Community Focus Thread 1: The Phantom Menace — Page 19

StarkillerAG said:

Personally, I feel sort of uncomfortable using AI voice clips for fanediting. The fact that we can now create new movie dialogue out of thin air, with no input from the original actors at all, feels sort of soulless to me. Call me a Luddite, but AI in general is a Pandora’s box that I’m not really comfortable opening.

If we’re going to change Jar-Jar’s dialogue, I think the classic “foreign dub with new subtitles” route is the best way to go about it. Sure, Jar-Jar does appear in later canon material, but you can just assume he learned English in between movies (which would explain his dialect).

That’s fair. I also agree that replacing all of a character’s dialogue with AI feels weird, and if someone were to go the route of redubbing Jar Jar, it should be with a real voice actor (just like a foreign dub of a movie).

Personally for me, I think AI should work as a tool to make possible things that wouldn’t have been possible otherwise. For example, JJ had a bunch of deleted scenes of Leia from The Force Awakens that he wanted to use in TROS but probably couldn’t because the dialogue didn’t work with the new plot. If a line of AI dialogue would have allowed that scene to be used (along with shots of Carrie’s real performance), I imagine that JJ would have done it. To make a deleted scene work in Restructured/Starlight, I ended up mashing together several of Leia’s lines with new mouth movements, but that allowed for the inclusion of my favorite Leia character moment in all of the sequels, one that absolutely deserved to be in the movie.

So yes, AI is a tool, and it is up to us to use to use it to enable more human performances and storytelling, not to impoverish them.

Maybe Jar Jar could have dialogue replaced in AOTC to help him seem like he’s grown or changed in the decade since TPM. I believe that was the original idea.

“Obi! I’m so please to see you again!”

“Senator Amidala, I’m pleased to present these two Jedi arriving.”

“I’m busting with happiness seeing you again, Anakin.”

“She’s happy. Happier than I’ve seen her in a long time.”

“I am honored to be taking on this heavy burden. I accept this with all humility and…”

“…Senate. Fellow delegates. In response to this direct threat to the Republic, I propose that the Senate give immediate emergency powers to the Supreme Chancellor.”

Later in the hallway “Don’t touch my robes, I’ll fucking kill you!”

NeverarGreat said:

StarkillerAG said:

Personally, I feel sort of uncomfortable using AI voice clips for fanediting. The fact that we can now create new movie dialogue out of thin air, with no input from the original actors at all, feels sort of soulless to me. Call me a Luddite, but AI in general is a Pandora’s box that I’m not really comfortable opening.

If we’re going to change Jar-Jar’s dialogue, I think the classic “foreign dub with new subtitles” route is the best way to go about it. Sure, Jar-Jar does appear in later canon material, but you can just assume he learned English in between movies (which would explain his dialect).

That’s fair. I also agree that replacing all of a character’s dialogue with AI feels weird, and if someone were to go the route of redubbing Jar Jar, it should be with a real voice actor (just like a foreign dub of a movie).

Personally for me, I think AI should work as a tool to make possible things that wouldn’t have been possible otherwise. For example, JJ had a bunch of deleted scenes of Leia from The Force Awakens that he wanted to use in TROS but probably couldn’t because the dialogue didn’t work with the new plot. If a line of AI dialogue would have allowed that scene to be used (along with shots of Carrie’s real performance), I imagine that JJ would have done it. To make a deleted scene work in Restructured/Starlight, I ended up mashing together several of Leia’s lines with new mouth movements, but that allowed for the inclusion of my favorite Leia character moment in all of the sequels, one that absolutely deserved to be in the movie.

So yes, AI is a tool, and it is up to us to use to use it to enable more human performances and storytelling, not to impoverish them.

I… Mostly kinda sorta agree with this. On the one hand, I think there is a benefit to utilizing AI voices. I watched a fan mix called Three F—ing Bears, which utilizes a Sylvester Stallone AI for the narration of the edit. I enjoyed it a lot, and I recommend it to any Rambo fans who want a good laugh. For me, that edit is a good example of AI done right.

