ROTJ is the best Star Wars film... discuss! — Page 12

It is impossible to compare films by any objective measure because there is none (well maybe there is a budget/profit ratio which doesn't really help us here). Films are an art and they are completely up to individual opinion. By far the best reference we have are actually IMDb scores which are generalisation of large amount of opinions.

Looking at ROTJ score, it is at 75. place (within top 100 all-time). That pretty much tells you that people think it is a pretty damn great film. So if you say it is an average your opinion deviates considerably.

DominicCobb said:

Return of the King. And there are 11 guys named Oscar who can back me up on this one

Oscars are basically a generalisation of opinions of a few people. In that respect IMBd score is at least 1000 times more valid. Note that I am not arguing about ROTK greatness, I am just pointing out the worthlessness of Oscars.

imperialscum said:

By far the best reference we have are actually IMDb scores which are generalisation of large amount of opinions.

Looking at ROTJ score, it is at 75. place (within top 100 all-time). That pretty much tells you that people think it is a pretty damn great film. So if you say it is an average your opinion deviates considerably.

That IMDB Top 250 is surprisingly solid, a few things I'd take issue with here and there but generally a respectable list. A lot less crazy "WTF is that doing there?!?" entries than most movie lists. It says it is based on...

The formula for calculating the Top Rated 250 Titles gives a true Bayesian estimate:

 weighted rating (WR) = (v ÷ (v+m)) × R + (m ÷ (v+m)) × C 

where:

• R = average for the movie (mean) = (Rating)
• v = number of votes for the movie = (votes)
• m = minimum votes required to be listed in the Top 250 (currently 25000)
• C = the mean vote across the whole report (currently 7.0)

for the Top 250, only votes from regular voters are considered.

But in the general user ratings ROTS is rated higher than ROTJ, which was one reason I started the thread. Interesting to note that using the above formula the PT doesn't even feature in the Top 250... which is as it should be.

CO said:

DominicCobb said:

Return of the King. And there are 11 guys named Oscar who can back me up on this one

Return of the King won the Best Oscar more for the accomplishment of the whole trilogy rather then this specific movie as many voters pointed out.  I remember reading in 2001, they would nominate each Lord of the Rings movie for Best Picture, but would only give them one Best Picture Oscar after the 3rd movie.

As for the Academy, their track record on Best Picture movies is laughable for many years.  Forrest Gump over Pulp Fiction, Shawshank Redemption or even Quiz Show?  Dancing with Wolves over Goodfellas?  Shakespeare in Love over Saving Private Ryan?  Ordinary People over Raging Bull?  Chariots of Fire over Raiders of the Lost Ark?  Driving Miss Daisy over Glory, Field of Dreams, or Born on the 4th of July?   I could go on and on......

^This. Oscar thinks he's the bees knees. That guy is the knees of nothing.

To quote Frink: "SHUN!"

Admittedly, I prefer his earlier, funnier movies ;)

TV's Frink said:

CatBus said:

To quote Frink: "SHUN!"

I stole it.

SHUN!

DominicCobb said:

Look, I know my Oscar history which means I know what kind of bullshit it is. But when you're movie wins 11 Oscars (tied for the most ever actually) then IT HAS TO BE GOOD. That's all I'm saying.

Titanic got 11, Forrest Gump got 6, Gladiator and Braveheart got 5.  All were terrible.

I wouldn't say the number of Oscars is predictive of anything but commercial success.  And Shakespeare in Love was better than Saving Private Ryan (although neither deserved to win that year), because the former had some mild entertainment value beyond the first ten minutes.

Is there anyone I didn't manage to piss off with this post?  I'm sure I can do better.

Here's a fun theory:

Since the whole Endor bit was a set-up, what better trap than to present the attackers with something they'd defeated before?

thejediknighthusezni said:

It's a pity they were just too far above it to provide recognition.

Yeah, it's not like they gave Star Wars more Oscars than they gave Annie Hall or anyth... er, okay, it turns out they did.

But showering Star Wars with Oscars like they did doesn't count as recog... er, okay, it does.

What was your point again?  Six Oscars and a Special Achievement Award doesn't count?  They just give six Oscars to every movie that gets made that year? Maybe you thought Star Wars should have swept every single Oscar category?  According to those standards, those dirty elites haven't recognized a single movie EVER!  They are too busy watching opera and eating caviar!

They are so DOWN on Star Wars!  All the Oscars they gave it weren't even real gold I bet!

Bingowings said:

SilverWook said:

Tyrphanax said:

Here's a fun theory:

Since the whole Endor bit was a set-up, what better trap than to present the attackers with something they'd defeated before?

Not to mention deliberately make it look unfinished and vulnerable. That was a touch of evil genius.

Making it actually unfinished and vulnerable (unable to jump into hyperspace when things get too bad, unable to generate it's own shield and playing host to the real Emperor and his 'second in command" and not fakers) was a bit dumb.

I wish there was a good way to visually show that the Emperor's death changes the tide of the battle for supernatural reasons.

CO said:

DominicCobb said:

Return of the King. And there are 11 guys named Oscar who can back me up on this one

Return of the King won the Best Oscar more for the accomplishment of the whole trilogy rather then this specific movie as many voters pointed out.  I remember reading in 2001, they would nominate each Lord of the Rings movie for Best Picture, but would only give them one Best Picture Oscar after the 3rd movie.

As for the Academy, their track record on Best Picture movies is laughable for many years.  Forrest Gump over Pulp Fiction, Shawshank Redemption or even Quiz Show?  Dancing with Wolves over Goodfellas?  Shakespeare in Love over Saving Private Ryan?  Ordinary People over Raging Bull?  Chariots of Fire over Raiders of the Lost Ark?  Driving Miss Daisy over Glory, Field of Dreams, or Born on the 4th of July?   I could go on and on......

or Annie Hall over ANH?  The crackpipe was well used by the academy that night! ;D

ROTJ the best SW film?!  Nah.

1) Dont kill boba fett

2)  make final assault on Imperial city instead of DSII

3) no ewoks and their looney-toons style of fighting.

4) no Luke/leia as siblings

For starters, if these things happen I'd have to say that ROTJ competes with ANH and ESB.

*Delete *

Hoth-Nudist said:

2)  make final assault on Imperial city instead of DSII

I am afraid that would make it dumb, cheap and very "ordinary".

imperialscum said:

Hoth-Nudist said:

2)  make final assault on Imperial city instead of DSII

I am afraid that would make it dumb, cheap and very "ordinary".

Wasn't one of the reasons they didn't do the Imperial Capital world was because it would have been too expensive?

I think the Death Star 2 would have worked much better if it was demonstrably more powerful than the first one and more difficult to destroy. You know, like the people building it learned their lesson from the first one, and made it so that only a direct, large scale assault could take it down. I'm thinking something along the lines of Dodana's first plan for destroying the original Death Star by ramming capital ships into it.

Alternately, They could have Luke decide to sneak onboard the Death Star and make his way to whatever room constituted a "bridge", where he would meet Darth Vader, who was promoted after Tarkin's Death. It turns out that Vader was serious in his plot against the Emperor, and now he is finally in position to end the Emperor's reign of terror. He takes control of the Death Star and sets it on course for the Imperial Capital planet, and Luke must decide whether to kill Vader, attempt to turn him from the Dark Side, or simply allow Vader to annihilate an entire planet in order to destroy the Emperor.