The Rise of Skywalker: Ascendant (Released) — Page 661

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Arguably, leaving it the way it is creates a lot of questions that I had never considered before. Like, if Leia DID fully complete her training (it being the last night of her training when she quit) why didn’t she simply become a Jedi again when it was clear that Luke wasn’t coming back on his own? Ya know, instead of just being another general?

But that’s exactly it, in the original film, she didn’t retake her Jedi path in all these years because she didn’t want to lose her son. This would also work if she sensed she wasn’t allowed by the Force. But if she just chose to focus on politics, then there’s no reason why she wouldn’t pick it back up after she saw the New Republic fail, even if she hadn’t completed her training it would’ve made sense for her to try and pick it back up. And if you make it so she had so little training that she couldn’t continue on her own, then how could she possibly become Rey’s Master? There’s no way to reconcile that.

DominicCobb said:

Burbin said:

This is mostly just an issue with TROS since there was never any indication in the previous films that Leia had been trained as a Jedi, other than the space walk in TLJ and even that’s a stretch.

It would be an interesting angle if Leia’s decision was portrayed as a failure, but this is supposed to be a hopeful scene, “Leia failed the galaxy and doomed us all by choosing a career in politics” doesn’t fit a scene that is supposed to restore Rey’s spirit. To be fair neither does a premonition of death but that’s why we removed that bit.

I don’t think this dialogue really invites you to think of it as a failure, it’s not really saying anything we don’t already know/suspect about her (since TFA really, because we know she must have made that choice after Luke revealed her potential). Which I think is kind of the goal, it’s maybe a bit much to add some Leia lore (with premonitions or something) when there’s not really any time to explore its implications.

I mean, yeah, the dialogue doesn’t present it as a failure, but it doesn’t take much to come to that conclusion, why did she pick politics when she would’ve been much more helpful as a Jedi? What good did her diplomacy do to the New Republic that was obliterated two movies ago? This movie already added Leia lore by having her training with Luke and teaching Rey, I’m just looking for a way this can be nudged so it aligns with what we saw of her before.

I mean, she wasn’t exactly Rey’s Master. More like a tutor, really, from what we see in the movie.

That actually is why she’s trying to get her to reach out to the past Jedi. She knows she isn’t equipped enough to teach her. She wants Rey to be able to learn from the Force ghosts.

I think that was the original point of “it was the last night of her training” line. It implies Leia was basically at the same level Luke was in ROTJ. She had completed her training, and was a full Jedi in all but name.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

It’s hard to extract “Rey” from this scene because a lot of music is in the center channel. This is beyond my abilities, unfortunately.

That’s why I think the “Rey” should be cut out, full stop.

Burbin said:

DominicCobb said:

Burbin said:

This is mostly just an issue with TROS since there was never any indication in the previous films that Leia had been trained as a Jedi, other than the space walk in TLJ and even that’s a stretch.

It would be an interesting angle if Leia’s decision was portrayed as a failure, but this is supposed to be a hopeful scene, “Leia failed the galaxy and doomed us all by choosing a career in politics” doesn’t fit a scene that is supposed to restore Rey’s spirit. To be fair neither does a premonition of death but that’s why we removed that bit.

I don’t think this dialogue really invites you to think of it as a failure, it’s not really saying anything we don’t already know/suspect about her (since TFA really, because we know she must have made that choice after Luke revealed her potential). Which I think is kind of the goal, it’s maybe a bit much to add some Leia lore (with premonitions or something) when there’s not really any time to explore its implications.

I mean, yeah, the dialogue doesn’t present it as a failure, but it doesn’t take much to come to that conclusion, why did she pick politics when she would’ve been much more helpful as a Jedi?

Well the idea that a Jedi is much more helpful is not really a point of fact. Seems more like Leia sought out Luke when she realized the Resistance wouldn’t be enough to stop the First Order alone. And even if the Jedi were around, they alone wouldn’t be enough either, they needed the Resistance too, and that came from Leia.

What good did her diplomacy do to the New Republic that was obliterated two movies ago?

Again this is a decision we already know that Leia has made going on two movies at this point. Unless the issue is with the specific phrasing of “best serve the galaxy,” I don’t see how this line changes anything.

This movie already added Leia lore by having her training with Luke and teaching Rey, I’m just looking for a way this can be nudged so it aligns with what we saw of her before.

