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Best Explanation Of Mary Sue Issue

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Mary Sue Video

This video best explains the Mary Sue issue not just for StarWars but for other future films.

“We Are What They Grow Beyond” - Yoda


My Prefered Saga Viewing Preference:
Ep. III - Revenge of the Sith Special Edition (StankPac Edit) * Rogue One - A Star Wars Story (Gareth Edwards Original Version)
Ep. IV - A New Hope Despecialized Edition (Harmy Edit) * Ep. V - Empire Strikes Back Revisited (Adywan Edit)
Ep. VI - Return of The Jedi Despecialized Edition (Harmy Edit) * Ep. VII - The Force Awakens Restructured (Hal 9000 Edit)
Ep. VIII - The Last Jedi Legendary (Hal 9000 Edit)

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I don’t like the ST myself, but the Mary Sue argument is very silly and indicative of one’s attitude towards women. “We don’t hate women, we hate poorly written characters” doesn’t apply when a person defends the prequel trilogy over these films.

Lord of the Rings - Principal Photography cuts (WIP):
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Lord-of-the-Rings-Trilogy-Restructured-to-match-the-Rough-cutScript/id/64399#1258894
Caligula’expanded OST, V2 Released:
http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Caligula-1979-Expanded-OST/id/48671
The Shining’s complete OST:
http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/THE-SHINING-Complete-Score/id/57316

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 (Edited)

IsanRido said:

I don’t like the ST myself, but the Mary Sue argument is very silly and indicative of one’s attitude towards women. “We don’t hate women, we hate poorly written characters” doesn’t apply when a person defends the prequel trilogy over these films.

Your right the prequals were just poorly written stories and films where as Force Awakens and Last Jedi whether you like them or not have more depth within the narrotive. Personally I like TFA & TLJ and overall can overlook their faults to enjoy the story they tell and look forward the future ones to come when the Skywalker saga finishes.

“We Are What They Grow Beyond” - Yoda


My Prefered Saga Viewing Preference:
Ep. III - Revenge of the Sith Special Edition (StankPac Edit) * Rogue One - A Star Wars Story (Gareth Edwards Original Version)
Ep. IV - A New Hope Despecialized Edition (Harmy Edit) * Ep. V - Empire Strikes Back Revisited (Adywan Edit)
Ep. VI - Return of The Jedi Despecialized Edition (Harmy Edit) * Ep. VII - The Force Awakens Restructured (Hal 9000 Edit)
Ep. VIII - The Last Jedi Legendary (Hal 9000 Edit)

💡 Save confusion & express your comments with Markdown Emojis here 💡

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IsanRido said:

“We don’t hate women, we hate poorly written characters” doesn’t apply when a person defends the prequel trilogy over these films.

Indeed.

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“To be good and lead a good life means to give to others more than one takes from them.” — Leo Tolstoy

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IsanRido said:

I don’t like the ST myself, but the Mary Sue argument is very silly and indicative of one’s attitude towards women. “We don’t hate women, we hate poorly written characters” doesn’t apply when a person defends the prequel trilogy over these films.

What about someone who doesn’t prefer to PT over these films? I agree the characters in the Prequels are bland and make strange decisions for the sake of the plot. However, I would also argue that Rey is overpowered, like how Anakin the 9 year old destroyed the trade federation ship at the end despite professionals failing to do. Whether or not she is female is irrelevant.

Vader, a 7 in 1 edit of the entire Star Wars Saga

Maul, a clone wars edit

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How on earth are people still interested in talking about this?

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joefavs said:

How on earth are people still interested in talking about this?

Because clickbait videos about Star Wars are most profitable?

Lord of the Rings - Principal Photography cuts (WIP):
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Lord-of-the-Rings-Trilogy-Restructured-to-match-the-Rough-cutScript/id/64399#1258894
Caligula’expanded OST, V2 Released:
http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Caligula-1979-Expanded-OST/id/48671
The Shining’s complete OST:
http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/THE-SHINING-Complete-Score/id/57316

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 (Edited)

Man, I really don’t like Thor Skywalker. All of his stuff is very clickbaity. He speaks with this same tone in all of his videos, as if each sentence is some deep point he is making. It’s really manipulative, and makes people feel like they agree with what he’s saying without even thinking about it. But I guess that describes most clickbaity Star Wars YouTubers.