On the other hand, I also get where Starkiller is coming from, and I think AI voices are best used sparingly. It’s the same way I feel about CGI. Movies that keep CGI to a minimum (like Jurassic Park and Terminator 2) often come up with incredible CGI that still holds up to this day. But often times, the temptation to overuse and abuse CGI is strong. So it is with AI voices. I suppose if there’s a way to utilize an AI Jar Jar that works well, then so be it. But at the same time, I wouldn’t recommend AI as the end-all-be-all solution to the problem.

ifjg said:

Using an AI trained by Jar Jar’s lines to replace his dialogue seems a lot more respectable to Ahmed Best’s performance compared to throwing out his voice entirely. I don’t see much of an ethical issue here beyond just what comes standard with taking someone else’s work and recutting it to suit your taste. This also seems great for making edits that would stand up fine alongside canon media or others’ edits, since it can indeed be jarring going from a redubbed Jar Jar to the official voice.

It’s not really a matter of “respecting the original performance” for me. I’d argue that any form of fanediting could be considered disrespectful to the original creators, because it implies that there’s something wrong with their work. My concerns are mostly based around getting the best possible performance: an AI is inherently less capable of expressing emotion than a human being. No matter how good these AI programs get, they will never sound “human” to me.

Also, as long as the new voice is reasonably similar to the original, I don’t think canon compatibility is a huge issue. Characters change actors in official media all the time. I personally think canon compatibility is an overrated concept in the first place, but that’s another issue.

Are we gonna do another community focus thread at some point?

If there’s interest! Happy to take suggestions for topics.

EddieDean said:

If there’s interest! Happy to take suggestions for topics.

either of the next two prequels

I’d vote for Episode II. I think, that out of the three prequels it has the biggest potential for improvement.

EDIT: However there are ulterior motives, I reckon. I am currently working on an alternate version of Padmé’s speech and I conjecture that the amount of feedback I will get is proportional to the attention AOTC gets 😄

I thought it was gonna go in order until I saw that the second one was ROTJ. Not complaining but I was surprised.

Anakin Starkiller said:

Anyway, what about non-SW focus threads? Would those be viable?

Not in the Star Wars fan-edits section, no

Anakin Starkiller said:

Oh right, there’s another one already. I forgot cuz it didn’t stick around on the first page long.

Anyway, what about non-SW focus threads? Would those be viable?

I agree with G&G-Fan, it would have to go into the “fan edits and projects for other properties” section. Thematically I would like to see a thread on LOTR edits that try to match the books more closely.

EddieDean said:

If there’s interest! Happy to take suggestions for topics.

Makes sense to me that Episode II should be next. After all, if we’re starting with I, we might as well go straight for the next movie. I know the Episode VI thread is already out, but I’d rather take things in a certain order than do it all at random.

Nah it should’ve just gone in order in the first place. This is a perfect time to course correct.

I agree with the consensus that AOTC should be next. The weird skip from TPM straight to ROTJ is what killed the community discussion threads, in my opinion. There’s just more to talk about with Clones than there is with Jedi.

Anakin Starkiller said:

StarkillerAG said:

There’s just more to talk about with Clones than there is with Jedi.

I don’t buy that.

I do. After 20 years of AOTC fanedits, there are still severe problems with that movie, and fixing those problems would make for some pretty interesting discussion. Meanwhile, ROTJ is generally agreed to be the least bad “bad Star Wars movie”, with most people just holding out for Revisited to be their definitive version. There’s a reason why the ROTJ discussion thread fizzled out almost immediately.

OK, sounds like AOTC is a sensible next move. I won’t be able to get to this right away, but I can probably pick it up within a week. I’ll try to put in as much detail as before, just so we’re best equipped.

I think I’m going to return to seeing what can be done to really smooth out all the final act, further refining the ideas here and then here (link contains latest version of the scene).