I don’t really see a functional difference between Leia testing out being a Jedi and not even wanting to try to be a Jedi when the result is the same, that for decades she has not been a Jedi.

Leia being Rey’s master doesn’t seem that big a deal. More like she is helping out with her training with what little she knows. Rey calling her master is more out of respect than anything.

BrotherOfSasquatch said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

It’s hard to extract “Rey” from this scene because a lot of music is in the center channel. This is beyond my abilities, unfortunately.

That’s why I think the “Rey” should be cut out, full stop.

What I meant is that by doing that to the center channel, the music quite obviously dips out and then back in. I’m not sure if this is something somebody else has done before on here.

This is definitely a good debate to have, and you can see why Terrio felt he had to make that decision.

On one hand, it gives a clear reason why she didn’t become a Jedi. It also plays into the whole “Palpatine pulling the strings” idea, and like he did with Luke, he may have planted this vision in Leia to prevent her from becoming a Jedi. That can also be a bad thing, though, if it feels like every plot line boils down to “It was Palpatine all along!” It also potentially takes away agency from Leia as a character if her hands were tied because of a vision she had. Though it may be a simpler explanation than one that hinted at Leia just not feeling it was the right path for her. It honeslty could be an interesting premise for a Leia novel: We could get the payoff from ROTJ by seeing Luke train Leia as his first student, but Leia wrestling with the moral dilemma of trying to be both a Jedi Knight and a Senator/politician in the nascent Republic. The Jedi Order and the Galactic Senate were separate entities in the Old Republic. Is it a conflict of interest for her to be both? What would the implications be if she eventually became both a Jedi Master and the Chancellor? Would that be too much power for one person? What would separate her from Palpatine, another Force-user who became leader of the Republic?

These are all interesting questions, and I personally feel like Leia making the choice to become a Jedi solely based on a vision she had takes away from all of those interesting ideas. BUT, how it parallels Anakin’s vision from ROTS is a fair point as well. If this were a novel, I could see it integrating both ideas, with the vision being the final straw for Leia. Maybe it wasn’t an explicit vision of her son’s death, but nebulous dreams of doom. Whether it be personal or on a galactic scale.

Another option would be to leave it vague and allow people to come to their own conclusions.

“Leia had sensed the end of her Jedi path. She surrendered her saber to me and said that one day, she would finish her journey.”

But maybe that wouldn’t be a satisfying answer. You could also have the original on the “no AI lines” audio track, and the new explanation on the alternate one.

If you wanted to make the new line match Leia’s facial expression in the flashback, you could have Luke say something like, “Leia realized it would be a conflict of interest to be a Jedi like our father, and a Senator like our mother.” I like the wording of DZ’s suggestion, but just a thought.

DZ-330 said:

Sounds like the new line works to me then hahaha 😉

yup, second that!

but let’s be honest, it’s gonna be absolutely impossible to please everyone, unless our good friend Hal is motivated enough to make about 50 different takes of Ascendant v4 lmao

RogueLeader said:

Another option would be to leave it vague and allow people to come to their own conclusions.

“Leia had sensed the end of her Jedi path. She surrendered her saber to me and said that one day, she would finish her journey.”

But maybe that wouldn’t be a satisfying answer. You could also have the original on the “no AI lines” audio track, and the new explanation on the alternate one.

This is pretty much how it is in v3. But I’ve literally had a first time viewer tell me that this is really unsatisfying to hear, and I didn’t plant that in his head at all!

I agree, perhaps leave it as v3 in the alternate track, and use the new lines I made for the main track.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

RogueLeader said:

Another option would be to leave it vague and allow people to come to their own conclusions.

“Leia had sensed the end of her Jedi path. She surrendered her saber to me and said that one day, she would finish her journey.”

But maybe that wouldn’t be a satisfying answer. You could also have the original on the “no AI lines” audio track, and the new explanation on the alternate one.

This is pretty much how it is in v3. But I’ve literally had a first time viewer tell me that this is really unsatisfying to hear, and I didn’t plant that in his head at all!

I agree, perhaps leave it as v3 in the alternate track, and use the new lines I made for the main track.

That’s what I was afraid of but it is good to hear that is actually the case from a viewer who is outside these conversations. I agree that the two tracks would be a good compromise.

Hal 9000 said:

“It was the last night of her training. Leia just freaked out for no reason and bailed on it, even though I was a good teacher. She just gave up. But she said that her saber would be picked up again someday by someone who was up to it.”