EDIT: And personally it seems a lot of female fans like Rey, and it gets kind of tiring hearing the perspective of male fans (or the one or two female YouTubers who have a large male audience). That’s personally why I like the Reylo community a lot. At least they actually have fun watching these movies, and their conversations are generally positive.

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When you clickbait, you make Yoda cry. 😛

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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RogueLeader said:

At least they actually have fun watching these movies, and their conversations are generally positive.

This. When your relationship with Star Wars consists largely of railing against Star Wars, you’re doing Star Wars wrong.

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joefavs said:

This. When your relationship with Star Wars consists largely of railing against Star Wars, you’re doing Star Wars wrong.

^^Agreed, joe!

Which is sort of my gripe with stuff like Star Wars Theory and his fan film. I love fan films, and Lucasfilm has been doing Fan Films awards for over a decade. It’s definitely supposed to be a thing of love for the franchise. But what ST Theory has done feels like it is coming from a place of hate for Lucasfilm. A big thing of his, and other YouTubers like Geeks and Gamers, is that they constantly criticize the new movies and Lucasfilm, and basically ST Theory makes this as a way of saying “The new movies suck, THE FANS can do it better.” And naturally a ton of comments are like, “This is SO MUCH BETTER than The Last Jedi.”

And of course people still criticize Lucasfilm and think it is crazy that he can’t make any money of a fan film. Of course he can’t, but now they are the villains when people have been making fan films just for the love of the franchise for decades with no complaints.

And like this video Darth Muffy shared with us. It has like 1 Million views. I guess critical clickbait gets the $$. But monetized criticism has, in my opinion, generated negativity in entertainment in general.

I don’t know. At least growing up I was oblivious to the prequel bashing. I was able to enjoy the movies outside that bubble for the most part. I hope kids nowadays aren’t having that problem, like being told they’re wrong for liking these new movies. But I feel like a sizable audience for these kind of videos are preteens/young adults, so they are growing up in a warzone of arguments. It sucks that a lot of my memories of these past few years with the new movies have been filled with negativity like this. Even going to see TFA and TLJ in theaters with friends, some of them just complained the whole time. They couldn’t even let anyone else enjoy it. I’m definitely just going to go see IX with my father, since we’re both happy with these new movies.

Sorry for the rant. Just get tired of this stuff man. I know this has little to do with the point of your post, Muffy. I think Rey could’ve been written a little better, but I just think the whole Mary Sue argument is a tool haters use to justify their disdain for these new movies.

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RogueLeader said:

Man, I really don’t like Thor Skywalker. All of his stuff is very clickbaity. He speaks with this same tone in all of his videos, as if each sentence is some deep point he is making. It’s really manipulative, and makes people feel like they agree with what he’s saying without even thinking about it. But I guess that describes most clickbaity Star Wars YouTubers.

EDIT: And personally it seems a lot of female fans like Rey, and it gets kind of tiring hearing the perspective of male fans (or the one or two female YouTubers who have a large male audience). That’s personally why I like the Reylo community a lot. At least they actually have fun watching these movies, and their conversations are generally positive.

I generally appreciate the points Thor makes, though not the affected gravitas. However, I think there are far worse offenders in that category (Nerdwriter, I’m looking at you).

However, your point about the Reylo community got me thinking…most of the male critics of Rey like to point out how egalitarian they are by offering up Strong Female Leads, and they’re invariably Ripley/Sarah Connor/Furiosa/etc, in other words action heroines. They then compare Rey to these examples to show how easy her victories seem in comparison to these legendary badasses.

But maybe they have made the mistake of assuming that the Star Wars ST falls under the action genre, when the reality is that the ST could simply be a different genre altogether.

In a drama, especially a romantic drama, the female lead is rarely beset by physical obstacles, but rather mental/emotional ones. The most defining flaw of Rey’s character is a desire for belonging against the growing feeling that her every relationship is doomed. Rey would not be out of place as the lead in a drama, but since Star Wars has such a strong aspect of action there is also the expectation for Rey to be an action heroine and conform to the rules and limitations implied in its previous installments.

That’s where the disconnect seems to be - the Reylo crowd reads the ST as a (romantic) drama, while the ‘""""“True”""""""’ Star Wars fans read the ST as an action movie and a strict continuation of everything in the first six Star Wars installments.