I think there are a few things I still need to work on:

• Potentially a new line during the hangar shootout to have one of Padmé’s guards say something like “I’ve received a report that the gungans have surrendered! We HAVE to make it to Gunray!” Ideally Anakin hears this, which is why he then activates his ship to shoot the droidekas that threaten Padmé’s crew, preceding his decision to join the space fight.
• Bridging the two Padmé capture scenes into one slightly longer one, and placing it after Maul kills Qui-Gon. (I’d use a zoomed 4K shot to get a good bridging reaction of Gunray as the doors open to reveal captured Padmé.)
• Make some of Rogueleader’s suggested changes to Anakin’s space combat, having the out-of-control spin early by mistake as Anakin’s still rough with the controls, and then the deliberate spin into the hangar as Anakin takes confident control.
• I’m not sure about having Qui-Gon communicating to Anakin through the force, probably it’s a step too far, and I don’t think I can make a better version of this, but I’m still a little on the fance.

I think I’d like to reorder the whole like this (changes to prior ideas in bold):

PLAN: Gungan army draws out droid army, allowing Padmé’s crew to infiltrate the city and palace. Jedi will move to capture Gunray (plan A) whilst pilots move to take out the droid control ship (plan B).

1. Gungans and droids face off on the plains, droid tanks fail to breach Gungan shields, so droids are activated and enter shields, close combat begins.
2. Padmé’s team and Jedi infiltrate the city, Neimoidians show suprise and request defensive droidekas, team makes it into the palace hangar.
3. Gungan battle turns bad as the droidekas take out their cavalry and the shields, Gungans attempt to flee.
4. Pilots are freed and we follow them up into space and first combat with the droid control ship.
5. Gungans surrender. (Now we have one less thing to think about - they were a distraction anyway plus the characters we care about least in this sequence - and jeopardy hangs over the other plots.)
6. Padmé’s team become aware that the Gungans are captured, and restate the plan to get to Gunray in the throne room, and they move to do that.
7. Maul appears and the Jedi step in to deal with him; Padmé’s team must go alone. (First plan change. Maul’s presence changes everything - with only the Jedi, the capture of Gunray would have been near certain. If Maul were to defeat the Jedi, the palace plot would be a near certain loss. Everything on the ground hinges on this fight.)
8. Droidekas in the hangar block Padmé (Jeopardy for plan A that the Jedi can’t solve) so Anakin activates his ship to deal with that; Padmé’s team run into the palace. (With Padmé’s crew moving through the palace for an unspecified amount of time, we don’t need to follow this plot until we choose.)
9. Anakin heads into space, stating his intention to help. (He recognises that plan A is in full jeopardy, so joins plan B.)
10. Maul/Jedi battle continues from the hangar into the power room. (The Jedi/Sith appear evenly matched.)
11. Anakin joins the battle in space, determined to help but less obviously skilled.
12. Maul/Jedi battle continues into the forcefield gates, they all pause. (We get a beat here for an extended focus on Anakin).
13. Anakin grows in obvious competence, and enters the droid control ship - but his ship fails. (This plotline’s in jeopardy, so everything hinges on Padmé’s team, or hopefully the Jedi’s victory.)
14. Maul/Jedi battle continues, Qui-Gon is killed. (Apparent failiure. But because Obi-Wan is behind the wall, we can also pause from this plotline for a beat or two.)
15. Padmé’s team (running) get captured by droidekas (requested by Gunray, making him seem more competent). Flow straight from these shots directly into-
16. Padmé’s team are brought to Gunray. “Your little resurrection is at an end.” (This was the last hope for Plan A, so the mission seems to have failed. Definitely a loss unless we can get a Jedi back in play.)
17. Obi-Wan fights Maul, but ends up hanging in the pit. (Lowest point, least hope.)
18. Anakin turns his ship back on, destroys the droid control ship, and escapes. (Hope returns as if from nowhere).
19. Gungans are freed, and cheer. Brief high for this plotline, but no mission victory yet-
20. Padmé’s team capture Gunray. The army and Gunray are defeated, thanks to Anakin, but Maul’s still a threat to our main characters on the ground
21. Obi-Wan’s being taunted by Maul’s sparks, but jumps up and bisects him. Qui-Gon’s death scene follows. Now that the mission is complete, we see the cost of victory.
22. Endings.