Lol, yeah the vague option is basically that.

I’m also going to say again I feel it is convenient she happened to have a vision that someone who use her saber in the future. Having Luke say something like, “but she said that one day, she would finish her journey”. Maybe at the time Leia felt she would return to the Jedi path once she finished her political career, not realizing it would be to train her own Jedi student in these circumstances.

Tobar said:

The diplomacy lines hit wrong for me. The Jedi can defend themselves and others sure but they’re not violent by nature. Before the rise of Palpatine the Jedi were negotiators/mediators that were sent out to settle disputes between different parties through non-violent diplomacy.

This new Luke line paints the Jedi as warriors first and that just doesn’t ring true.

True! The Jedi were also agents of diplomacy. So I wonder if it would be better to play up the angle of conflict of interest in being a member of the Jedi Order and the Galactic Senate? Just spitballing here.

Tobar said:

The diplomacy lines hit wrong for me. The Jedi can defend themselves and others sure but they’re not violent by nature. Before the rise of Palpatine the Jedi were negotiators/mediators that were sent out to settle disputes between different parties through non-violent diplomacy.

This new Luke line paints the Jedi as warriors first and that just doesn’t ring true.

It’s not really that Luke’s Jedi were exclusively warriors, but that they were intentionally meant to be distant from the center of the galaxy’s issues so that they didn’t reach a Clone Wars 2.0 scenario. There’s a reason Luke chose a random-ass planet in the middle of nowhere for his new temple.

Leia likes to be right in the middle of things. Luke was probably cautious of that. It’s not that hard to see why this would be an issue.

I didn’t really take “diplomacy” to mean that Luke’s Jedi weren’t diplomatic, just that she wanted to remain a diplomat/politician. If there’s another word to use sure, but I don’t know what.

DominicCobb said:

Burbin said:

I mean, yeah, the dialogue doesn’t present it as a failure, but it doesn’t take much to come to that conclusion, why did she pick politics when she would’ve been much more helpful as a Jedi?

Well the idea that a Jedi is much more helpful is not really a point of fact. Seems more like Leia sought out Luke when she realized the Resistance wouldn’t be enough to stop the First Order alone. And even if the Jedi were around, they alone wouldn’t be enough either, they needed the Resistance too, and that came from Leia.

In TFA both the Resistance and First Order believe that Luke’s return alone would change the tide of the battle, even though TLJ does bring this into question, the fact is Leia could’ve done more against the Fist Order as a Jedi than as a senator. The New Republic failed to take action and the Resistance was a last ditch effort to combat this emerging threat.

What good did her diplomacy do to the New Republic that was obliterated two movies ago?

Again this is a decision we already know that Leia has made going on two movies at this point. Unless the issue is with the specific phrasing of “best serve the galaxy,” I don’t see how this line changes anything.

Before this movie we aren’t given any indication Leia was ever anything close to a Jedi, she seemed to be in the same place we left her in RotJ, naturally in tune with the Force without any formal training, her space walk in TLJ is closer to Luke pulling the lightsaber on the Wampa cave, which he did before any real Jedi training. It would’ve been fine if they stuck to that but in TROS she suddenly had all this Jedi training that she chose to never use, so there needs to be a reason for that. The film decided the reason was that if she picked up a lightsaber her son would die, which is ridiculous, so I think there needs to be something equivalent to replace that.

Burbin said:

Before this movie we aren’t given any indication Leia was ever anything close to a Jedi, she seemed to be in the same place we left her in RotJ, naturally in tune with the Force without any formal training, her space walk in TLJ is closer to Luke pulling the lightsaber on the Wampa cave, which he did before any real Jedi training. It would’ve been fine if they stuck to that but in TROS she suddenly had all this Jedi training that she chose to never use, so there needs to be a reason for that. The film decided the reason was that if she picked up a lightsaber her son would die, which is ridiculous, so I think there needs to be something equivalent to replace that.

I guess I’m having a hard time understanding why you aren’t okay with reverting back to the idea that she didn’t get much formal training, then? We already shot down your point that then she couldn’t have trained Rey - she didn’t really train her, just mentored her and wanted her to reach the past Jedi instead of her.