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A New Hope Technicolor Recreation (Released!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V2 Released!) and The Starlight Project

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I think this is a good point.

I actually did a research paper on the Hero’s Journey and Rey’s story arc in The Force Awakens back in college, and I discovered another analytical device called the Heroine’s Journey. It basically posits that there are two major journey’s a protagonist can experience. While most (male) protagonists face more physical trials, female protagonists in stories often face more internal challenges.

I can’t for the life of me remember the title, but I was recommended a book series about a girl who is a member of a royal family. Her father and brother, the king and the heir, are killed away from home, and she is swept into the burden of ruling the kingdom before she is ready. So instead of her journey being about going on some big adventure to strange places, hers is more about learning how to take care of and protect her kingdom, while growing into her own identity.

It does make me think of Rey a lot, as in Rey’s journey is really focused on her identity and that sense of belonging.
I think for a lot of female fans, this resonates with them, and they care more about that than how much Force training she has or something like that.

But to me, her combat skills or force abilities aren’t real issues imo. Though I do think some edits, like one of yours where Rey takes longer to figure out the mind trick, can help alleviate some of those issues I think people have.

I don’t think these two different journeys are necessarily exclusive to the genders, but the hero and heroine’s journeys represent more masculine/feminine, in the Jungian sense, explorations of the self. They just generally fall into the categories of male and female protagonists.

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RogueLeader said:

joefavs said:

This. When your relationship with Star Wars consists largely of railing against Star Wars, you’re doing Star Wars wrong.

^^Agreed, joe!

Which is sort of my gripe with stuff like Star Wars Theory and his fan film. I love fan films, and Lucasfilm has been doing Fan Films awards for over a decade. It’s definitely supposed to be a thing of love for the franchise. But what ST Theory has done feels like it is coming from a place of hate for Lucasfilm. A big thing of his, and other YouTubers like Geeks and Gamers, is that they constantly criticize the new movies and Lucasfilm, and basically ST Theory makes this as a way of saying “The new movies suck, THE FANS can do it better.” And naturally a ton of comments are like, “This is SO MUCH BETTER than The Last Jedi.”

And of course people still criticize Lucasfilm and think it is crazy that he can’t make any money of a fan film. Of course he can’t, but now they are the villains when people have been making fan films just for the love of the franchise for decades with no complaints.

And like this video Darth Muffy shared with us. It has like 1 Million views. I guess critical clickbait gets the $$. But monetized criticism has, in my opinion, generated negativity in entertainment in general.

I don’t know. At least growing up I was oblivious to the prequel bashing. I was able to enjoy the movies outside that bubble for the most part. I hope kids nowadays aren’t having that problem, like being told they’re wrong for liking these new movies. But I feel like a sizable audience for these kind of videos are preteens/young adults, so they are growing up in a warzone of arguments. It sucks that a lot of my memories of these past few years with the new movies have been filled with negativity like this. Even going to see TFA and TLJ in theaters with friends, some of them just complained the whole time. They couldn’t even let anyone else enjoy it. I’m definitely just going to go see IX with my father, since we’re both happy with these new movies.

Sorry for the rant. Just get tired of this stuff man. I know this has little to do with the point of your post, Muffy. I think Rey could’ve been written a little better, but I just think the whole Mary Sue argument is a tool haters use to justify their disdain for these new movies.

^this . +1 ! I also think it is pretty gracious of Lucasfilm to have allowed fan films to even be made and to not have come down very hard on fan edits as well . I worry that these people bashing the films constantly with clickbait videos will eventually ruin it for everyone .Sharts Of The Past .er , I mean Shards, has indeed been presented with a we can do it better attitude imho.

https://screamsinthevoid.deviantart.com/

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Exactly. A “we can do it better” attitude is a good description.

Apparently Star Trek fans have a lot more trouble with the big wigs, with the “Axanar” Star Trek fan film having to go to court with CBS over it. And now they only can do one 15-30 minute short if I understood correctly, when they were planning a longer project before the drama started.

Maybe a lot of these type of fans who spread the negativity don’t do it intentionally, but they’re clearly feeding that flame.

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joefavs said:

RogueLeader said:

At least they actually have fun watching these movies, and their conversations are generally positive.

