The Rise of Skywalker: Ascendant (Released) — Page 447

sherlockpotter said:

Love the enthusiasm, jarbear, but I think you’re overthinking this a little. The Dagger is a glorified plot device.

LOL, oh no, that’s true. I hate this thing they included in the movie. A McGuffin’s McGuffin. Sigh. Hahahah.

Here is why I think this translation could work if we are changing the context of the dagger:

“The path to rebirth begins where our Emperor died. Heir of the Sith, embrace the darkness within. Only to you will this blade tell.”

• “The path to rebirth begins where our Emperor died.” - C-3P0 would/should immediately know this is Death Star II, which remains are on Endor.

• “Heir of the Sith, embrace the darkness within.” - Calls upon Rey to go to the dark and further conflict her in the movie, when she goes into the vault she sees what that darkness would lead to i.e. Dark Rey

• "Only to you will this blade tell.” - The blade will only show the path to the person that is the Heir to the Sith. This could work for Rey Palpatine or Rey Nobody. Rey Palpatine, there is a blood connection to Palpatine. Rey Nobody, only someone who embraces the dark side can use it.

DZ-330 said:

Here is why I think this translation could work if we are changing the context of the dagger:

“The path to rebirth begins where our Emperor died. Heir of the Sith, embrace the darkness within. Only to you will this blade tell.”

• “The path to rebirth begins where our Emperor died.” - C-3P0 would/should immediately know this is Death Star II, which remains are on Endor.

• “Heir of the Sith, embrace the darkness within.” - Calls upon Rey to go to the dark and further conflict her in the movie, when she goes into the vault she sees what that darkness would lead to i.e. Dark Rey

• "Only to you will this blade tell.” - The blade will only show the path to the person that is the Heir to the Sith. This could work for Rey Palpatine or Rey Nobody. Rey Palpatine, there is a blood connection to Palpatine. Rey Nobody, only someone who embraces the dark side can use it.

I mean, it sounds nice in the original context of the film, but aren’t we trying to avoid that? It tells Rey exactly where to look, just based on the inscription. Who needs the physical dagger?

Plus, it adds that extra “Chosen One” element, and I’m still not understanding the value of doing that…? Especially when trying to move these changes to the Rey Nobody version. Why give ourselves extra work on that front?

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Why didn’t [character] just use [plot device] to [do something] in the first place? [Thing] wasn’t needed, and so [Other Thing] was a waste. It makes the characters seem not that bright.

I can’t be the only one to see how potentially problematic these suggested changes are.

That’s what I’ve been saying to most of your arguments, Jar Jar! Haha.

But to answer your question, the idea is that Rey needs to embrace her inner Dark Side in order for the dagger to work, and she only learns that after getting the instructions that 3PO translates from the dagger. If she just immediately decides “Imma use the Dark Side here,” there goes her inner conflict.

Sade, very good point. If this thing was made exclusively for Rey, that’s a whole new can of worms I’d rather not open up.

I had to skim the last two pages super fast in order to chime in before the avalanche continues!

Here’s what I’d like to try:

Dub 3PO with a compelling enough voice and sound design to captivate audiences the world over as we see our neurotic metal friend light up with red eyes and speak the Devil’s words. I’d like to avoid having it be any sort of “chosen one” angle. I suppose that because 3PO says, “The location of the Wayfinder has been inscribed upon this dagger,” it means we can’t do something quite so vague as suggesting that the dagger would direct the bearer to the Wayfinder no matter where it happened to be. Which, unless I’m mistaken, is too bad because that would allow us to ditch the idea that Ochi or somebody MADE the dagger to point to the DSII.

Would it be fully coherent across the film to nix the dagger as having the specific geographical location (Endor, the shore) on it at all? Could it be something like “listen to the dagger in your evil heart and it will take you to wherever the Wayfinder happens to be at the moment”? (If that were so, it would probably seem even more silly that there is a macguffin to get to the macguffin!)

Yeah, I guess we’d still have to have the blade plant Rey at the site of the DSII, but dubbing 3PO could allow us to make the implication more clear than in V1 that she is using the dagger mystically. All in order to remove the kind of dumb compass moment. lol

Among the multitude of issues I have with this movie, the dagger is surprisingly not among them, so I’m just going to make some popcorn and sit this one out.

Hal 9000 said:

I had to skim the last two pages super fast in order to chime in before the avalanche continues!

Here’s what I’d like to try:

Dub 3PO with a compelling enough voice and sound design to captivate audiences the world over as we see our neurotic metal friend light up with red eyes and speak the Devil’s words. I’d like to avoid having it be any sort of “chosen one” angle. I suppose that because 3PO says, “The location of the Wayfinder has been inscribed upon this dagger,” it means we can’t do something quite so vague as suggesting that the dagger would direct the bearer to the Wayfinder no matter where it happened to be. Which, unless I’m mistaken, is too bad because that would allow us to ditch the idea that Ochi or somebody MADE the dagger to point to the DSII.