DZ-330 said:

Good point. How about:

Luke: “I started to train her, but she was reluctant to follow the Jedi Path. Leia felt she could better help the galaxy through the Senate, like our mother once did. She surrendered her saber to me and said that one day, it would be picked up again by someone who would finish her journey. A thousand generations live in you now. We’ll always be with you, but this is your fight.”

“Leia felt she could better help the galaxy through the Senate diplomacy, like our mother once did”?

Easy fix, Senate “passive” diplomacy is very very different from jedi “active on field” diplomacy. And that’s considering old school pre-Empire Jedi, because at the end of the day we really know nothing about Luke’s jedi school teachings and goals…

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Burbin said:

Before this movie we aren’t given any indication Leia was ever anything close to a Jedi, she seemed to be in the same place we left her in RotJ, naturally in tune with the Force without any formal training, her space walk in TLJ is closer to Luke pulling the lightsaber on the Wampa cave, which he did before any real Jedi training. It would’ve been fine if they stuck to that but in TROS she suddenly had all this Jedi training that she chose to never use, so there needs to be a reason for that. The film decided the reason was that if she picked up a lightsaber her son would die, which is ridiculous, so I think there needs to be something equivalent to replace that.

I guess I’m having a hard time understanding why you aren’t okay with reverting back to the idea that she didn’t get much formal training, then? We already shot down your point that then she couldn’t have trained Rey - she didn’t really train her, just mentored her and wanted her to reach the past Jedi instead of her.

We can argue semantics all you want, but the movie is very explicit that Leia is supposed to be training Rey, full stop, I don’t think anyone could watch those opening scenes and come to any other conclusion, she literally calls her Master. And the whole point of that flashback scene is to explain how she could be training Rey, it’s convoluted and messy, but it’s stylistically designed to be that way, and you can’t undo that. Even if you remove being the “last night of her training”, she still needs to have trained enough to be able to teach Rey, otherwise none of it makes sense.

Burbin said:

DominicCobb said:

Burbin said:

I mean, yeah, the dialogue doesn’t present it as a failure, but it doesn’t take much to come to that conclusion, why did she pick politics when she would’ve been much more helpful as a Jedi?

Well the idea that a Jedi is much more helpful is not really a point of fact. Seems more like Leia sought out Luke when she realized the Resistance wouldn’t be enough to stop the First Order alone. And even if the Jedi were around, they alone wouldn’t be enough either, they needed the Resistance too, and that came from Leia.

In TFA both the Resistance and First Order believe that Luke’s return alone would change the tide of the battle, even though TLJ does bring this into question, the fact is Leia could’ve done more against the Fist Order as a Jedi than as a senator. The New Republic failed to take action and the Resistance was a last ditch effort to combat this emerging threat.

It’s not like Leia being a Jedi would have nipped the First Order completely in the bud. Like you say, Luke was supposed to turn the tide of the battle. A battle being fought by the Resistance. Leia created the Resistance through the New Republic. If you’re suggesting the only thing the Resistance accomplished in the end was bringing the Jedi back, I don’t think the films support that. There wouldn’t be a victory at Exegol if not for the Resistance.

Even if you think that the choice Leia made was all for naught, in the end, it was the choice she made, and that’s not really something that we can change about the film. I don’t see how getting a premonition would fix anything. At least in this version she retains the agency in the choice we already assumed.

What good did her diplomacy do to the New Republic that was obliterated two movies ago?

Again this is a decision we already know that Leia has made going on two movies at this point. Unless the issue is with the specific phrasing of “best serve the galaxy,” I don’t see how this line changes anything.

Before this movie we aren’t given any indication Leia was ever anything close to a Jedi, she seemed to be in the same place we left her in RotJ, naturally in tune with the Force without any formal training, her space walk in TLJ is closer to Luke pulling the lightsaber on the Wampa cave, which he did before any real Jedi training. It would’ve been fine if they stuck to that but in TROS she suddenly had all this Jedi training that she chose to never use, so there needs to be a reason for that. The film decided the reason was that if she picked up a lightsaber her son would die, which is ridiculous, so I think there needs to be something equivalent to replace that.

Well, first of all, the new line suggested is saying that she started training, but never finished. To me that would answer your question a lot better. Why didn’t she help with all this training? Well, she actually didn’t have a whole lot.

It almost just seems like you’re going in circles poking holes in everything. It’s a flawed script we’re working with here. Nothing is going to be perfect. If you don’t think her son dying is a good explanation either I’m curious then what you think should be the line, if anything.