Most Disappointing / Satisfying Aspect of the Sequel Trilogy? — Page 19

The most disappointing aspect was that it started with TFA as a soul-less and awful rehash.

The most satisfying aspect was that it started with TFA as a soul-less and awful rehash… and therefore let me know clearly, from the very beginning, that it will be a major train wreck so I could avoid wasting my time on the rest of it.

The dead speak!

DominicCobb said:

Again, that’s the point.

The point of what? The entire Disney trilogy? Also, why shouldn’t Rey be a Skywalker (whether she is Luke’s or Leia’s kid) if this saga is centered around the Skywalker family?

Completely agree it’s all marketing, I think it also shows some of the split personality the ST has, the trilogy can’t decide if “Skywalker” should end or carry on forever symbolically, almost synonymous with the force. Rey never really beat her identity crisis, neither did the sequels.

I think the issue is a lot of people wanted “Rey Solana” to be the message. That anyone can be a Jedi. TROS keeps this idea but renames it, now anyone can be a Skywalker. It actually builds on the themes of the TLJ, where Luke Skywalker was a legend. Now, anyone can be a legend.

OutboundFlight said:

I think the issue is a lot of people wanted “Rey Solana” to be the message. That anyone can be a Jedi. TROS keeps this idea but renames it, now anyone can be a Skywalker. It actually builds on the themes of the TLJ, where Luke Skywalker was a legend. Now, anyone can be a legend.

I really don’t agree with this. Why does Rey have to be an honorary Skywalker in order to show that anyone can be a legend? Why can’t Rey make her own legacy, beyond the words “Skywalker” and “Palpatine”? Is it impossible to be a legend unless you change your last name to Skywalker? This is the kind of stuff TLJ was trying to avoid, so I don’t understand why you think Rey Palpawalker builds on the themes of TLJ any more than keeping Rey Nobody would.

The issue with her taking the name Skywalker is that it is a quixotic conclusion to her character arc. Rey spends three movies searching for a family, and ends by taking the name of a family that is now vanished from the galaxy. Sure, she feels comfortable carrying on the Skywalker legacy (at least the good one(s) anyway), but this does little to satisfy her need for a real living family in whatever form that takes. It’s a big missed opportunity because now there is a galaxy of young people who have been stripped of their parents, potentially forever. Will they all take the name Skywalker? Will Finn? There is no indication of this, and it throws into tension her emotional reunion with Finn and Poe, her presumed new ‘family’. The movie also seems to forget that Rey’s real parents died heroically to save her, so not taking their name is another instance of the film throwing a rake in front of itself to trip over.

Beyond these particular tensions, there is an even larger tension with the final scene, and it has to do with the hero’s journey. In the archetypal tale our hero goes forth on adventure and returns home fundamentally changed in some way. The final scene of a mythic tale gives answer to the final question regarding the hero, that of whether they will return to society or whether the journey has changed them too much to ever truly return. Frodo cannot return to the Shire, instead sailing to the Undying Lands to be healed. Luke does return to society in the final scene of Return of the Jedi, leaving the ghosts of the past to join in the celebration. So what does Rey do?

The penultimate scene of TROS implies that despite being changed by her journey, she will return to society and live happily among them. This is a sufficient answer and completes her arc. However the final scene flips this assumption. Now she is reviving the ghosts of the past through her name and ending the film alone on a desert planet. If she were merely going there to bury the past it wouldn’t necessarily be an issue, but the name implies a connection with this isolation that she will never be rid of. She both does and does not return to society simultaneously, and this is why I find it so frustrating.

That EVERYTHING set up in one movie, was completely ignored or even worse, had the meaning reversed, in the next film.

StarkillerAG said:

OutboundFlight said:

I think the issue is a lot of people wanted “Rey Solana” to be the message. That anyone can be a Jedi. TROS keeps this idea but renames it, now anyone can be a Skywalker. It actually builds on the themes of the TLJ, where Luke Skywalker was a legend. Now, anyone can be a legend.