Would it be fully coherent across the film to nix the dagger as having the specific geographical location (Endor, the shore) on it at all? Could it be something like “listen to the dagger in your evil heart and it will take you to wherever the Wayfinder happens to be at the moment”? (If that were so, it would probably seem even more silly that there is a macguffin to get to the macguffin!)

Yeah, I guess we’d still have to have the blade plant Rey at the site of the DSII, but dubbing 3PO could allow us to make the implication more clear than in V1 that she is using the dagger mystically. All in order to remove the kind of dumb compass moment. lol

Hal, what do you think of my past mockups of removing 3PO reading the specific location on the dagger? Some of us feel that it makes sense still, other people worry that it’s not explicitly clear that this magical dagger, bursting with Dark Side energy, recovered from a Sith cultist, and carved with mythical runes is a significant clue.

But you’re the man in charge. What say you?

Burbin said:

sherlockpotter said:

Well, here’s the tricky thing actually, with the new angle we’re taking with the Dagger, it doesn’t really say the “Location of the Wayfinder” anyway. Personally, I still think Sith Runes are enough of a giveaway to accept that the Dagger is important.

Besides, Rey senses something fishy about the Dagger, so clearly it means more than Ochi’s special knife. How many artifacts, carved with ancient Sith Runes, imbuded with pure Essence of Dark Side, discovered near a confirmed Sith Cultist, are we reasonably going to find?

I guess my question to you would be what are the odds that this one random artifact filled with scribbles happens to be the one thing holding the key to finding that particular thing they’re looking for? And why would 3PO, who is all about the odds, be so excited and sure that it is the one thing they needed if he doesn’t know what it says? Even if we remove the location of the Wayfinder from the inscription, 3PO’s reaction to seeing it wouldn’t make sense unless he knows for sure it IS the clue they were looking for.

“To those it chooses” could work, implying that it’ll only choose Rey if she’s evil enough.

But my question to you would be: what are the odds that our heroes are looking for a clue that will lead them to a Sith Artifact; and then they find a Sith Cultist, who has a mythical blade carved in ancient, unintelligible runes, and Rey can sense oodles of Dark Side energy coming from it.

The question is, what are the odds that this isn’t what they’re looking for? Balance of probability, and all of that. “Darn it, Rey, you were supposed to grab the other mythical Dark Side weapon that the Sith Cultist was hoarding in the cave that was emanating Dark Side energy! Doh!”

Like, seriously, how many Sith Artifacts do you think Ochi brought with him into this cave? They’re not exactly growing on trees, ya know? You said it yourself, 3PO is all about statistics. Statistically, how many magical Sith Artifacts are they expected to find?

EDIT: Okay, okay, okay, what if we could make 3PO say, “This must be the clue Master Luke was after”? Would that alleviate your concerns?

@jarjar I get your points and you are not wrong at all. Especially if you want to keep the “purpose” of the dagger as it is, but just less goofy than the original cut of the movie. Which is already a great step in the right direction.

However, if one of the ideas is to have the dagger appear to be ancient, at least specifically, prior to the events in the original trilogy, having it not be specific to Endor would help sell it. As to whatever it says, I think your thinking that anything that is not specific to the location a la C3PO than it ruins the plot/purpose of it.

I don’t personally think it does if you view it in this context (If the dagger says something more on the lines it will lead you using the dark side, or whatever).

Rey has used the dark side previous, or at least “followed” that part, or at least the “shortcuts that lead to the dark side” in The Last Jedi (and arguably TFA with the final saber battle, though that is debatable and not overt like in TLJ). Rey sees the Dark Side Hole, Luke explains it is strong in the dark side. What does she do? Well, she “dives in” via vision. Even after Luke’s freak out after her doing that … what does Ray do? Well, after, again, knowing it is from the dark side AND PROVIDES INFORMATION/HELP (it was after she did that she talks about not seeing Luke in the Force AFTER taking the vision plunge) she goes back to it for information to help her. In a way, she was using the dark side … for good intentions in her mind. She wanted to learn her parent’s identity. So again, she ‘choses’ to dip into the Dark Side.

So now, flash forward to TROS. Specifically at the confrontation between Palps. Palps reveals she has to kill him to save her friends. Again, taking the short cut (that leads to the dark side) for something she needs (save her friends.) You see the conflict this time since there is an actual cost to her decision. Just think about this. If Ben did not come … what would Rey have done? We don’t know, she may have chosen to kill Palps since it would mean sacrificing herself, but stopping the attack on her friends. But with Ben coming, she chose the right decision (the hard one to team up with Ben to go up against Palps and his guards/knights) to face him.