This. When your relationship with Star Wars consists largely of railing against Star Wars, you’re doing Star Wars wrong.

Amen man. There are many films I’ve seen that I’ve strongly disliked or hated, some within franchises I love. But I usually just say “it sucked” and move on with my life. I can’t imagine expending the amount of energy some people do hating on things. If for no other reason than when something disappoints me, I try not to think about! But there’s a weird mentality these days were if someone hates something and sees someone else liking it, they have to yell at them. I don’t get it (though I won’t pretend I’m immune to the same impulses even if I consciously try to avoid them). When it comes to being something like Star Wars, if you spend half your time talking about what you hate about it, I have to wonder if you’re really a fan at all. Not that you can’t hate things about it, but if you consider yourself a fan, why aren’t you talking more about what you like?

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NeverarGreat said:

RogueLeader said:

Man, I really don’t like Thor Skywalker. All of his stuff is very clickbaity. He speaks with this same tone in all of his videos, as if each sentence is some deep point he is making. It’s really manipulative, and makes people feel like they agree with what he’s saying without even thinking about it. But I guess that describes most clickbaity Star Wars YouTubers.

EDIT: And personally it seems a lot of female fans like Rey, and it gets kind of tiring hearing the perspective of male fans (or the one or two female YouTubers who have a large male audience). That’s personally why I like the Reylo community a lot. At least they actually have fun watching these movies, and their conversations are generally positive.

I generally appreciate the points Thor makes, though not the affected gravitas. However, I think there are far worse offenders in that category (Nerdwriter, I’m looking at you).

However, your point about the Reylo community got me thinking…most of the male critics of Rey like to point out how egalitarian they are by offering up Strong Female Leads, and they’re invariably Ripley/Sarah Connor/Furiosa/etc, in other words action heroines. They then compare Rey to these examples to show how easy her victories seem in comparison to these legendary badasses.

But maybe they have made the mistake of assuming that the Star Wars ST falls under the action genre, when the reality is that the ST could simply be a different genre altogether.

In a drama, especially a romantic drama, the female lead is rarely beset by physical obstacles, but rather mental/emotional ones. The most defining flaw of Rey’s character is a desire for belonging against the growing feeling that her every relationship is doomed. Rey would not be out of place as the lead in a drama, but since Star Wars has such a strong aspect of action there is also the expectation for Rey to be an action heroine and conform to the rules and limitations implied in its previous installments.

That’s where the disconnect seems to be - the Reylo crowd reads the ST as a (romantic) drama, while the ‘""""“True”""""""’ Star Wars fans read the ST as an action movie and a strict continuation of everything in the first six Star Wars installments.

That’s an interesting way to look at it. It certainly goes with what I’ve been trying to say here about her character, though I never looked at it from that framework. I think the idea that those looking for SW to follow a “action movie” model were likely very displeased with TLJ especially, and far from just because of Rey’s story. Not something I considered but definitely helps to explain some of the negative reaction. (re: RogueLeader and “the Heroine’s Journey,” I actually think I read an article or blog post on this very subject in relation to Rey, will have to see if I can dig it up.)

I think it’s a danger when you try to pigeon-hold Star Wars into the trappings of any genre when it’s been busting conventions since its invention. Even just looking at what you said, it’d be very easy to make the wrong assumptions, i.e. romance is the “right” way to look at Rey and the ST. With the Reylo camp especially the conclusion could prove very upsetting if you’re married too closely to a specific train of thought on where the story is “supposed” to go.

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NeverarGreat said:

RogueLeader said:

Man, I really don’t like Thor Skywalker. All of his stuff is very clickbaity. He speaks with this same tone in all of his videos, as if each sentence is some deep point he is making. It’s really manipulative, and makes people feel like they agree with what he’s saying without even thinking about it. But I guess that describes most clickbaity Star Wars YouTubers.

EDIT: And personally it seems a lot of female fans like Rey, and it gets kind of tiring hearing the perspective of male fans (or the one or two female YouTubers who have a large male audience). That’s personally why I like the Reylo community a lot. At least they actually have fun watching these movies, and their conversations are generally positive.

I generally appreciate the points Thor makes, though not the affected gravitas. However, I think there are far worse offenders in that category (Nerdwriter, I’m looking at you).

