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"Practical Prequels" video. PT practical effects Discussion

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So I came across this YouTube video called “Practical Prequels - Proof The Star Wars Prequels Were More Than CGI” which is basically a still-image show-reel of the, apparently, many practical effects that were used in the PT. Now some of these weren’t that much of a surprise, such as sets, props, maquettes, etc. but the large amount of miniature effects really surprised me. I knew TPM had some, but I had no idea there were so many in AOTC.
Now maybe this is all old news for some of you, but I was quite surprised by many of these photos. However I still think the PT looks really digital (TPM being somewhat of an exception).
So what happened? Did Lucas cover it all up with CGI? Did all the actuall CGI just draw away our attention? Did it perhaps have something to do with the digital cameras they used back then? Or were the practical effects just not properly utilized in post-production?
Any thoughts?

Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Amazon link to my novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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This has been talked about elsewhere.
I think the uses of quickly dated CGI coupled with the already dated digital camera work and Virtual Backlot practises created an artificiality to the look of the films that only served to point out the badly drawn characters, leaden script and static direction.

TMBTM’s monochrome silent movie edits seem to look more convincing because the lack of colour allows the elements to sit together more realistically and the lack of terrible line delivery and the more brisk editing creates an impression of a better film than the source material.

Similarly the editing of the bad performances and rearrangement of scenes in ONLYYODAFORGIVES Neon Noire edit distracts the viewer from the less than stellar composition of some shots.
It is the story that is most important not the effects but when the characters are not compelling and the direction is flat you only have the furniture to look at and then you notice that the cartoon background characters don’t fit inside the physical models standing in for physical sets filmed on now obsolete digital equipment.

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Well I’m not overlooking the poorly written plot, dialogue, characters, etc. but I had expected practical effects like these to stand out more. I rewatched the Coruscant chase scene a few minutes ago because I saw that a lot of elements in that scene were apparently miniatures. However as you said there was so much CGI added to it, including a lot of digital neon effects that it was almost impossible to see. I had to pause the video to actually see it clearly.
Also there’s something about those old digital cameras that make even the real stuff look fake.

I still find it very interesting though. Makes me wonder what the fan-editors could do with the raw-footage.

Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Amazon link to my novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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The point I’m making is if you aren’t compelled by what the characters are doing you look at where they are doing it more.
There a plenty of duffly composed shots in the OT but you don’t notice so much because the characters and what they are doing is compelling enough to let them slide.
Very few people notice the sometimes rather nifty designs and sets in terrible movies.

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Bingowings said:

The point I’m making is if you aren’t compelled by what the characters are doing you look at where they are doing it more.
There a plenty of duffly composed shots in the OT but you don’t notice so much because the characters and what they are doing is compelling enough to let them slide.
Very few people notice the sometimes rather nifty designs and sets in terrible movies.

Sure, I get what you’re saying. But I’m the kind of person who tends to pay attention to the special effects while watching a movie and I had never even assumed that there were so much practical in the PT. Like I previously mentioned, I did notice a lot in TPM, but I’ve always assumed that the effects AOTC and ROTS were almost entirely CGI.
But yes, plot has a huge impact on what you notice, as well as what you manage to overlook.

Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Amazon link to my novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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John Doom said:

Poor grading decisions may had affected their on-screen look too (too much contrast, picture too dim, cyan and magenta over-saturated…)

That was another I possibility I considered as well. Poor colour grading on practical effects, and films in general, is one of my biggest complaints about films made in the past two decades. It just makes everything look so fake.

Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Amazon link to my novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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There was a lot more green screen and CGI work used in TFA than is generally noticed but the characters are more compelling (even if the plot isn’t). And the integration is more subtle (most of the time).

Stylistically though you could take a good fanedit of the PT and ran TFA next they would sit quite well next together as 21st Century films.

The only real impediment would be the digital camera work on Ep2 and Ep3.

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Bingowings said:

There was a lot more green screen and CGI work used in TFA than is generally noticed but the characters are more compelling (even if the plot isn’t). And the integration is more subtle (most of the time).

