Honestly I used to care less about any of the problems with SW as a whole. I could overlook the Special Edition changes and happily watch the prequels and all that other stuff. So in a way I can appreciate what people love about this stuff from endless force power battles to every minor character being integral to every tiny thing. But times have changed and you have to develop your critical skills sooner or later; that’s life.
Loved the PT when I was a kid, but then grew to hate it.
Used to think ESB was perfect, like everyone else, but now I think it’s overrated.
Used to dislike TLJ cause it didn’t feel like the middle act of a trilogy, but then I adapted the “fuck trilogies anyway” mindset, so now I love it.
And opposite to that; I used to like TRoS for “ending the saga,” and then I developed the “fuck the saga” mindset, so now I hate it.
Well that was quite the rollercoaster.
ALLOL
The one movie I changed my opinion on, over the years, was TLJ. Still, it wasn’t a drastic change, it’s mostly that when it came out, it almost left a sweet taste in my mouth. Almost. I didn’t hate it, I thought it was very middle of the road due to very high highs but mostly average moments and very low lows. I thought the editing was subpar at times, with the movie being way too long (I really felt the runtime) and some very unfortunate 2010s “Joss Whedon” humor, which has no place in Star Wars and made me feel like I was watching a parody sometimes. I seemed to be alone in neither hating nor loving it though, it seemed like it was either one or the other.
Then came the TLJ debates. They were endless, and talking about the movie eventually swung me to the “hate” side, because the people on that side were, in the end, saying lots of things I agreed with. I hate the setting of the Sequel Trilogy, the reset in the status quo for nothing, just because they needed to make a soft reboot of the original movie for nostalgia reasons. I can’t bring myself not to hate TFA. I hate it on principle, and that barrier is seemingly never going to come down. TFA has no heart, no soul, and that unfortunately bled over to TLJ. So I can never fully love TLJ due to the context it’s in, due to how everything around the movie is, due to being a sequel to TFA.
Luckily for me, TLJ is not really about that. In fact almost nothing “story-wise” happened, as in, not a lot you’d put on history books. It’s almost all character stuff, even the big moments. So slowly, over the years, I’ve been softening up on the movie. I eventually came back to my original opinion that it’s okay, and now I love it. It’s not on par with top-tier SW, but it’s pretty damn close, and I’m happy I appreciate it. There’s still stuff it does I don’t like, obviously, but I like almost all of it.
I’m sure this is a common story for people my age (early 20s), I used to be a super fan of the prequels, but that was more out of contrarianism and because I hadn’t really sat down and watched them since I was a kid. I would watch the random scene from them once in a while, but the whole movie at once, never. Revisiting them as an older teenager changed my opinion, and that was a hell of a slap in the face.
If you really dug around in my comments history, I bet you could find 2016 SparkySywer obnoxiously defending the prequels or something like that on here.
Reading R + L ≠ J theories
obnoxiously defending the prequels or something like that
That’s me on occasion even now.
I hate the Disney Channel Live Action Universe
This video: George Lucas King of Wooden Dialogue,
really softened my view on the prequels:
https://youtu.be/S5E-eSdRjXs
Peace is a lie
There is only passion…
This video: George Lucas King of Wooden Dialogue,
really softened my view on the prequels:
https://youtu.be/S5E-eSdRjXs
I hear this sort of argument all the time. “The dialogue was actually bad on purpose, you just don’t understand Lucas’s hidden genius!” Uh, no it wasn’t. If you want to create a believable tragedy, you need to get your audience invested in the characters, and I believe that’s what Lucas was trying to do. He just has no idea how to write convincing dialogue.
My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX
I pin that more on the acting than the dialogue itself, a reason why Christopher Lee and Ian Mcdiarmid almost never seem to have any of the bad lines, comes with their Shakespearean classical training. I buy that Lucas was reaching for a 40s style, which sounds god awful to the ears of most modern audience members, nobody has to like it but it should be understood for what it is, Double Indemnity could make you wince if you’re not used to it.
“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV
Maybe that is why George always had co-writers and people to help him with his weakness for dialog.
He himself would admit to being an overall good filmmaker except for in the area of writing.