I really don’t agree with this. Why does Rey have to be an honorary Skywalker in order to show that anyone can be a legend? Why can’t Rey make her own legacy, beyond the words “Skywalker” and “Palpatine”? Is it impossible to be a legend unless you change your last name to Skywalker? This is the kind of stuff TLJ was trying to avoid, so I don’t understand why you think Rey Palpawalker builds on the themes of TLJ any more than keeping Rey Nobody would.

I suppose we saw different TLJs, because it’s clear to me the only impact Luke had at the Battle of Crait was his name. Had he been some random Jedi, no one would have cared. Then Luke claims he will not be the Last Jedi, and we Rey: evidence that she will carry on the traditions, not create new ones. It’s not ideal: I agree there’s a lot of errors in the concept, what about the other Jedi etc. But I see it as consistent throughout the ST.

NeverarGreat said:

The issue with her taking the name Skywalker is that it is a quixotic conclusion to her character arc. Rey spends three movies searching for a family, and ends by taking the name of a family that is now vanished from the galaxy. Sure, she feels comfortable carrying on the Skywalker legacy (at least the good one(s) anyway), but this does little to satisfy her need for a real living family in whatever form that takes. It’s a big missed opportunity because now there is a galaxy of young people who have been stripped of their parents, potentially forever. Will they all take the name Skywalker? Will Finn? There is no indication of this, and it throws into tension her emotional reunion with Finn and Poe, her presumed new ‘family’. The movie also seems to forget that Rey’s real parents died heroically to save her, so not taking their name is another instance of the film throwing a rake in front of itself to trip over.

Beyond these particular tensions, there is an even larger tension with the final scene, and it has to do with the hero’s journey. In the archetypal tale our hero goes forth on adventure and returns home fundamentally changed in some way. The final scene of a mythic tale gives answer to the final question regarding the hero, that of whether they will return to society or whether the journey has changed them too much to ever truly return. Frodo cannot return to the Shire, instead sailing to the Undying Lands to be healed. Luke does return to society in the final scene of Return of the Jedi, leaving the ghosts of the past to join in the celebration. So what does Rey do?

The penultimate scene of TROS implies that despite being changed by her journey, she will return to society and live happily among them. This is a sufficient answer and completes her arc. However the final scene flips this assumption. Now she is reviving the ghosts of the past through her name and ending the film alone on a desert planet. If she were merely going there to bury the past it wouldn’t necessarily be an issue, but the name implies a connection with this isolation that she will never be rid of. She both does and does not return to society simultaneously, and this is why I find it so frustrating.

I never interested the final scene as Rey forever being the Last Jedi. She only came there to end off the saga. After looking into the binary sunrise (symbolizing a new beginning) Rey will go back to her friends and hopefully rebuild the Jedi Order.

And Rey still struggles with the ideas of family. It’s just not in the ways most interpreted based off TLJ. She has already answered the obvious question of if she can have a family in the resistance (she was never too sad by the fact she’s a nobody). Instead, it’s all about if she can keep it: she is afraid the others will distance her for being the granddaughter of Palpatine. It’s more a test of what she has accomplished so far, after spending TFA and most of TLJ yearning to return to the past, she now stands firmly with the future.

Overall, I think a lot of the hate towards TLJ comes to… ok I’m sorry for bringing this quote up again… but your subversion of expectations.

TLJ set some concepts up and I think maybe in part of the constant debate that’s ensued over the past two years, the majority has come to a basic conclusion of what Episode 9 must do. Without considering RJ left things very open.
–Rey should struggle with being no one
–Rey should find a balance between the old and new
–Rey should rebuild the Jedi Order

The thing is TROS goes in another direction that remains consistent with The Last Jedi. Rey never was too shocked about being no one in TLJ. She cried, yes, but an hour later was happy as can be and two hours later talking to Leia about rebuilding. So why do we have to follow Rey coming to terms with something she already did off-screen? TROS gives us something new, and honestly, I was invested in whether Rey would join Palpatine and we’d get a dark Rey / good Ben fight. Kinda sad we didn’t actually.