Stylistically though you could take a good fanedit of the PT and ran TFA next they would sit quite well next together as 21st Century films.

The only real impediment would be the digital camera work on Ep2 and Ep3.

I agree.
(It would be nice though to get to see the PT with less CGI and digital colour-grading added to all the miniatures.)
Also shooting TFA on film did a lot in my opinion to help cover up a lot of the CGI (digital has improved a lot since the PT obviously, but I still think it helped). Just the fact that the actors, as well as what is actually practical, stood more out as real. This is why TPM works best for me (among the PT) despite the terrible writing and annoying characters, it just feels more real than AOTC and ROTS because of the way it was shot and the more obvious practical effects. TFA of course knocks all the PT films out of the park, despite being full of CGI (maybe even more than TPM?), because, as you said, the characters are much more compelling and likable.

Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Amazon link to my novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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It’s the same thing that happened with The Thing remake in 2011, they built practical references that were fully capable of being used as they were, and then they CGI’d over them.

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ZkinandBonez said:
TFA of course knocks all the PT films out of the park, despite being full of CGI (maybe even more than TPM?), because, as you said, the characters are much more compelling and likable.

Hard to know for sure without real stats but I’d wager more or less the same amount, with TPM having more in-your-face unnecessary CGI stuff like Jar Jar (TFA had Maz and Snoke but they were only in a few scenes each where as Jar Jar is all over the place), the Planet Core sequence (TFA had the Rathtars but they were integrated into a practical set [and the scene was much shorter!]), and random CGI porn on Coruscant and the pod racer introductions. It’s funny because Lucas talks in From Star Wars to Jedi about how sci-fi directors always make the mistake of spending film time showing off the amazing sets and locations they’ve created just because they’ve spent a lot of time actually making them, but really they should be getting on with the story and letting the setting speak for itself. This mantra is definitely followed in the OT and TFA but not at all in the PT.

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DominicCobb said:

It’s funny because Lucas talks in From Star Wars to Jedi about how sci-fi directors always make the mistake of spending film time showing off the amazing sets and locations they’ve created just because they’ve spent a lot of time actually making them, but really they should be getting on with the story and letting the setting speak for itself. This mantra is definitely followed in the OT and TFA but not at all in the PT.

You know the more I read stuff like this I start to wonder what happened to Lucas in the 90’s. He really has a great track record of contradicting himself.
It also kind of ironic on how he used the PT to show off all the CGI while he did all he could to not show off the practical stuff. It’s almost as if it was done on purpose.

Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Amazon link to my novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

It’s funny because Lucas talks in From Star Wars to Jedi about how sci-fi directors always make the mistake of spending film time showing off the amazing sets and locations they’ve created just because they’ve spent a lot of time actually making them, but really they should be getting on with the story and letting the setting speak for itself. This mantra is definitely followed in the OT and TFA but not at all in the PT.

You know the more I read stuff like this I start to wonder what happened to Lucas in the 90’s. He really has a great track record of contradicting himself.
It also kind of ironic on how he used the PT to show off all the CGI while he did all he could to not show off the practical stuff. It’s almost as if it was done on purpose.

“Almost”?

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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ATMachine said:

ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

It’s funny because Lucas talks in From Star Wars to Jedi about how sci-fi directors always make the mistake of spending film time showing off the amazing sets and locations they’ve created just because they’ve spent a lot of time actually making them, but really they should be getting on with the story and letting the setting speak for itself. This mantra is definitely followed in the OT and TFA but not at all in the PT.

You know the more I read stuff like this I start to wonder what happened to Lucas in the 90’s. He really has a great track record of contradicting himself.
It also kind of ironic on how he used the PT to show off all the CGI while he did all he could to not show off the practical stuff. It’s almost as if it was done on purpose.

“Almost”?

Well it’s still technically there, and you can see it if you look closely enough. And he did after all pay for it. Kind of a weird thing to do if you never planned to use it. And he did gradually use less of it for each PT film that he made.

Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Amazon link to my novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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I do think that TPM is still a pretty good-looking movie as far as effects go, but AOTC and ROTS just look cheap and ugly. For example, the set in AOTC that Yoda fights Dooku in was real but it still looked fake. Also, a lot of the miniatures for AOTC and ROTS were digitally altered and filled with fake-looking CGI crap. I’ve never felt that the practical effects were completely absent from the PT, but rather that they were over reliant on CGI.

The Person in Question

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I recently found this video from behind the scenes of ROTS and I must admit that I was once again thoroughly impressed by all the amazing animatronics and make-up effects that Lucas decided to not show in the finished film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krNvSGdN2Wg
Skip ahead to ca. 2:20 to see the animatroics.

(Btw, I first found this video with a fake TFA title and thumbnail. It was one of those attempts at refuting OT fans by showing them that there actually were practical effects in the PT. It even threw in a “Jar Jar Binks Sith Lord” for good measure.)

Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Amazon link to my novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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See, I never found that he emphasized the special effects in the PT. I always found those three movies to be very fast paced - almost too much so. I can’t think of any scene that should be cut because it is just an FX fest. I really hate the droid factory scene in ATOC, but that is because it is cliched and badly done, not because it is full of effects. The shots are more dynamic than the OT, but I don’t find that there are too many effects. The OT are filled with matte paintings as well as other FX. I do find the story in the PT to be less compelling than that OT, but I think that has to do with how much of a downer the entire idea is. The Republic falls, the Jedi are hunted down, the good guys go into hiding. None of that really makes for great story telling. And he pulled the same shenanigans as he did in the OT by changing the story here and there as he went. And did he fix any of that in the SE? Not one bit. I have been aware of how much practical effects were used in the PT. My guess is as to why it looks more CG is that all the compositing was done digitally, lending a digital look to the finished product even though only some of it was digitally created. When you look at the sets that were pure CG, they tend to be in the background of some character driven scenes, such as the duel with Darth Maul in TPM.

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People get too hung up on CGI vs practical. Practical does not guarantee a good effect just as CGI is not necessarily bad. Some of the best effects I’ve seen have been CGI and some of those are in TPM itself. But each approach you might take to an effect has different limitations and not respecting those limitations is what causes an effect to look bad.

One thing to recognize is that interaction between CGI and the real world is very difficult. Another is that surfaces and lighting good enough to fool the eye is also incredibly difficult. Especially organics are hard no matter if you try and fake it with silicon, rubber and wax or with computers. Max Rebo and CG Yoda are equally bad in my view because neither of them convinces you that there is a real character on the screen. And filling the screen with so many full CG characters like Jar Jar draws a lot of attention to the fact that a big part of what you’re seeing is fake. They do not and for the most part cannot integrate with the shot in a convincing way. A movie like Jurassic Park overcame this limitation by also having animatronics to fill the gaps left by the CGI.

The other thing is that integration of foreground and background is difficult even if those elements are a set and a miniature. Poor compositing plagues optical approaches just as much as it does digital. Matte paintings can look fake just as well as CG backgrounds can. Think of OUT cloud city. The overuse of blue screen backgrounds is the real culprit. When nearly every single shot breaks down because of a combination of poorly integrated backgrounds and poorly integrated characters the illusion is quickly broken. Even if the set is itself not bad.

A slip up here and there in the OT is more innocuous because the elements that are front and center to your attention works much better. Yoda convinces, and so does the Dagobah set and mattes. The reality of the Falcon set and the hallways of cloud city diverts you from the fakery of the backgrounds. The illusion is completed because key characters like Chewie and C-3p0 work, where characters like CG Yoda and CG Jar Jar do not.

And at the end of the day while CGI has the potential to look like it does in JP, Zilla 98, TPM etc. It doesn’t for the most part. And especially not in II and III, where the low effort put into the CG elements stands out like a sore thumb and taints the entire image even if there are decent practical effects in it.

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The SE version of Cloud City still looks fake to me, especially since ILM couldn’t be bothered to add in those fancy new windows in any of the reaction shots when Leia et co. first meet Vader.

Where’d that plate glass window go?! It was there five seconds ago! ;D

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”