However, your point about the Reylo community got me thinking…most of the male critics of Rey like to point out how egalitarian they are by offering up Strong Female Leads, and they’re invariably Ripley/Sarah Connor/Furiosa/etc, in other words action heroines. They then compare Rey to these examples to show how easy her victories seem in comparison to these legendary badasses.

But maybe they have made the mistake of assuming that the Star Wars ST falls under the action genre, when the reality is that the ST could simply be a different genre altogether.

In a drama, especially a romantic drama, the female lead is rarely beset by physical obstacles, but rather mental/emotional ones. The most defining flaw of Rey’s character is a desire for belonging against the growing feeling that her every relationship is doomed. Rey would not be out of place as the lead in a drama, but since Star Wars has such a strong aspect of action there is also the expectation for Rey to be an action heroine and conform to the rules and limitations implied in its previous installments.

That’s where the disconnect seems to be - the Reylo crowd reads the ST as a (romantic) drama, while the ‘""""“True”""""""’ Star Wars fans read the ST as an action movie and a strict continuation of everything in the first six Star Wars installments.

I think the reason fans keep offering up Ripley and Sarah Connor as examples of their own egalitarianism is to counter the constant claim that criticism of Rey is tantamount to fostering misogyny. Then, of course, they’re accused of being misogynists for that very reason - the fact that they doubled down with Ripley and co. is supposedly proof of the fragility of their position. They simply can’t win.

We don’t get this with Jar Jar Binks. Plenty of fans hate Jar Jar and say he’s a childish and badly written character. Plenty of defenders counter with notions of mythical and psychological tropes to justify Jar Jar’s place in the saga. But no-one gets accused of being ‘anti-comedy’. If they did, I’m sure they would double down on Youtube and cite Charlie Chaplin and Monty Python as good examples of comedy in order to dispel the ‘anti-comedy’ position. Similarly no-one gets accused of being ‘anti-wildlife’ or somehow ‘speciest’ for hating on the Ewoks.

The problem with dismissing any comparison of Rey to action heroines is that Rey is portrayed as an action heroine, irrespective of whatever supposed emotional undercurrent is intended. The bare fact is that Rey goes around kicking everyone’s ass without breaking a sweat. Therefore it has to make sense both in the narrative and the canon as established. For many fans it simply doesn’t.

I haven’t seen any of Thor’s content beyond the above example, but I thought his position was entirely reasonable in this instance. And I certainly didn’t come away from it thinking that he has issues with women or is putting out cheap clickbait.

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I like your Jar Jar/Ewok examples Shopping Maul, but I also don’t think it is fair to equate issues of gender with “anti-comedy” or “anti-wildlife”.

I understand fans wanting Rey to be more flawed/vulnerable. While I don’t think Rey is badly written, I do think the male writers might’ve been a little afraid to emphasize Rey as a flawed individual more than they did. Maybe Kennedy or Hart were able to give some input on her character? I don’t know.

I mean, I think it was there. For example, the TFA deleted scene where Unkar Plutt confronts Rey in Maz’s Castle. She tries to attack Unkar, forgets the gun’s safety, and is pretty defenseless until she is rescued by Chewie.

But I think things like Rey’s combat and piloting skills are set up based off what we are shown and told in the first act of TFA, having to survive on her own and her telling us she is a pilot.

I think Kylo Ren’s loss at the end of TFA is set up fairly well, showing Kylo Ren being heavily injured and him not wanting to kill Rey.

I felt Rey barely scathed through the Praetorian guard fight, barely managing to kill two guards, while Kylo killed four and at one point took on three at once. Rey’s super sweaty at the end of that fight, haha!

I do get some things, like Rey lifting all of those rocks at the end of TLJ, but I also think our sense of how the Force works has been warped overtime, and they way a lot of people see the Force, even myself, hasn’t been an accurate interpretation.

I don’t think Thor is a bad person, and I don’t think he is sexist. I know a lot of people do, but I don’t equate every person who criticizes Rey is sexist. I think that can go both ways though, where a defender might try to point out a person’s unintentional biases, and that person reacting because they think they’re being called sexist.

But I do think his videos are clickbait, even if he isn’t the worst offender when it comes to this type of content. To me the thumbnail is the standard controversial attention grabber.
Which this kind of stuff, to me, perpetuates the discussion devolving from a fair debate into vitriol.

