Return Of The Jedi - a general Random Thoughts thread — Page 7

Another point, the Rebels didn’t even know Luke was on the Death Star. The only one he told was Leia.
Who’s he having to explain himself too?

oojason said:

imperialscum said:

oojason said:

imperialscum said:

oojason said:

imperialscum said:

oojason said:

Kurtz was also asked to produce Revenge Of The Jedi - which he turned down for the reasons we all know…

That seems extremely unlikely. After falling out with Lucas, it would be ludicrous to think that Lucas would ask him to do anything for him after that.

Like Lucas asking him to stay around until the film was finished? As stated below in your reply to Wook? 😉

I did not want to imply that he was asked to stick around. I implied that they just let him stick around in order not to cause any trouble, like making a complaint to PGA, which could easily doom already fragile situation. 😉

The information that “he was asked to produce ROTJ” only ever came from Kurtz during his interviews (and of course secondary sources that refer to him saying so). I have not seen any other independent source confirming that information. Also, he never specified by WHO he was asked. Maybe by a voice in his head? Unless he was asked by Lucas (which is more or less impossible), it makes the whole thing completely irrelevant.

A ‘voice in his head?’ - no, somebody from Lucasfilm had obviously obviously spoke with Kurtz and offered him Producing work (or credit) on ROTJ - as of 1981, in the official Lucasfilm press release below… to which Kurtz must have agreed to.

This seems like a thing for the public not to question and wonder why he was removed and replaced. Lucasfilm always seemed to have tried to make it look like everything was fine and dandy. We did not even know he was removed until many years afterwards when people investigated behind-the-scenes for books and documentaries. Same goes for many other key figures and events of OT that we had only learned about many years after.

Even if this “Production Consultant” was an actual job (which it was not for sure) instead of just a make-up for the public, it is still by no means any kind of proof that he was offered to actually produce ROTJ. I mean you do not remove a producer in the middle of the film only to then offer him to produce a sequel.

oojason said:

oojason said:

• https://www.jeditemplearchives.com/specialreports/banthatracks/archives/banthatracks11.pdf

^ Bantha Tracks: Issue 11 (official Star Wars Newsletter), dated February 1981, re Revenge Of The Jedi and an official Lucasfilm press release:-

“Gary Kurtz, who produced ‘Star Wars’ and ‘Empire Strikes Back’ will serve as a Production Consultant on ‘Jedi’, while he prepares two of his own projects.”
 

So, not so ‘ludicrous’ as you think or claim, yes? 😉

As to ‘Independent source’? who are you expecting to know outside of Kurtz and high-end Lucasfilm employees that would have know he been offered the job of producing ROTJ? Do we need ‘independent sources’ to confirm Lynch was offered the chance to direct ROTJ, or Cronenberg etc?

The who and the when are irrelevant in the context of Kurtz stating he was asked to produce ROTJ - the statements came the man himself - to which nobody from Lucasfilm has challenged any of them - including George. You believe a professional and highly regarded producer (a job which requires inordinate levels of trust & professionalism) and would make continuous false claims he was offered the producer job for a famous film… when at any time the said employer - or employees - could turn around and deny it? His reputation and credibility would likely be ruined.

In fact, would a be a ‘ludicrous’ thing for Kurtz to claim… if it was not true, yes? 😉

Like said above, Lucasfilm extremely rarely challenged anything or anyone in order to keep things appear fine and dandy. In his later interviews, Kurtz seemed very resentful of his removal, so it would not surprise me if he made it up. After all, he did use ideas from Lucas’ pre-SW drafts and tried to present them as if they were ROTJ draft (when it actually did not exist in any form at the time). Also, he tried to claim that he left because he did not like the direction in which the saga was going in order to try to cover the fact that he was fired because the production was hugely over-budget and over-schedule. 😉

‘Seems’ is a word - often a guess - people use when they wish to use / value a narrative or opinion etc over or contrary to fact or evidence.

As for your book claims… most strange… as you stated previously it is also years after the event that Kurtz gave his, so far, undisputed account.

And we know for a fact that Rinzler’s ‘Making Of’ books contained retcons & revisionism (at the request of George himself, according to Rinzler) - and also omitted or downplayed people’s contributions to the making of the films (even the author himself as to the Lippincott interviews / archive).

You also stated it would be ‘ludicrous’ for Lucasfilm to have anything to do with Kurtz (after your claim of him being removed and replaced / Kurtz sending in his resignation letter) - and yet when presented with a document of Lucasfilm crediting Kurtz as a Production Consultant just two years later for ROTJ… you now claim this is ‘just a make-up for the public’.

Not forgetting the official ‘Once Upon A Galaxy: Making of Empire Strikes Back’ book… which has Kurtz involved in post-production on Empire - you should really give that a read as to Kurtz’ work on Empire throughout the whole process, it is quite illuminating.
 

Available evidence and facts don’t cease to exist because they are ignored. For many, they also remain above opinion and speculation - though you are most to welcome to your opinion 😉
 

(I’ll have to leave it there - though found it fun; especially the gap-filling guesswork and dismissal of statements and documents contrary to it. Let me know if you do ever find proof to back up your opinions to continue this 😃 )
 

Well for the most part I was not stating my opinions. I was just making reasonable conclusions based on what is available in several major sources (one of them you even labelled as “retcon & revisionism”, since it does not fit your story) and common sense.

In return, you provided some obscure fan club newsletter material to base your conclusions on (btw “Production Consultant” or whatever is not a Producer by any means) along with a bunch of opinions of your own that you claim as facts. In response to that fan club newsletter material, I can provide the film credits of ROTJ. I am sure if they listed just about every assistant of an assistant, he should be there somewhere, right?

At least we agree that this debate is pointless to continue. 😉

SilverWook said:

ray_afraid said:

Another point, the Rebels didn’t even know Luke was on the Death Star. The only one he told was Leia.
Who’s he having to explain himself too?

Surely, these guys asked where Luke got off to?

I dunno. I’ve never heard a grunt ask brass where a commander went. If they did, She could have told them he was on a secret mission or any such junk if she thought they’d get upset with the truth.
Which they wouldn’t & it continues to be a silly agrument.

^ Exactly!

Shopping Maul said:

I’ve said this before but a simple dialogue tweak would fix this. If Luke had said to Leia “I have to turn myself in, I’m endangering the mission. The Sith can feel my presence and know that we’re here. I’ll allow myself to be captured - Vader will take me to the Emperor himself and I will make sure he’s on the Death Star when the attack is launched”.

That would just make Luke a “captain obvious” to those in the audience who cannot make 1+1=2 on their own. On the other hand, it would ruin things in-universe. Luke probably knew and accepted that it was a suicide mission and that he would most likely die if the Death Star was blown off (whether or not Vader was redeemed). Why the hell would he tell such a thing to Leia and make her upset before such a crucial mission she was about to undertake? The way he handled it was very wise; he did not lie but he did not tell her that he is going off on a suicide mission either.

SilverWook said:
As Vader never says Leia’s name out loud, does he only sense Luke has a sister, but not her actual identity?

Apparently so. Which is interesting.

imperialscum said:

oojason said:

imperialscum said:

oojason said:

imperialscum said:

oojason said:

imperialscum said:

oojason said:

Kurtz was also asked to produce Revenge Of The Jedi - which he turned down for the reasons we all know…

That seems extremely unlikely. After falling out with Lucas, it would be ludicrous to think that Lucas would ask him to do anything for him after that.

