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The "original crawl" on the new DVD is NOT the original crawl! Screenshot inside! — Page 6

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Welcome to the forums.
Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
the news that the upcoming DVD release has been falsely advertised is very sad. I found the evidence in this thread to be quite convincing that the crawl will most likely be a lame re-creation. In any event, I would be one of those who would recognize original '77 sound effects and such ... and so the 1993 audio mix would reek of false advertising to me anyways.
The "Theatrical" Manhunter DVD is not truly theatrical there are a couple of slight changes in it. The "uncut" versions of Last House on the Left are still missing footage. Any movie with 5.1 sound, by definition, cannot have the theatrical soundtrack. Either it has been up-mixed, or down-mixed. Any movie shot on film and shown on a digital medium, by definition, cannot be the theatrical version. No home-video version can be. Any digital movie, not shown at it's theatrical resolution (which of course in many cases is a 35MM print) by definition isn't the theatrical version.

Movies are prepared for different environments and they have to continue to be prepared for this. The sound changes, as far as I'm aware, were all part of the original soundtrack - in one theatrical release, or another. The video changes are actually none - except for the opening crawl. As I said even Manhunter has never had it's true Theatrical version released, they changed parts of the video for home-video (which is fine - it's not like they re-shot parts of the movie and added in big-budget effects to beef-it-up). How people can keep whining about the soundtrack, simply is beyond me. The 5.1 mix for the Terminator was far less true to the original audio then the SW audio mixes (up until 1993). Now I know you might say "well yes, but they put the mono track on there too" - well they didn't for OUR domestic release . In shot: the september "OUT" DVD's will be no further from the theatrical version then most movies. Keep in mind that I refuse to purchase the tampered Indy trilogy - I consider that tampered, I don't consider the Sep release tampered.

The crawl will not be a digital re-creation, anyone who thinks otherwise is letting their own speculation get one over on them.
Some were not blessed with brains.
<blockquote>Originally posted by: BadAssKeith

You are passing up on a great opportunity to makes lots of money,
make Lucas lose a lot of his money
and make him look bad to the entire world
and you could be well known and liked

None of us here like Lucas or Lucasfilm.
I have death wishes on Lucas and Macullum.
we could all probably get 10s of thousands of dollars!
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And the loyal fans of Terminator were understandably upset. Personally i prefer the 5.1 mix of Terminator but i would be mad if the original was not included. Superman fans have been up in arms for the last five years because of that films new 5.1 mix. Manhunter is an extremely cult film, as is Last House on the Left, and hence the fan outcry is not heard because they are so few in number. Star Wars is the most popular motion picture ever made--therefore the fan outrcry will also be the loudest of any movie ever made, which certainly seems to be the case.
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Originally posted by: borisKeep in mind that I refuse to purchase the tampered Indy trilogy - I consider that tampered, I don't consider the Sep release tampered.

Why do you consider the Indy trilogy to be tampered? Because they erased the snake's reflection from the plexi?

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"The "Theatrical" Manhunter DVD is not truly theatrical there are a couple of slight changes in it."

The biggest change being the constant omission of the "Blwo the sick fuck out of his shoes" line that never seems to make it in an American release, which would explain why I bought the Japanese release.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Originally posted by: Mielr
Why do you consider the Indy trilogy to be tampered? Because they erased the snake's reflection from the plexi? Yes, that change alone is too much. And then there were all the other "fixed" blue-screen shots, etc.
Originally posted by: zombie84
And the loyal fans of Terminator were understandably upset. Personally i prefer the 5.1 mix of Terminator
The only reason I don't prefer it is because it sounds nothing like the original soundtrack. It's like listening to the Special Edition Star Wars sound-mix. I know it's difficult to make a 5.1 out of a mono soundtrack without compromising - but honestly it just doesn't seem like I'm watching the movie I love.Originally posted by: Mielr
Manhunter is an extremely cult film...
Yes, but as a fan of Thomas Harris, I like to enjoy Manhunter because it's a decent adaptation of his book (unlike the 2002 remake, which is hollywood garbage). Silence of the Lambs is actually the closest to the book in terms of Harris adaptations - but they still changed the ending (none of the four movies have the original ending that's in the book), and they made obvious character changes in Crawford, Starling and Lecter. But with that aside, the small number of changes that have happened to the film haven't really affected it. It apears that they have now released the real Theatrical cut - so my point is now muted - but it's non-anamorphic in America and anamorphic with DTS in Japan (both released by MGM)... figure that one out!
Some were not blessed with brains.
<blockquote>Originally posted by: BadAssKeith

You are passing up on a great opportunity to makes lots of money,
make Lucas lose a lot of his money
and make him look bad to the entire world
and you could be well known and liked

None of us here like Lucas or Lucasfilm.
I have death wishes on Lucas and Macullum.
we could all probably get 10s of thousands of dollars!
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Originally posted by: boris
Originally posted by: Mielr
Why do you consider the Indy trilogy to be tampered? Because they erased the snake's reflection from the plexi?
Yes, that change alone is too much. And then there were all the other "fixed" blue-screen shots, etc.