So now to this dagger, if one was to go the route about it more like using the dark side to lead the person to their desire or way to exegol or whatever. How does Rey know what the dagger does? 3PO translates it. Before deciding anything, FO comes and the plan is to save Chewy after she senses him. When she is on the destroyer, what does she do? Go to the dagger. She has the knowledge that this Dark Side thingy will lead to what she wants/needs. Again, for good intentions to save the galaxy from Palps if she gets the Wayfinder to go to Exegol. From this point, she decides to use it and that is when the dagger begins to speak to her, since she chose to retrieve it and use it knowing she would have to use the Dark Side.

So the dagger leads the person (or who it choses) to what they desire or something like that. So it’s not Orchi’s dagger, but using it to find and kill her parents. It could be revenge. And if you do add the whole “choses” or whatever, can explain why Orchi couldn’t find Rey since it “stopped talking” or whatever.

We already have places and things both sides of the Force are either strong with or contain, so having a special dagger isn’t something too random. The dark side, as previously explained is the person taking short cuts using the force which eventually corrupts the individual. So that is the conflict for Rey. She’s used the dark side before, but hasn’t bore any of the consequences. Is it that bad to use, for good intentions or for good reason? That is the final choice at the end of the movie, which she choses not to do, hence her resolve not to and she is “rewarded” in a sense she finally connects with the Jedi.

EDIT: Yes I know I am over thinking things, just trying to come up with an idea to make the dagger more ancient, powered by the dark which Rey choses to use and why Orchi originally had it. LOL.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

I don’t particularly have an issue with having it be ancient. My problem is letting it show Rey anything up until 3PO has revealed how to use the dagger. After that point, Rey can use it to find it the wayfinder. That isn’t an issue.

So no visions when she first touches it in the cave. That is a bad idea.

EDIT:
Oh was that the idea of having the vision in the cave? I obviously missed that, I was thinking of the "Endor/DSII/Wayfinder of vision AFTER she takes it on the destroyer. If I missed that point from Rogue’s concept, my bad!

I would do the vision when she picks up the dagger at the destroyer, has the vision and gets “snapped out of it” when Kyle says her name.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Wow this makes a whole lot more sense now. Sorry about the misconception.

No problem dude, I’m the king of misconception. Lol! That’s where I like these conversations to really hash it out and think about all the angles! Plus it reveals I missed a point about the conversation on the timing of the vision. Haha! Not every idea works, but thought maybe this could?

(I never get mad or irritated if people disagree, I like the discussion since it always helps me clear stuff up or realize I am missing something! Sometimes I just go on and on to make sure my idea make sense/or is clear-ish … since we know how bad I am at typing. Lol) 😄

^ Sherlock, you talking about having Finn mention Endor while they’re on the way? Yeah, I think that’d be just fine if we go that route.

And it’s all okay if the 3PO dagger idea ends up not working well enough to… work. It’s intriguing at least, but I’m skeptical it could make the dagger thing feel like it was folded into the Wayfinder and feel even more redundant.

Oh god, haha, yeah. So Rey learns about Endor when she picks up the Dagger again while on Kylo’s ship. Whoops, sorry everyone if I added to the confusion!

Also, to build on Jar Jar’s point, I had an idea super late last night that we could maybe color Rey’s eyes yellow right before she gets the vision, to help visually distinguish between “holding” the Dagger and “giving in” to the Dark Side and unlocking its secrets.

And Hal, my initial pitch was to cut down on the idea that 3PO can “translate” the Dagger, but he can’t say that translation. I was thinking just emphasize that he would just tell them, “Well, I know it’s Sith, but I can’t read it.”

Original line removal: https://streamable.com/snti9d
Bonus Rey line removal: https://streamable.com/g624m1

I think that’s what we’re talking about, in part? I feel like we’re having four different conversations about the dagger, and they all overlap slightly.

@jarJar = Yes sir!

Of course, this does mean an overhaul on C3P0 and crew’s conversation about the dagger, but it still can retain the lines of 3P0 does say it was a clue Luke was looking for, as part of his journey looking for stuff, which is why the crew still think it’s important enough to translate.

Let’s just go back to her pulling a compass out of the dagger. That was much better and way more convenient and satisfying!

Hal 9000 said:

^ Sherlock, you talking about having Finn mention Endor while they’re on the way? Yeah, I think that’d be just fine if we go that route.

And it’s all okay if the 3PO dagger idea ends up not working well enough to… work. It’s intriguing at least, but I’m skeptical it could make the dagger thing feel like it was folded into the Wayfinder and feel even more redundant.

The other benefit of this concept of the Dagger being ‘broader’ in purpose is it actually makes it less redundant in the movie. Rey uses the dagger, points to the Wayfinder. She gets it, which then Kylo destroys. So the whole point of it was pretty much … crushed so to speak.

So now that it is a broader thing, as in not solely fixated on the way finder … it’s not so tied to that one thing.