He described the process as painful, said he was not a gifted writer like Francis.
He was lucky to have friends like Willard Huyck and Gloria Katz, and to have almost by luck found Lawrence Kasdan to take over scripting of Raiders and Empire.
The process for him is incredibly slow he began writing Star Wars in 1973, and did not finish the script til 1975 or so. Phantom Menace took from nov 1994 to about 1996-97 to be filmable.
The sequel process would have taken him about as long about 2 to 2 and a half years to get the Episode 7 script done, Disney didn’t want to wait and they did not want his story anyway. 2 to 3 years pre production on a new trilogy plus 9 years to get it all done. Disney did their series in half the time.
Was he really GOING for “40s style” dialogue? I mean I always got sort of a 1930s-1940s vibe from the OT (since it was inspired by Flash Gordon and all), including the delivery of the dialogue, but was it (the dialogue) really INTENDED to give off that vibe? I just thought it was a result of his self-admitted inability to write good dialogue.
That might be why fans forgive the OT for its cheesy dialogue delivery, but chastise the prequels for it - the rest of the OT (the original versions at least) has an old-timey feel to it in general due to its drawing from early-20th-Century film, so the dialogue fits right in with that aesthetic. The prequels, on the other hand, have a distinctly modern (by late 90s-early 2000s standards) look sound and feel to them, right down to the digital cameras they were shot on, so the bad dialogue/acting sticks out more.
I hate the Disney Channel Live Action Universe
“It’s not deliberately camp. I made the film in a 1930s style. It’s based on a Saturday matinee serial from the 1930s, so the acting style is very 30s, very theatrical, very old-fashioned. Method acting came in in the 1950s and is very predominant today. I prefer to use the old style. People take it different ways, depending on their sophistication.”
https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2002/may/16/artsfeatures.starwars
It’s supposed to be musical and designed in lyrical tone. Star Wars dialogue with George was always designed to be like old cinema.
And to clear up a couple of misconceptions.
George had nearly all of The Empire Strikes Back written before Lawerence Kasdan polished it up. See J.W. Rinzler’s conversation with Rick Worley for more details.
Harrison Ford may have had misgivings about the dialogue but he did think it worked. He said as much to Time back in 1977. You can see the quote on Mike Klimo’s Instagram.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BW5ZBJogast/?igshid=12uundmrs6kxg
“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas
Even if it’s intentionally awful, it’s still awful.
Reading R + L ≠ J theories
Arch, maudlin, or romantic dialogue only works with charismatic actors and competent direction, often where the actors play archetypal characters. See The Adventures of Robin Hood for that style done to perfection. ANH actually does a reasonable facsimile of this since the characters are properly archetypal (the rogue, the princes, the farm boy, the wizard). The problem is that the prequels have almost none of these elements. The charisma of the actors is buried under robotic direction, and the underlying characters are muddled and pale shadows of their archetypal counterparts in the OT. As such, the stilted dialogue is just another nail in the coffin.
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
I used to get very hardheaded about whether or not I consider something canon, now I just pick my Star Wars and just enjoy what I have.
I’m just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe.
Star Wars has 3 eras: The eras are 1977-1983(pre Expanded Universe), (1983-2014) expanded universe, or (2014- now) Disney-bought version. Each are valid.
Important voice tool:
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1472151/action/topic#1472151
See J.W. Rinzler’s conversation with Rick Worley for more details.
Great interview, thanks for sharing.
George had nearly all of The Empire Strikes Back written before Lawerence Kasdan polished it up. See J.W.
Well that was already known and Rinzler discussed it in detail in his book. Even Kasdan basically confirmed that by saying: “The structure of the story was all there–it was the skeleton for a movie. What was needed was the flesh and the muscle.”
真実
See J.W. Rinzler’s conversation with Rick Worley for more details.
Great interview, thanks for sharing.
George had nearly all of The Empire Strikes Back written before Lawerence Kasdan polished it up. See J.W.
Well that was already known and Rinzler discussed it in detail in his book. Even Kasdan basically confirmed that by saying: “The structure of the story was all there–it was the skeleton for a movie. What was needed was the flesh and the muscle.”