I agree with boris on this one. That's the same reason I've never attempted to get the Indy set. I find it quite irritating.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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"Personally i prefer the 5.1 mix of Terminator"

Except T's pistol sounds like a popgun when he shoots the first Sarah Connor. Very disappointing. "(

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
Except T's pistol sounds like a popgun when he shoots the first Sarah Connor. Very disappointing. "(
Exactly what I'm talking about! They used the sound of a cannon firing for his shotgun in T2 and in T1 5.1 it's a popgun!
Some were not blessed with brains.
<blockquote>Originally posted by: BadAssKeith

You are passing up on a great opportunity to makes lots of money,
make Lucas lose a lot of his money
and make him look bad to the entire world
and you could be well known and liked

None of us here like Lucas or Lucasfilm.
I have death wishes on Lucas and Macullum.
we could all probably get 10s of thousands of dollars!
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Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Originally posted by: boris
Originally posted by: Mielr
Why do you consider the Indy trilogy to be tampered? Because they erased the snake's reflection from the plexi?
Yes, that change alone is too much. And then there were all the other "fixed" blue-screen shots, etc.


I agree with boris on this one. That's the same reason I've never attempted to get the Indy set. I find it quite irritating.
This I find difficult to understand - after all, it doesn't really change the content of the film - but hey, to each their own.

It just seems like you'll be depriving yourselves of really nice versions of the Indy films for a very minor thing. And I don't expect they will ever release a giant box set with one whole disc with the snake reflection and one whole disc without. That would be silly. Seamless branching allowing you to see the reflection if you want: maybe.

We all draw the line somewhere. Personally, even with the Star Wars films, I'd be fine if they fixed certain things that were glaringly distracting: garbage mattes, matte problems with the Rancor scene, ships flying through other objects, the Emperor's eye slugs, etc. as long as they left other things alone that weren't a problem. For the vaseline smear below Luke's landspeeder, I don't think there's a fix for that. And the way they did it in the SE looked terribly fake. They erased too much of the bottom of the landspeeder and made the ground too far below it.

But I also like to be able to have a version of the films with warts and all. And generally that's what we'll get in September.

--SKot

Projects:
Return Of The Ewok and Other Short Films (with OCPmovie) [COMPLETED]
Preserving the…cringe…Star Wars Holiday Special [COMPLETED]
The Star Wars TV Commercials Project [DORMANT]
Felix the Cat 1919-1930 early film shorts preservation [ONGOING]
Lights Out! (lost TV anthology shows) [ONGOING]
Iznogoud (1995 animated series) English audio preservation [ONGOING]

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To me, a change is a change, and none of them should exist. And the minor problems never really bothered anybody enough to keep it from becoming a successful movie, so there's really no point in changing it twenty years later.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
To me, a change is a change, and none of them should exist. And the minor problems never really bothered anybody enough to keep it from becoming a successful movie, so there's really no point in changing it twenty years later.
But to not buy the Indy trilogy just becasue of a missing reflection (and maybe some cleaned-up matte lines)? It's your choice, but it seems like overkill to me, not to mention depriving yourself of those films on a worthwhile format.

--SKot

Projects:
Return Of The Ewok and Other Short Films (with OCPmovie) [COMPLETED]
Preserving the…cringe…Star Wars Holiday Special [COMPLETED]
The Star Wars TV Commercials Project [DORMANT]
Felix the Cat 1919-1930 early film shorts preservation [ONGOING]
Lights Out! (lost TV anthology shows) [ONGOING]
Iznogoud (1995 animated series) English audio preservation [ONGOING]

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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
To me, a change is a change, and none of them should exist. And the minor problems never really bothered anybody enough to keep it from becoming a successful movie, so there's really no point in changing it twenty years later.


Exactly. Even the X0 trying to get rid of the garbage mattes is wrong, just less wrong than Lucas' changes.

