalorian’ at Futurism
But I do respect your viewpoint, and I can see where you are coming from in the rest of your interesting post.
The Imperial need for control is so desperate because it is so unnatural. Tyranny requires constant effort. It breaks, it leaks. Authority is brittle. Oppression is the mask of fear.
Formerly Emre1601 - computer hard drives are brittle too!
I dont care what anyone says TCW TV Show contradicts Revenge of the Sith Movie Anakin tells to Dooku in the Movie “My Powers have doubled since the last time we met Count” and Obi Wan says “You wont get away this time Dooku” a clear reference that Anakin and Obi Wan have not seen or fought Dooku since Attack of the Clones that was the Original intention but now i have to pretend they fought several times during the Clone Wars Anakin now had a Padawan and Darth Maul is still Alive and the Clones now use Chips so Kids who watched the TV Show cant be Sad about the Clones turning Evil but well George Lucas never cared about the Continuity of the Movies since Yoda “There is Another” being Actually Leia, Anakin not being the Already Good Pilot when Obi Wan met Anakin or that Lucas forgot that Padme must have Survived to make Leia Quote to Luke about Leia Remembering her Real Mother to be True also TCW is Overrated i cant take that Show too seriously and its not the Best Work ever Created in Star Wars like many Fans say it is Star Wars for Lucas was just a Big Commercial to promote Toys