OutboundFlight said:

StarkillerAG said:

OutboundFlight said:

I think the issue is a lot of people wanted “Rey Solana” to be the message. That anyone can be a Jedi. TROS keeps this idea but renames it, now anyone can be a Skywalker. It actually builds on the themes of the TLJ, where Luke Skywalker was a legend. Now, anyone can be a legend.

I really don’t agree with this. Why does Rey have to be an honorary Skywalker in order to show that anyone can be a legend? Why can’t Rey make her own legacy, beyond the words “Skywalker” and “Palpatine”? Is it impossible to be a legend unless you change your last name to Skywalker? This is the kind of stuff TLJ was trying to avoid, so I don’t understand why you think Rey Palpawalker builds on the themes of TLJ any more than keeping Rey Nobody would.

I suppose we saw different TLJs, because it’s clear to me the only impact Luke had at the Battle of Crait was his name. Had he been some random Jedi, no one would have cared. Then Luke claims he will not be the Last Jedi, and we Rey: evidence that she will carry on the traditions, not create new ones. It’s not ideal: I agree there’s a lot of errors in the concept, what about the other Jedi etc. But I see it as consistent throughout the ST.

I guess we have seen different movies, because I never got the implication that Rey was going to become an honorary Skywalker from TLJ. Luke said “I will not be the last Jedi,” not “I will not be the last Skywalker.” And just because Luke’s last name is famous doesn’t mean Rey has to adopt it.

NeverarGreat said:

The issue with her taking the name Skywalker is that it is a quixotic conclusion to her character arc. Rey spends three movies searching for a family, and ends by taking the name of a family that is now vanished from the galaxy. Sure, she feels comfortable carrying on the Skywalker legacy (at least the good one(s) anyway), but this does little to satisfy her need for a real living family in whatever form that takes. It’s a big missed opportunity because now there is a galaxy of young people who have been stripped of their parents, potentially forever. Will they all take the name Skywalker? Will Finn? There is no indication of this, and it throws into tension her emotional reunion with Finn and Poe, her presumed new ‘family’. The movie also seems to forget that Rey’s real parents died heroically to save her, so not taking their name is another instance of the film throwing a rake in front of itself to trip over.

Beyond these particular tensions, there is an even larger tension with the final scene, and it has to do with the hero’s journey. In the archetypal tale our hero goes forth on adventure and returns home fundamentally changed in some way. The final scene of a mythic tale gives answer to the final question regarding the hero, that of whether they will return to society or whether the journey has changed them too much to ever truly return. Frodo cannot return to the Shire, instead sailing to the Undying Lands to be healed. Luke does return to society in the final scene of Return of the Jedi, leaving the ghosts of the past to join in the celebration. So what does Rey do?

The penultimate scene of TROS implies that despite being changed by her journey, she will return to society and live happily among them. This is a sufficient answer and completes her arc. However the final scene flips this assumption. Now she is reviving the ghosts of the past through her name and ending the film alone on a desert planet. If she were merely going there to bury the past it wouldn’t necessarily be an issue, but the name implies a connection with this isolation that she will never be rid of. She both does and does not return to society simultaneously, and this is why I find it so frustrating.

I never interested the final scene as Rey forever being the Last Jedi. She only came there to end off the saga. After looking into the binary sunrise (symbolizing a new beginning) Rey will go back to her friends and hopefully rebuild the Jedi Order.

I agree with this. I’ve never understood the argument that “Rey ends the movie on Tatooine, therefore she’s going to spend the rest of her life there!” She was just going there to bury the sabers at Luke’s childhood home. After that she’ll probably go back to the Resistance and continue the Jedi legacy.

And Rey still struggles with the ideas of family. It’s just not in the ways most interpreted based off TLJ. She has already answered the obvious question of if she can have a family in the resistance (she was never too sad by the fact she’s a nobody). Instead, it’s all about if she can keep it: she is afraid the others will distance her for being the granddaughter of Palpatine. It’s more a test of what she has accomplished so far, after spending TFA and most of TLJ yearning to return to the past, she now stands firmly with the future.

I understand that point of view, I just wish it was made more clear in the movie. As it stands, Rey’s character arc in TROS is basically, “Oh no, this evil person is my ancestor! Will I become good like my friends or evil like him?” That’s essentially just Luke’s arc repeated again, so it seems less original than keeping Rey as a nobody.

OutboundFlight said:

Overall, I think a lot of the hate towards TLJ comes to… ok I’m sorry for bringing this quote up again… but your subversion of expectations.

TLJ set some concepts up and I think maybe in part of the constant debate that’s ensued over the past two years, the majority has come to a basic conclusion of what Episode 9 must do. Without considering RJ left things very open.
–Rey should struggle with being no one
–Rey should find a balance between the old and new
–Rey should rebuild the Jedi Order

I understand your point of view. It is kind of hypocritical that TLJ fans constantly say, “You just didn’t like TLJ because your fan theories didn’t come true!” while simultaneously making fan theories about TROS and being upset when they don’t come true.

The thing is TROS goes in another direction that remains consistent with The Last Jedi. Rey never was too shocked about being no one in TLJ. She cried, yes, but an hour later was happy as can be and two hours later talking to Leia about rebuilding. So why do we have to follow Rey coming to terms with something she already did off-screen? TROS gives us something new, and honestly, I was invested in whether Rey would join Palpatine and we’d get a dark Rey / good Ben fight. Kinda sad we didn’t actually.

Maybe you were invested, but a lot of people weren’t. I feel like TROS shouldn’t have brought up Rey’s parentage at all. Rey already came to terms with it in TLJ, and most people didn’t like the “I am your father” ripoff twist pulled out at the last minute.

Comment I Had to Repeat™

I never interested the final scene as Rey forever being the Last Jedi. She only came there to end off the saga. After looking into the binary sunrise (symbolizing a new beginning) Rey will go back to her friends and hopefully rebuild the Jedi Order.

I agree with this. I’ve never understood the argument that “Rey ends the movie on Tatooine, therefore she’s going to spend the rest of her life there!” She was just going there to bury the sabers at Luke’s childhood home. After that she’ll probably go back to the Resistance and continue the Jedi legacy.

Obviously I don’t think Rey will stay on Tatooine in universe, the issue is with the imagery of ending her story here. It sends a subconscious message about her continued isolation that I don’t think was intentional but nevertheless undercuts the effect of the previous scene.

StarkillerAG said:

OutboundFlight said:

StarkillerAG said:

OutboundFlight said:

I think the issue is a lot of people wanted “Rey Solana” to be the message. That anyone can be a Jedi. TROS keeps this idea but renames it, now anyone can be a Skywalker. It actually builds on the themes of the TLJ, where Luke Skywalker was a legend. Now, anyone can be a legend.

I really don’t agree with this. Why does Rey have to be an honorary Skywalker in order to show that anyone can be a legend? Why can’t Rey make her own legacy, beyond the words “Skywalker” and “Palpatine”? Is it impossible to be a legend unless you change your last name to Skywalker? This is the kind of stuff TLJ was trying to avoid, so I don’t understand why you think Rey Palpawalker builds on the themes of TLJ any more than keeping Rey Nobody would.

I suppose we saw different TLJs, because it’s clear to me the only impact Luke had at the Battle of Crait was his name. Had he been some random Jedi, no one would have cared. Then Luke claims he will not be the Last Jedi, and we Rey: evidence that she will carry on the traditions, not create new ones. It’s not ideal: I agree there’s a lot of errors in the concept, what about the other Jedi etc. But I see it as consistent throughout the ST.