Spaced Out - A Stoner Odyssey (five minute sneak peek)

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Heheh, even I gotta admit I was kinda pleased when they finally fixed Vader's white light saber blade, post-Obi wan duel, in the uber director's perfect final special edition of Star Wars.


But I still prefer any movie with warts and all, if that's the way it was in theaters. Yeah, the snake reflection removal in Indy bugs me .... especially since they left so many other visual errors untouched. (Just as it bugged me in '97 when they bothered to "fix" so much in Star Wars, but left that blatent white saber blade mistake).

If you're going to fix the errors, fix them all. I prefer original every time, but nothing bugs me quite like a selective, half-hearted effort to mend the ways of OOOPS that are endemic to all films.


The original crawl, though is a different animal. It's not simply a matter of whether a re-creation will be visually perfect. It's a matter, in large part, of the music match to John Williams' score. If they don't re-create that precisely, a big part of the emotional wallop of the opening crawl will remain lost. When it comes down to a choice between seeing the opening of Star Wars the way George Lucas conceived it and the way John Williams conceived it .... well, the latter version is infinitely better, imo.
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"Exactly. Even the X0 trying to get rid of the garbage mattes is wrong, just less wrong than Lucas' changes. "

The initial release won't incorporate this.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Originally posted by: SKot
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
To me, a change is a change, and none of them should exist. And the minor problems never really bothered anybody enough to keep it from becoming a successful movie, so there's really no point in changing it twenty years later.
But to not buy the Indy trilogy just becasue of a missing reflection (and maybe some cleaned-up matte lines)? It's your choice, but it seems like overkill to me, not to mention depriving yourself of those films on a worthwhile format.

--SKot

I agree. Personally, I never noticed the snake's reflection, so I didn't notice it was missing- LOL! Little mistakes like that -reflections, matte lines, etc., - tend to take me out of the movie when I do notice them, so I prefer it if they're not there.

When I heard about GL doing the SE, I was hoping that they would fix the garbage mattes because they always annoyed me. Nobody is more of a purist than me, but I don't consider that to be an "alteration" since they were never intended to be there in the first place. They did everything they could at the time to try to make them less visible.

However, like I've said before, it's ironic because with all the changes to the films for the SEs, they didn't even fix the matte lines/garbage mattes completely.

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I would be extremely happy if we had SW discs as good as the Indy ones.
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Exactly! And I think you have a point here: instead of talking about technical considerations, we just have to ask for a release of the Original Unaltered Trilogy as good as the Indiana Jones Trilogy DVD release.
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In May I remember seeing screenshots from the "THX WOW" demo dvd. At the time, some people assumed the dvds would probably look like that. What was the source used to create those clips?
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Eh, a thing that bugged me about the Indy discs is you had to buy all of them (just like the last round of Star Wars OT).

I hated having to buy movies I don't like just to get a movie I adore. If there's one (and perhaps only one) thing the September SW DVDs have going for them is that I can buy which one(s) I want, and not any others.

That's pretty moot at this point, since I don't think I'll be buying any of them.
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I think the title of this thread needs to be changed to:

The "original crawl" on the HYPERSPACE TRAILER is NOT the original crawl!

Because that's all we really know, when it comes down to it.

--SKot

Projects:
Return Of The Ewok and Other Short Films (with OCPmovie) [COMPLETED]
Preserving the…cringe…Star Wars Holiday Special [COMPLETED]
The Star Wars TV Commercials Project [DORMANT]
Felix the Cat 1919-1930 early film shorts preservation [ONGOING]
Lights Out! (lost TV anthology shows) [ONGOING]
Iznogoud (1995 animated series) English audio preservation [ONGOING]

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By now, we have all seen the WookieeGroomer rip-off.. I mean the 1977-2004 comparison page on the official site. It does have several shots of the old '77 crawl. Does this contribute to this thread? I'd also be curious to see how the editdroid recreation stacks up against this if anyone has any screen grabs handy.

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Yeah, I just saw that. Except for the same complaint about the timing of the Star Wars logo to the rest of the crawl, it seems very much like the original crawl with the appropriate line breaks and everything. So it's the original or at least some work was done to make it look like the original other than just painting away the "Episode IV: A New Hope" stuff. But I love the caption for the Greedo picture:

"The most talked about change of them all: Han Solo's "Yes, I bet you have," is shortened to allow for an exchange of blaster fire in 1997. It was slightly retimed in the 2004 DVD release."

Don't go into a lot of detail, even though they acknowledge that everyone knows what it's about. The nice little spin here to make it sound positive, "to allow for an exchange of blaster fire."

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.