It just feels like none of these YouTuber’s feel responsible for the atmospheres they generate.

Also, I do think Dom makes a good point. I think the divide has put a lot of people into stubborn positions. With a lot of Reylo’s, they are so adamant on their theories on the Saga’s conclusion that I could imagine the love/hate positions flipping if Rey killed Kylo in the end or something like that. Because at this point they are set on what they think Star Wars should be, much like how a lot of predominantly male fans have been since this trilogy started.

Again, not saying either position is right or wrong, just wish discussions had a little bit more nuance. I think it is fair to say Rey isn’t a perfectly written character while also still being able to enjoy her character and her story so far.

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joefavs said:

RogueLeader said:

At least they actually have fun watching these movies, and their conversations are generally positive.

This. When your relationship with Star Wars consists largely of railing against Star Wars, you’re doing Star Wars wrong.

I disagree.
Take for example the case of the heavy criticism against the prequels and the OT Special Editions, I’d argue it’s not the fans doing Star Wars wrong, it’s the producers literally doing Star Wars wrong.

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RogueLeader said:

^^Agreed, joe!

I don’t know. At least growing up I was oblivious to the prequel bashing. I was able to enjoy the movies outside that bubble for the most part. I hope kids nowadays aren’t having that problem, like being told they’re wrong for liking these new movies.

I haven’t come across anyone saying someone is wrong for liking the new movies.
With that said, people in general have been criticized for liking things for the longest time.
Star Wars is part of nerd culture and things like sci-fi and comic books have always had a stigma attached to them. Even romance novels have a stigma attached to them.
Then you have Marvel vs. DC where fans young and old argue about which side is better, and how the other film universe sucks.

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And George Lucas was the one who spearheaded the Special Editions and the Prequels. People back then wanted George’s head on a pike, but now people long to have George back and suddenly appreciate his “genius”.

So were the fans wrong then to criticize him enough to make George want to sell the franchise and not make his own sequel trilogy? Fans are quick to talk about how they miss George, but are so quick to forget who ran him off in the first place. If we were being unfair to George then, how can you tell me with any certainty that people aren’t being unfair to Kathleen Kennedy and Lucasfilm now?

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Voss Caltrez said:

I haven’t come across anyone saying someone is wrong for liking the new movies.
With that said, people in general have been criticized for liking things for the longest time.
Star Wars is part of nerd culture and things like sci-fi and comic books have always had a stigma attached to them. Even romance novels have a stigma attached to them.
Then you have Marvel vs. DC where fans young and old argue about which side is better, and how the other film universe sucks.

I don’t mean people saying “It is wrong for you to like the new movies.” But I think people trying to say these movies are objectively bad is a form of gatekeeping.

Haha, that is true! I guess that is a weird part of nerd/geek cultures, although I know it isn’t exclusive to us, either.

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Me, personally, I like Rey as a character.
After seeing an unlikable Anakin and a dull Obi-Wan in the prequels, Rey is a breath of fresh air.
She wants desperately to find her place, to belong, to find her parents.
She’s likable, charismatic, and funny.

I don’t have a problem with Rey specifically, but more just the overall writing of The Force Awakens.
I think it has less to do with Rey being a woman, and more to do with the fact that the producers just want to give fans the obligatory starship dog-fights and lightsaber battle.

Rey and Finn are able to skillfully outmaneuver the New Order’s starships, but also shoot down experienced fighter pilots. It’s “explained” merely with Rey and Finn themselves acting surprised. “Have you ever done that before?” “No!” “Me either!”

Then we have to have the obligatory lightsaber battle, even though Rey has had no Jedi training whatsoever.
So they just have her close her eyes right before the fight, so audiences can see her using the Force to download Jedi lightsaber dueling skills.

For me, it seemed rushed.
I didn’t have a problem with the writing for Rey in The Last Jedi. They explained her incredible connection the Force sufficiently enough.

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I love that he goes on about Aliens so much (a movie I love) but then misses how laboured and on the nose the motherhood themes are after Ripley was just a straight edge pro in the original that was written without gender. If you wanted to be really silly about this it would be just as easy to suggest that like Terminator 2 James Cameron can’t help making his leads into simple child bearing stereotypes who must overcome very basic fears to become mothers/heroes.

Yub Nub for life