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: George is good when it comes to writing a general story outline, but horrible when it comes to dialogue and character arcs. Kasdan came on and was the guy who really fleshed out the dialogue and characters, as he did with Jedi. Had Lucas gotten Kasdan or someone who was half decent at writing dialouge for the Prequels they would’ve atleast been slightly more enjoyable.
Use the Force, Joh Yowza.
See J.W. Rinzler’s conversation with Rick Worley for more details.
Great interview, thanks for sharing.
George had nearly all of The Empire Strikes Back written before Lawerence Kasdan polished it up. See J.W.
Well that was already known and Rinzler discussed it in detail in his book. Even Kasdan basically confirmed that by saying: “The structure of the story was all there–it was the skeleton for a movie. What was needed was the flesh and the muscle.”
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: George is good when it comes to writing a general story outline, but horrible when it comes to dialogue and character arcs. Kasdan came on and was the guy who really fleshed out the dialogue and characters, as he did with Jedi. Had Lucas gotten Kasdan or someone who was half decent at writing dialouge for the Prequels they would’ve atleast been slightly more enjoyable.
Since Lucas’ draft had around 130 typed pages, I would argue that it was far beyond a general story outline, but it defined the details of individual scenes already. Nevertheless, I definitely agree that Kasdan is a great dialogue writer and made a great contribution. There is a noticeable style difference between ANH on one hand, and ESB and ROTJ on the other. I guess that might be one of the reasons why I have always liked ESB and ROTJ slightly more than ANH.
真実
When I was a kid, I considered the movies canon and all the Expanded Universe material to just be the equivalent of fan fiction. As I got older and heard people frequently praising several of the same stories like Thrawn, I realized I’d probably missed out on a lot of quality Star Wars, so I sought them out and was pleasantly surprised.
My opinion changes? Let’s see.
When I was a kid TESB was my favourite of the OT, but as I found out that it’s pretty much everyone’s favourite SW movie it kinda turned me off of the movie. In my teenage years ROTJ became my favourite, and now I don’t have any preference regarding the OT.
I thoroughly enjoyed the PT when they came out in the cinemas, but it wasn’t until sometime before the premiere of ROTS that I found online how many people were disappointed with them, and while I agree that they’re not as good as the OT, that has not diminished my appreciation for the PT in any way.
When Disney acquired Lucasfilm and announced the Sequel Trilogy I was cautiously optimistic, but I wasn’t the least bit thrilled when J.J. Abrams was confirmed as the director of episode VII, because any movie directed by him has always left me feeling underwhelmed, but gave it a chance based on all the positive feedback, however my suspicions were proven right, because never before has a movie disappointed me as thoroughly as TFA, and it is because of such a massive letdown that I refuse to watch TROS or any movie directed by Abrams.
Apart from the movies, when I first played KOTOR II - TSL, I felt like playing an incomplete game and felt it was lackluster, however many years later a friend told me to seek out something called TSLRCM. So I dusted off KOTOR II, installed the mod and now I consider KOTOR II to be one of the greatest CRPGs of all time.
Finally, there is one Star Wars property where my opinion has changed for the worse, and that is Star Wars Rebels. Over the years I have grown to despise that series for being so sanitized, were the Empire are portrayed as incompetent fools who are thwarted at every turn, and the characters the series focuses on are a bunch of whiney, simpering meatbags. Iconic villains like Maul and Thrawn are wasted, and as previously stated it’s always mission accomplished with (almost) no casualties, thus taking out any tension away. I don’t know how anyone can like this garbage.
See J.W. Rinzler’s conversation with Rick Worley for more details.
Great interview, thanks for sharing.
George had nearly all of The Empire Strikes Back written before Lawerence Kasdan polished it up. See J.W.
Well that was already known and Rinzler discussed it in detail in his book. Even Kasdan basically confirmed that by saying: “The structure of the story was all there–it was the skeleton for a movie. What was needed was the flesh and the muscle.”
My pleasure!
Absolutely. Unfortunately though not many people realise just how much George contributed to it. There’s a lot of misinformation out there.
“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas