ROTJ is the best Star Wars film... discuss! — Page 18

Bingowings said:

Your opinion seems to be putting every last wing in the air a moment of desperation is silly, indeed sillier than...

See what you just did there? You just assumed that they had more fighters than pilots. It is just your opinion (which is not very logical). And my opinion is that, logically, rebels had pilots in reserve. Picking Luke over them is the silly thing here. Much sillier than picking C3PO.

imperialscum said:

Bingowings said:

Your opinion seems to be putting every last wing in the air a moment of desperation is silly, indeed sillier than...

See what you just did there? You just assumed that they had more fighters than pilots. It is just your opinion (which is not very logical). And my opinion is that, logically, rebels had pilots in reserve. Picking Luke over them is the silly thing here. Much sillier than picking C3PO.

WHY would they send Luke instead of other trained pilots who would be left just standing around? THEY WOULDN'T! It's supposed to give the audience the idea that the desperate Rebels have so few resources that they will take anything/anyone they can get.

ray_afraid said:

imperialscum said:

Bingowings said:

Your opinion seems to be putting every last wing in the air a moment of desperation is silly, indeed sillier than...

See what you just did there? You just assumed that they had more fighters than pilots. It is just your opinion (which is not very logical). And my opinion is that, logically, rebels had pilots in reserve. Picking Luke over them is the silly thing here. Much sillier than picking C3PO.

WHY would they send Luke instead of other trained pilots who would be left just standing around? THEY WOULDN'T! It's supposed to give the audience the idea that the desperate Rebels have so few resources that they will take anything/anyone they can get.

And that is exactly what is illogical and silly about this thing. It is either they had pilots and picked Luke over them or they didn't have pilots which is just as silly. Even if they had more ships than pilots initially, they would have trained them.

And please don't come up with some excuse like "they just got the X-wings that day and didn't have time to train pilots". It will just make the whole thing even sillier than it is.

Woah.. Didn't realize this topic had already claimed two pages..

ray_afraid said:

Woah.. Didn't realize this topic had already claimed two pages..

Haha. Well it is a pointless discussion anyway, I am not actually bothered about these things (i.e. Luke selected to fly X-wing etc.). I just enjoy seeing Bingo's double standards when it come to ROTJ and ANH/ESB. Strange fetish, I know. :)

Bingowings said:

The fighters are clearly from the Republic era so it's possible they were salvaged in bulk.

Biggs proves they are trying to recruit pilots so it makes sense that they could end up with more ships than pilots.

As I said. This is invalid argument since the recruited pilots would train new pilots (if you apply logic, that is).

It's all invalid really as it's not explicitly explained in the film, so It's up to the viewers imagination to an extent... from a certain point of view..

I just choose to believe the path that makes sense as opposed to one that breaks the movie for no reason.  ; )

Bingowings said:

imperialscum said:

Bingowings said:

The fighters are clearly from the Republic era so it's possible they were salvaged in bulk.

Biggs proves they are trying to recruit pilots so it makes sense that they could end up with more ships than pilots.

As I said. This is invalid argument since the recruited pilots would train new pilots.

Eventually yes but that would take time unless they have already been trained on similar craft like Biggs and Luke.

Lol don't stick Luke in the same pot. Luke was "trained" on "crop duster" while Biggs was trained at military academy.

It would take time but they were hiding and had plenty. The trainees had the opportunity to train directly on X-wing (if they really had huge supplies of them as you suggest). So even a few days in X-wing is better than a childhood in a "crop duster". Yes?

Bingowings said:

Yes but both know their way around the crop duster and the military trained chap is convinced Luke can handle the ancient star fighter.

You seem to assume they have a like with like supply of personnel.

It's a repressive regime recruiting people may be more difficult than obtaining old ships and much of those personnel would be trained as ground troops, technicians or for operating fleet ships (which may be less of the same skill set than flying a T-16).

You just assume X-wings are "ancient". I think they are cutting edge.

My assumption concerning personnel is based on the information that the film offers. It is made quite clear that Alliance is very popular. Even a farm boy on Tatooine has heard of it and is fond of it. So it is fair to assume they didn't have trouble with recruitment.

Bingowings said:

If they are cutting edge why don't the Imperials fly them?

There is actually an explanation for that in EU. But you can stick to the film to get the explanation. Rebels had some powerful supporters (Leia for example) and the galaxy is big. I don't see why they couldn't develop something in the secret.

Let me throw you another bone since I think this one is worn out. :)

You know, I think Han loved C3PO. Besides picking him in ROTJ, the crucial evidence of that is in ESB. He actually for some very illogical reason bothered to pick him up on Hoth when he could have just left him there. He even came back and opened the door for him. :D

Bingo, you're assuming that the Imperials have total control of starfighter design and production in the galaxy.

Wow this has gotten lively today! The bit I put in brackets as a side note about Luke having not flown an X-Wing has been focused on.

Luke flying his skyhopper through the strong winds and gravity of Tatooine with canyon walls as points of refrence would leave him ill equiped to fly a Starfighter in 3Dimensional space with no point of refrence. However his experiences in Beggar's canyon would be ideal for the trench run if he somehow managed to get his X-Wing to the trench.

But my original main point hasn't been addresed...

Ryan McAvoy said:

And in the original 1977 film where Luke is leading the trench run with two much more experienced pilots as his wing men is totally fine? Luke leads the trench run because he is the hero that we are all rooting for. It makes no sense logically but it feels so right.

Why is Luke automaticaly leading Wedge and Biggs, who are we assume more experienced starpilots. Even if we believe they've been in the rebellion for just a day longer than Luke, it's still longer than the hour Luke's been there.

Bingowings said:

He leads the run through Force of will.

Wedge and Biggs are both clearly lacking in confidence after the death of so many comrades

You are imagining things that aren't in the film to cover over the flaws (Not that I give a toss about those flaws myself). Luke leads the run because Red Leader says...

"Luke take reds 2 and 3, wait up here for my signal to make your run"

Hang on?!? A minute ago Red Leader was questioning Luke's ability to fly an X-Wing and is only reasured about his abilities when Red3 (Biggs) tells him he's okay. You have to assume he trusts Biggs' opinion from past missions, otherwise he'd be asking Biggs the same question. Then he's putting Luke in charge of Red3, a man he trusts?!?

And of course you are assuming that hanger bay exposition scene is in the film. Because for the first 20 years of Star Wars it wasn't. Unless you are saying that the SE is the definitive SW?*

*(;-) joking... thems fightin' words!)

All that aside, my general point is ROTJ has illogical things and so do the other two films. Lando saying the line...

"Someone must have told them about my little maneuver at the Battle of Taanab"

...is all the info we need in ROTJ, just as Luke saying...

"I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home, they're not much bigger than two meters"

...is all we need in ANH to establish his pilot credentials.

It is established in the EU that the X-wings were cutting edge, while the Y-wings were older ships. Though I think it would make more sense if they were both older models, it doesn't make much difference either way. The point is made that there are probably more ships than pilots.

In the radio drama, Luke does a bang up job in the flight simulator and Red Leader recognizes this. It's not the best explanation, but it's probably the best retcon that can be made here. In fact the scene where Red Leader questions Luke's ability to fly the X-wing makes this explanation rather awkward, so let's forget about the Special Editions for right now.

I think as a kid, I always just thought the X-Wings were like Spitfires and Y-Wings were like Hurricanes. Both were important parts of the (Star)war effort but one was slighty newer and more advanced.

Not so sure about ROTJ's A-wings and B-Wings. I guess they were newer fighters developed since the battle of Yavin. What the EU says on the matter is of no concern to me.