I guess we have seen different movies, because I never got the implication that Rey was going to become an honorary Skywalker from TLJ. Luke said “I will not be the last Jedi,” not “I will not be the last Skywalker.” And just because Luke’s last name is famous doesn’t mean Rey has to adopt it.

No, she definitely doesn’t. She could have not adopted the name and it would have been fine. But it’s more powerful if she literally takes up the name of a family she has chosen to be a part of. It’s RJ’s “I will be a Jedi” just more direct.

NeverarGreat said:

The issue with her taking the name Skywalker is that it is a quixotic conclusion to her character arc. Rey spends three movies searching for a family, and ends by taking the name of a family that is now vanished from the galaxy. Sure, she feels comfortable carrying on the Skywalker legacy (at least the good one(s) anyway), but this does little to satisfy her need for a real living family in whatever form that takes. It’s a big missed opportunity because now there is a galaxy of young people who have been stripped of their parents, potentially forever. Will they all take the name Skywalker? Will Finn? There is no indication of this, and it throws into tension her emotional reunion with Finn and Poe, her presumed new ‘family’. The movie also seems to forget that Rey’s real parents died heroically to save her, so not taking their name is another instance of the film throwing a rake in front of itself to trip over.

Beyond these particular tensions, there is an even larger tension with the final scene, and it has to do with the hero’s journey. In the archetypal tale our hero goes forth on adventure and returns home fundamentally changed in some way. The final scene of a mythic tale gives answer to the final question regarding the hero, that of whether they will return to society or whether the journey has changed them too much to ever truly return. Frodo cannot return to the Shire, instead sailing to the Undying Lands to be healed. Luke does return to society in the final scene of Return of the Jedi, leaving the ghosts of the past to join in the celebration. So what does Rey do?

The penultimate scene of TROS implies that despite being changed by her journey, she will return to society and live happily among them. This is a sufficient answer and completes her arc. However the final scene flips this assumption. Now she is reviving the ghosts of the past through her name and ending the film alone on a desert planet. If she were merely going there to bury the past it wouldn’t necessarily be an issue, but the name implies a connection with this isolation that she will never be rid of. She both does and does not return to society simultaneously, and this is why I find it so frustrating.

I never interested the final scene as Rey forever being the Last Jedi. She only came there to end off the saga. After looking into the binary sunrise (symbolizing a new beginning) Rey will go back to her friends and hopefully rebuild the Jedi Order.

I agree with this. I’ve never understood the argument that “Rey ends the movie on Tatooine, therefore she’s going to spend the rest of her life there!” She was just going there to bury the sabers at Luke’s childhood home. After that she’ll probably go back to the Resistance and continue the Jedi legacy.

And Rey still struggles with the ideas of family. It’s just not in the ways most interpreted based off TLJ. She has already answered the obvious question of if she can have a family in the resistance (she was never too sad by the fact she’s a nobody). Instead, it’s all about if she can keep it: she is afraid the others will distance her for being the granddaughter of Palpatine. It’s more a test of what she has accomplished so far, after spending TFA and most of TLJ yearning to return to the past, she now stands firmly with the future.

I understand that point of view, I just wish it was made more clear in the movie. As it stands, Rey’s character arc in TROS is basically, “Oh no, this evil person is my ancestor! Will I become good like my friends or evil like him?” That’s essentially just Luke’s arc repeated again, so it seems less original than keeping Rey as a nobody.

I feel differently. In theory, ROTJ was about will Luke turn evil. But I don’t think they really ever push that forward. It’s only with Palpatine that it’s even brought up, at the end of the story, and even then Luke is still convinced that Vader will turn good until the very end. Rey is more direct. She has dark side force powers that she struggles to control, which (appears) to have a tragic effect. It felt more grounded in the story for me.