Like Lucas asking him to stay around until the film was finished? As stated below in your reply to Wook? 😉

I did not want to imply that he was asked to stick around. I implied that they just let him stick around in order not to cause any trouble, like making a complaint to PGA, which could easily doom already fragile situation. 😉

The information that “he was asked to produce ROTJ” only ever came from Kurtz during his interviews (and of course secondary sources that refer to him saying so). I have not seen any other independent source confirming that information. Also, he never specified by WHO he was asked. Maybe by a voice in his head? Unless he was asked by Lucas (which is more or less impossible), it makes the whole thing completely irrelevant.

A ‘voice in his head?’ - no, somebody from Lucasfilm had obviously obviously spoke with Kurtz and offered him Producing work (or credit) on ROTJ - as of 1981, in the official Lucasfilm press release below… to which Kurtz must have agreed to.

This seems like a thing for the public not to question and wonder why he was removed and replaced. Lucasfilm always seemed to have tried to make it look like everything was fine and dandy. We did not even know he was removed until many years afterwards when people investigated behind-the-scenes for books and documentaries. Same goes for many other key figures and events of OT that we had only learned about many years after.

Even if this “Production Consultant” was an actual job (which it was not for sure) instead of just a make-up for the public, it is still by no means any kind of proof that he was offered to actually produce ROTJ. I mean you do not remove a producer in the middle of the film only to then offer him to produce a sequel.

oojason said:

oojason said:

• https://www.jeditemplearchives.com/specialreports/banthatracks/archives/banthatracks11.pdf

^ Bantha Tracks: Issue 11 (official Star Wars Newsletter), dated February 1981, re Revenge Of The Jedi and an official Lucasfilm press release:-

“Gary Kurtz, who produced ‘Star Wars’ and ‘Empire Strikes Back’ will serve as a Production Consultant on ‘Jedi’, while he prepares two of his own projects.”
 

So, not so ‘ludicrous’ as you think or claim, yes? 😉

As to ‘Independent source’? who are you expecting to know outside of Kurtz and high-end Lucasfilm employees that would have know he been offered the job of producing ROTJ? Do we need ‘independent sources’ to confirm Lynch was offered the chance to direct ROTJ, or Cronenberg etc?

The who and the when are irrelevant in the context of Kurtz stating he was asked to produce ROTJ - the statements came the man himself - to which nobody from Lucasfilm has challenged any of them - including George. You believe a professional and highly regarded producer (a job which requires inordinate levels of trust & professionalism) and would make continuous false claims he was offered the producer job for a famous film… when at any time the said employer - or employees - could turn around and deny it? His reputation and credibility would likely be ruined.

In fact, would a be a ‘ludicrous’ thing for Kurtz to claim… if it was not true, yes? 😉

Like said above, Lucasfilm extremely rarely challenged anything or anyone in order to keep things appear fine and dandy. In his later interviews, Kurtz seemed very resentful of his removal, so it would not surprise me if he made it up. After all, he did use ideas from Lucas’ pre-SW drafts and tried to present them as if they were ROTJ draft (when it actually did not exist in any form at the time). Also, he tried to claim that he left because he did not like the direction in which the saga was going in order to try to cover the fact that he was fired because the production was hugely over-budget and over-schedule. 😉

‘Seems’ is a word - often a guess - people use when they wish to use / value a narrative or opinion etc over or contrary to fact or evidence.

As for your book claims… most strange… as you stated previously it is also years after the event that Kurtz gave his, so far, undisputed account.

And we know for a fact that Rinzler’s ‘Making Of’ books contained retcons & revisionism (at the request of George himself, according to Rinzler) - and also omitted or downplayed people’s contributions to the making of the films (even the author himself as to the Lippincott interviews / archive).

You also stated it would be ‘ludicrous’ for Lucasfilm to have anything to do with Kurtz (after your claim of him being removed and replaced / Kurtz sending in his resignation letter) - and yet when presented with a document of Lucasfilm crediting Kurtz as a Production Consultant just two years later for ROTJ… you now claim this is ‘just a make-up for the public’.

Not forgetting the official ‘Once Upon A Galaxy: Making of Empire Strikes Back’ book… which has Kurtz involved in post-production on Empire - you should really give that a read as to Kurtz’ work on Empire throughout the whole process, it is quite illuminating.
 

Available evidence and facts don’t cease to exist because they are ignored. For many, they also remain above opinion and speculation - though you are most to welcome to your opinion 😉
 

(I’ll have to leave it there - though found it fun; especially the gap-filling guesswork and dismissal of statements and documents contrary to it. Let me know if you do ever find proof to back up your opinions to continue this 😃 )
 

In return, you provided some obscure fan club newsletter material to base your conclusions on (btw “Production Consultant” or whatever is not a Producer by any means) along with a bunch of opinions of your own that you claim as facts. In response to that fan club newsletter material, I can provide the film credits of ROTJ. I am sure if they listed just about every assistant of an assistant, he should be there somewhere, right?

At least we agree that this debate is pointless to continue. 😉

Dude, ooj provided a link to image of an official Lucasfilm press release from 1981 where Kurtz was credited as a ‘Production Consultant’ at the time - within a Bantha Tracks fan club article. ooj links to content like that so you know what you are going to be clicking on.

Of course Kurtz didn’t appear in the credits in ROTJ, becuase things changed over time - ooj never claimed otherwise. He was illustraing how ‘ludricous’ and wrong your earlier claim was that Lucas would have nothing do with Kurtz after ‘removing and replacing’ (your words and claim) him on Empire, and there was a working relationship there between them.

Are you trying to rubbish the actual Lucasfilm press release, or ooj posting a link to it via Bantha Tracks?
 

Considering he has highlighted how you use your opinion as a narrative, while ignoring statments and documents that conflict with them, and also twist words to give credence to your claim, it does appear you are bent on doubling down and carrying on.

I hope you do - this IS fun!

SilverWook said:

Arguably, Luke does distract Palpatine from micro managing the battle too closely, and Vader might have had an impact had he been outside in his TIE fighter.

As Vader never says Leia’s name out loud, does he only sense Luke has a sister, but not her actual identity?

Those are good points.

I would also bring up the question whether Luke even believed that rebels could actually defeat the imperial fleet and destroy the Death Star.

It’s also worth asking exactly how much chance Luke has of killing the Emperor in a straight-up fight. Vader’s betrayal clearly took Palpatine by surprise. But if Luke just raised his lightsaber and tried to cut him down, I’m sure he had some Force lightning up his sleeve even if Vader was out of the picture.

Broom Kid said:

Luke is the Jedi that is returning.

From where?

Either way you take the title, this movie is still about Luke. Nothing changes that.
Nobody here is saying that it was Anikin’s story all along. But I do think the title refers to Anikins return. Which is Lukes mission the entire film. He says it over n over.
That doesn’t retroactively change the focus of anything. It’s still Lukes story.

Shopping Maul said:

BedeHistory731 said:

Shopping Maul said:

imperialscum said:

Shopping Maul said:

I’ve said this before but a simple dialogue tweak would fix this. If Luke had said to Leia “I have to turn myself in, I’m endangering the mission. The Sith can feel my presence and know that we’re here. I’ll allow myself to be captured - Vader will take me to the Emperor himself and I will make sure he’s on the Death Star when the attack is launched”.

That would just make Luke a “captain obvious” to those in the audience who cannot make 1+1=2 on their own. On the other hand, it would ruin things in-universe. Luke probably knew and accepted that it was a suicide mission and that he would most likely die if the Death Star was blown off (whether or not Vader was redeemed). Why the hell would he tell such a thing to Leia and make her upset before such a crucial mission she was about to undertake? The way he handled it was very wise; he did not lie but he did not tell her that he is going off on a suicide mission either.

I’m not sure telling her that the guy who tortured her and stood by while her homeworld was obliterated was a) her father and b) strangely worthy of a crack at ‘the good side’, was much better than Luke taking on a heavy mission.

I must be the audience who can’t add 1+1. Luke’s only stated mission is the redemption of Vader. While insane violence is occurring outside, Luke’s primary focus is not losing his cool and avoiding a confrontation with Vader. When he finally kicks Vader’s butt - rather than follow through by doing anything proactive in terms of the war - Luke throws his weapon aside and declares himself a Jedi. People are being incinerated by a super-laser by order of the man standing before him and Luke chooses to disarm himself and declare his own enlightenment. How is any of this remotely helpful to the thousands of sentient beings suffering at the hands of the Imperial juggernaut? What in all this makes anyone think that Jedi Knights are a good idea, especially in a war situation?

Indeed you are the audience member that can’t add 1+1. I’m pretty sure Leia knew that Tarkin and The Emperor had more to do with what happened to her and her homeworld than Vader did (acting within their orders, not questioning them due to extensive brainwashing/basically being their slave). Remember how Vader criticized the Death Star at the meeting? If he was calling the shots, Tarkin and The Emperor wouldn’t have their plaything.

Also, for the “Luke could save so many lives thing,” what’s to say that killing The Emperor will stop the battle? The Star Destroyers, Death Star personnel, and Endor ground troops will still act under their initial orders to fight. Whatever Luke does, many will die in the fight. What he will do really doesn’t impact the battle outside and that’s fine.

Again, I maintain that you’re engaging in bad-faith criticism that really misses the point of the movie and the series, so I respectfully disagree with you.

You seem to be forgetting - as does this movie - who Darth Vader is. This is a guy whose first act in ANH was to lift a man up by his neck and crush his larynx. Vader wasn’t some misunderstood kindly old man. He was a brute and a killer. Sure, he may have questioned the value of the Death Star, but he was by means just an unwilling spectator. Look at the way he murdered everyone who disagreed with him in TESB, or had Han screaming in genuine agony on a torture rack purely to get Luke’s attention.

I know, that’s the entire point. The message of the movie is that anyone can change, even the most feared person in the galaxy. His previous atrocities only reinforce how shocking it is that he was able to return from darkness. It’s very much a hopeful conclusion, not the messed up thing you’re painting it as.

So if you were in Luke’s situation you wouldn’t try to get the Emperor in a headlock and order him to call off the battle? I know I would. So would Han or Chewie or Wedge or Leia or just about anyone who isn’t hung up on space-Buddhism.

Once again, that’s the whole point. The Jedi aren’t like other people in the galaxy, they’re more selfless and nonviolent. Any normal person would just kill Palpatine, but Luke held out hope in Vader until the end, and it paid off. This reinforces Yoda’s teachings in ESB: “A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.” It would be against the spirit of the OT for Luke to just kill Palpatine.

It’s not about what Luke could have done so much as what he should have intended. Again I return to my Ewok party scenario. Let’s say Wedge asks “hey Luke, what happened up there man?”. Luke says “well, I was in the throne room with Vader and the Emperor when Palpatine started blowing our ships up”. Wedge would be like “damn, so you kicked his ass right? 'cos I would’ve kicked his ass man!”. Luke would have to admit “uh, well no, 'cos as a Jedi I’m not really allowed to get angry. I mean I did lose my temper and bring Vader to his knees at one point…”. So Wedge would be like “oh cool, so then you stopped the bad guys right?”. Luke - “uh, not exactly 'cos Vader’s my dad and again, violence is just not in keeping with where I need to be spiritually, so I threw my lightsaber away.” Wedge looks dumbfounded. “But” Luke says “on the plus side this does make me a Jedi so…every cloud…”

Yeah, Luke having to explain all this to his friends would be awkward. But I think they would understand that Luke’s philosophy requires him to be nonviolent whenever possible, and they would take comfort in the fact that Vader and Palpatine are dead, no matter how they died. I certainly don’t think he would be branded a war criminal for it.